Downtown Arena!

[skip-zip]

The objective is not always to fill an arena. The objective is to have sufficient capacity.

The objective is to get as many people to attend games as possible...period.

[Dave in Green]

The objective is certainly not to turn thousands of fans away by removing seating capacity from an arena that occasionally sells out. The objective should be to properly size an arena to handle the biggest expected crowds with the understanding that it will not always be filled to capacity because all games played will not be of equal interest to fans.

I said earlier that Zips attendance had been steadily rising. But it actually fell last season when the team struggled after peaking in 2012-13 when the Zips were on their record winning streak and student and fan interest was at an all-time high. Just two seasons ago, the Zips averaged 3,782 for all home games and 4,553 for all conference home games. Reducing capacity to just 4,000 seats makes no sense.

[Balsy]

Goodluck getting people to attend games at the JAR. I'm sorry if I have sounded very negative or debby-downer on this thread lately...but seriously, if we want this program to "Think Bigger" or be bigger, it'll need facilities greater than the JAR. Period. I know there are many here that are scared a new stadium would get as little turn-out as the JAR has...I'm worried about that too...but it's a losing battle to say "Bulid attendance the JAR then build a new arena". It's not going to happen. The JAR is embarrassing for D-I team to play in. The University of Dayton has a better basketball arena.

[Spin]

The biggest reason for bad attendance IS the JAR. For any number of reasons.

[GoZips]

The Zips already have a practice facility. Central-Hower has TWO full sized courts complete with

fan seating, restrooms, scoreboards, parking and even existing vending machines.

Akron needs an excellent arena for a number of reasons. Not the least of which is that the dump

no longer suits the needs of the University.

Pretty sure alternative plans exist if the tax levy fails.

[ZachTheZip]

Pretty sure alternative plans exist if the tax levy fails.

I would guarantee they exist. The tax plan is the one you try first, because it's the cheapest for the university and it makes the city and county leaders happy.

As for anybody not liking the plan because UA is on the hook for operating expenses if it is in the red, that's still many millions of dollars cheaper than financing construction of the arena and then operating it independently without aid from the county. You are either paying for operating expenses, or paying for operating expenses while in debt from the construction costs.

[Balsy]

Amen Zach.

[Zipmeister]

The objective is not always to fill an arena. The objective is to have sufficient capacity.

I remember Al McGuire saying at the start of every game he would look up to see if the seat in the last row of each corner of the Mecca was filled.

Apparently he didn't understand the objective of having an arena (which, by the way, was owned by the city and rented by Marquette for basketball games).

[GP1]

The biggest reason for bad attendance IS the JAR. For any number of reasons.

My back agrees.

[GP1]

I would guarantee they exist. The tax plan is the one you try first, because it's the cheapest for the university and it makes the city and county leaders happy.

As for anybody not liking the plan because UA is on the hook for operating expenses if it is in the red, that's still many millions of dollars cheaper than financing construction of the arena and then operating it independently without aid from the county. You are either paying for operating expenses, or paying for operating expenses while in debt from the construction costs.

I could care less if the county leaders are happy.

There is an old Ben Franklin (maybe) saying used in construction, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low prices is forgotten." Change out the words poor quality for "a bad deal" and you might have the result of this deal. UofA is going to have to live with this deal for a looooong time if it passes. Probably longer than the years many of us have left in our lives.

[skip-zip]

The biggest reason for bad attendance IS the JAR. For any number of reasons.

Sometimes I feel like we are going back to the same things that we felt about 6 years ago, when many of us were certain that people would be filling up football games, if we just had a better and more comfortable venue.

I think what you'll find is that people who already want to go to games are the ones clamoring for more comfort, but you have to WANT to go to games for that to make an impact.

The lack of Akron Zips basketball fans in the area is the primary reason why people aren't at the JAR.

Basketball fans would jump on our bandwagon and flock to JAR if Akron basketball was accomplishing something of significance. They wouldn't care.

[Dr Z]

Ben Franklin said, "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low prices is forgotten." Change out the words poor quality for "a bad deal" and you might have the result of this deal. UofA is going to have to live with this deal for a looooong time if it passes. Probably longer than the years many of us have left in our lives.

Good point, great quote.

[K92]

+1 Skip.

Facilities are completely overrated when it comes to attendance. Back in the day when many of the NASCAR tracks were absolute dumps, they were selling out on a regular basis. Now the facilities are worlds better and they struggle to sell tickets.

It is a topic made for a separate discussion, but there is an awful lot that the sports world should have learned from the decline of NASCAR, but I see a lot of the same mistakes being made.

[GP1]

Facilities are completely overrated when it comes to attendance. Back in the day when many of the NASCAR tracks were absolute dumps, they were selling out on a regular basis. Now the facilities are worlds better and they struggle to sell tickets.

It is a topic made for a separate discussion, but there is an awful lot that the sports world should have learned from the decline of NASCAR, but I see a lot of the same mistakes being made.

I think it is a matter of right sizing the new structure. Contrary to popular thought on this board, the arena doesn't need to be 10,000 seats. 8,000 is enough....8,500 tops. It drives me nuts when I hear about what a great arena OU as and when I see them on TV, half the arena is empty....It's a joke. Right now, the season ticket base (the real prize in ticket selling) is less than 4,000 based upon current attendance. If 8,000 is good enough for an ACC school like Miami, it's good enough for Akron.

"But GP1, that's short sighted. We are in the middle of a building process that will give us that many season tickets." Probably not, but let's assume that in 50 years, UofA is selling 8,000 season basketball tickets. The simple answer is to raise ticket prices if they want more money. If season tickets are that much of a prized possession in 50 years, then everyone will be willing to pay more for tickets.

BTW, Charlotte Motor Speedway has plans to tear down part of the stands they built not that long ago along the back straightaway. Outdoor stands are easy to remove. A new arena will be around for 80 years.

[Dave in Green]

Is anyone on here recommending an arena with more than 8,500-seat capacity? A quick internet search reveals the percentage of seats sold at all SEC and Big 12 schools, and a deeper search would reveal more. The SEC and Big 12 both average in the low 70% capacity range of paid attendance at all home games, ranging from near 100% for the very best teams to below 50% for the perennial losers.

Using 70% average capacity as a measurement, with 8,500 seats the Zips would have to average 5,950 tickets sold for each home game to reach that average percentage. That would be quite a stretch from the Zips' current home average attendance. One potential game changer would be moving to a more prestigious conference with bigger name schools, which would undoubtedly boost Zips attendance. That just points out that whatever UA does for an arena needs to be part of a bigger plan, and we really don't know what that plan is any more than we know the fine details of the proposed downtown arena plan. The fewer details we have the more speculative our opinions.

[Aaron]

Personally, I would love to see something similar in size and setup to Savage Arena - the capacity was recently reduced to 7,300 (a great size for the Zips right now IMO), and was previously 9,000 (a good size for future planning, if we play basketball in a bigger name conference).

Savage is a good example of how arenas can host other events and be a good compromise between college basketball and civic activities. Yes, the seats are a little far away from the court, but not nearly as bad as Miami and parts of OU.

[zippy5]

+1 Skip.

Facilities are completely overrated when it comes to attendance. Back in the day when many of the NASCAR tracks were absolute dumps, they were selling out on a regular basis. Now the facilities are worlds better and they struggle to sell tickets.

It is a topic made for a separate discussion, but there is an awful lot that the sports world should have learned from the decline of NASCAR, but I see a lot of the same mistakes being made.

Please don't compare college basketball to nascar ever again

[Zipgrad01]

+1 Skip.

Facilities are completely overrated when it comes to attendance. Back in the day when many of the NASCAR tracks were absolute dumps, they were selling out on a regular basis. Now the facilities are worlds better and they struggle to sell tickets.

It is a topic made for a separate discussion, but there is an awful lot that the sports world should have learned from the decline of NASCAR, but I see a lot of the same mistakes being made.

HD tv and internet webstreams are killing attendance. Most people simply find it cheaper, easier and more enjoyable to sit at home and watch the game in the comfort of their own home. NASCAR is a great example of how this has affected attendance.

[K92]

Please don't compare college basketball to nascar ever again

Sorry to have touched a nerve there. If this NASCAR comparison bothered you the one I have refrained from making in the new uniform thread might make your head explode.

[GP1]

Please don't compare college basketball to nascar ever again

The Zips 2013 NCAA Tournament appearance against VCU was similar to watching Cale Yarborough go over the wall in Darlington in 1965.

[zippy5]

Sorry to have touched a nerve there. If this NASCAR comparison bothered you the one I have refrained from making in the new uniform thread might make your head explode.

No, we should not cover our jerseys in sunoco logos

[Spin]

Sometimes I feel like we are going back to the same things that we felt about 6 years ago, when many of us were certain that people would be filling up football games, if we just had a better and more comfortable venue.

I think what you'll find is that people who already want to go to games are the ones clamoring for more comfort, but you have to WANT to go to games for that to make an impact.

The lack of Akron Zips basketball fans in the area is the primary reason why people aren't at the JAR.

Basketball fans would jump on our bandwagon and flock to JAR if Akron basketball was accomplishing something of significance. They wouldn't care.

Attendance has gone up over the Rubber Bowl era. The problem was I-a-don't-know Ball. You have to have an entertaining product in your venue.

Perfect example, during the Ted Stepien era I was at Cavs games when there were 1500 other fans there. A week later the Force had 18,000. Those Cavs games were classic, we sat in the loges, and the security guard came over and shot the shit with us. He was lonely. We sat with Howie Chizek. Try that now...

Anyway, there is no lack of Cavs fans now...

[Spin]

Comparing college basketball to NASCAR (which has been run into the ground by Brian France) is ridiculous.

If a new venue doesn't get more fans in the seats, then explain the huge attendance growth when the Cavs moved to the Richfield Coliseum. When the Indians/Aeros moved to Canal Park. When the Tribe moved to Jacob's Field.

And going by attendance percentages in the SEC means nothing without either attendance figures or seating capacity. How about some real figures?

This is the same market that had (not one but the only two profitable) indoor soccer teams in the 80's. We broke AA baseball attendance records and drew more fans than all but 5 AAA teams. Broke Arena Football records (and was the only profitable franchise in the AFL-AFL2 era). This market will support a winner.

You just have to reach them, and you have to give them a suitable place for adults to go watch.

[Dave in Green]

...And going by attendance percentages in the SEC means nothing without either attendance figures or seating capacity. How about some real figures? ...

Try listening with the intent to understand. The point was purely about proper sizing of a new arena based on the average percentage of seats sold in a typical college basketball arena. The SEC and Big 12 happened to show up in a quick search, and both averaged in the low 70% range. Do you have any data to suggest that 70% of capacity is not a reasonable average estimate to plan for properly sizing a college basketball arena?

[UAZip0510]

Sometimes I feel like we are going back to the same things that we felt about 6 years ago, when many of us were certain that people would be filling up football games, if we just had a better and more comfortable venue.

I think what you'll find is that people who already want to go to games are the ones clamoring for more comfort, but you have to WANT to go to games for that to make an impact.

The lack of Akron Zips basketball fans in the area is the primary reason why people aren't at the JAR.

Basketball fans would jump on our bandwagon and flock to JAR if Akron basketball was accomplishing something of significance. They wouldn't care.

I disagree pretty heavily with this. I know several people who prefer to watch the Zips at a bar or at home because they hate going to the JAR. The football stadium would be filled if it had a decent product...we should see that this season. The JAR isn't the only reason for low attendance, but if you don't think sitting on those awful bleachers for 2 and 1/2 hours, not having a real student section, the poor sight lines, and varying climate (it gets sticky-hot in there at times) don't have an impact on the average fan coming, you're mistaken.