Downtown Arena!

[Spin]

Looking at what is being done in Youngstown is interesting. It does bring to mind some other questions I have.

1. Will the Zips be a profit or loss for the new arena? How many tickets have to be sold for the Zips to see a penny?

2. If the new arena is opened, it immediately becomes competition for the arena in Youngstown because of the close proximity of the arenas. There are only so many tired Baby Boomer acts to fill an arena in this size range and markets, although I'm sure 38 Special would play anywhere to any size crowd. What is the market share gain for those kinds of acts for the Akron arena and how will that translate into profitable revenue for the venue?

3. With additional competition, the Youngstown and Akron arenas will be in bidding wars for acts to perform. How much are the booking costs potentially going to go up and how will that impact profitability? Market share if frequently bought, so the Akron arena will have to pay more than the current rate the Youngstown arena is. I can see business managers really being able to engage in bidding wars between the two arenas.

An interesting point that came to mind when I saw DiG's post was how little money the Youngstown arena makes. $384K isn't that much money. If I was pressed to give up a number I thought an arena like that should produce in a year, I'd probably say something around $2 million. Last I heard and someone please correct this if I'm wrong, the annual Athletic Department budget is around $14 million. Let's assume the County is generous and UofA would get half the $384K profit, they are only looking at $192K for playing there. That's 1.3% of the budget. It doesn't cover KD's salary. I thought we were supposed to Think Bigger. This is some pretty small thinking if it is the case. Sort of reinforces my belief UofA should wait until it can afford it's own arena and perhaps contract with a building manager like University of South Carolina does at Colonial Life Arena is that makes sense.

The more I read about this new arena, the more confused I get and the more questions I have. On the surface, it could make sense, but the details don't work for me on a lot of levels and I think I'm in the dark probably as much as everyone else about the details. I don't doubt an arena can be build one way or another. I worry about the money.

If UofA does this, they need to make it work and not come crying back to everyone in 15-20 years asking for $100 million to build their own arena. They get one shot at this in my lifetime and it needs to work.

1. Are the Zips making a "profit" now? We need something to compare with.

2. It won't be in competition with Youngstown's arena (or those in Toledo, Erie, Wheeling, etc) because the myopic planners are making the floor space too freaking small. You're not getting their (or any other)sports teams, the circus, Disney on Ice, or anything else that requires a full sized arena floor.

Without all those acts, even IF the Canton Charge isn't contracted to the Civic Center long term and they want to move to Akron, you're looking at 24 dates. Add what, 14 for the Zips, and a handful of concerts, and earning a profit is a pipe dream. Whether or not you bring in a building manager to get your dates filled.

Nobody here will address that obvious shortcoming, but there's no way in hell I'm voting for that. With or without the University tied to it.

[GP1]

How much of that $14 million budget is building maintenance/paying off Incision...is that included? I simply can't see turning any sort of a profit on a new stadium if we were to burden the entire cost of building/operating. I think the best deal UA can get is the one that is being presented here.

I don't know how the maintenance costs are distributed. UofA has a facilities and maintenance department so the cost could be assigned to them, or the Athletic Department. Either way, UofA is in charge of the costs regardless of the silo the money comes out of.

In terms of the best deal, I have an idea. We will have a new President in coming months. New ideas come with new President. Let's give the guy a couple of years to come up with a private solution before jumping in bed with the County/City.

[GP1]

1. Are the Zips making a "profit" now? We need something to compare with. We'll never know this until we know what the deal with the arena will be.

2. It won't be in competition with Youngstown's arena (or those in Toledo, Erie, Wheeling, etc) because the myopic planners are making the floor space too freaking small. You're not getting their (or any other)sports teams, the circus, Disney on Ice, or anything else that requires a full sized arena floor. Floor space may or may not be a problem. This depends on how they engineer the floor and seating. Maybe they can replace events that require ice with those that do not. Disney on Ice and the circus are two days a year. Seems like that would be easy to replace with some concert dates.

When I lived in the midwest, Grand Rapids was one of my favorite places to travel to for business. Grand Rapids Arena is Van Andel Arena and is really a nice arena and there is a lot to do in downtown Grand Rapids. Maybe something like this could work in Akron. They are talking similar size arenas. Grand Rapids does have a minor league hockey team that is somewhat popular. NE Ohio has never supported a professional hockey team at any level and I don't see it happening in Akron.

I guess another question is this. Outside of Zips basketball, what other entertainment options can this arena provide that isn't already being provided by the two arenas in Cleveland and Blossom? It could be the difference between why an arena such as this works in Grand Rapids, but not in Akron. GR is a long way from a major city (Detroit), so when the Pistons play there or the Red Wings, it is a bid deal because people are so far removed from Detroit. That dynamic does not happen in Akron because it is so close to Cleveland. The WWE goes to Grand Rapids because it is far from Detroit. Why would the WWE come to Akron, foregoing an event in Cleveland? It seems to me the proximity of Akron to Cleveland will make this arena very difficult to make successful. Those public officials who support this deal are asking for a big leap of faith from those who are going to vote in favor of this project. I say vote for it. It isn't my money anymore.

[Dave in Green]

The original story linked to in the first post of this thread gave realistic figures from the FirstEnergy-funded study that are in line with what Youngstown has experienced:

With about 67 events a year, the study found the arena could make a profit, ranging from about $31,000 in the first year to nearly $300,000 in the fifth year.

City-owned arenas are not expected to generate big profits at the arena level. It's the total effect on the city and county economy that must be considered. A facility that attracts new events and visitors to the area impacts the area's total economy. That's the important estimate that hasn't yet shown up in any of the published reports. Specifics are still hard to come by since there is so far only a preliminary plan, as the original story made clear:

UA took the first step in the process Tuesday when its Board of Trustees approved an initial agreement for the project. The university and the other parties still need to reach a more detailed agreement.

[Spin]

Floor space may or may not be a problem. This depends on how they engineer the floor and seating. Maybe they can replace events that require ice with those that do not. Disney on Ice and the circus are two days a year. Seems like that would be easy to replace with some concert dates.

I was just throwing out a couple of examples. You really have to look at the events other arenas bring in during the winter. Some of those events run over 3-4 days. Just for shits and giggles lets say we book 5 of them, and fill 12 dates. Fair?

Then figure in the other sports that can be played there.

Indoor soccer. Stark and Summit counties had two successful indoor soccer teams AT THE SAME TIME. Add 12-24 dates (plus playoffs).

Hockey. I could go on all day about how each of Cleveland's hockey teams were screwed and it had nothing to do with popularity. Except the Monsters, of course. Wooster, Ohio has hockey. Add in 34 or 36 dates plus playoffs..

Arena football, Canton had a team for several years. Add in 8 dates.

Erie Insurance Arena is home to three sports teams. That's right, Erie Pa sustains hockey, D-League basketball, and arena football. Add in either hockey, or football+soccer, and we'll add 34 dates. That's a total of 46 dates. That's a LOT of concerts!!!

Throw in the Zips' 14 or so dates, and you're VERY close to the Clovelli Center's break-even point, before you add concerts.

NOW, let's look at how many dates you have to add to Akron's new gymnasium (a very nice, big gymnasium) to make up that difference. The Zips are good for 18 dates give or take. IF the Charge wanted to move to Akron, and IF they didn't have a long term lease with the CCC, they would add 25 more dates, A little math tells me you have to come up with 24 concerts to make up the difference. And,as you say, you';re competing against Blossom, The Q, The Wolstein, the downtown theatre, the two pavilions in Cleveland, the Rocksino, etc for those concerts.

Good luck with that.

If it's not going to be a burden to the taxpayers, or the University (in other words, the students and the taxpayers), you better be able to fill those dates, I can fill a lot more dates with all those options in front of me than you can with basketball and concerts.

[skip-zip]

The WWE goes to Grand Rapids because it is far from Detroit. Why would the WWE come to Akron, foregoing an event in Cleveland? It seems to me the proximity of Akron to Cleveland will make this arena very difficult to make successful. Those public officials who support this deal are asking for a big leap of faith from those who are going to vote in favor of this project.

This issue of proximity to a major city, and two major performance venues, surfaced a long, long time ago. And it's a good one.

Yes, highly unlikely that Akron could attract any acts of any significance because they would surely book Cleveland or Blossom. If they were a couple of hours away from Cleveland, it would be a huge difference, as you indicate. So, what are the chances that you could make events outside of Zips basketball work if they would have to be 2nd-line acts or lower?

It was a big part of the local debate on whether Akron could make its own arena work many years ago, and it hasn't really been discussed much in these recent conversations here.

Personally, I love the idea of possibly not having to go to Cleveland. I hated when they closed the Coliseum in Richfield. But, this complex won't come close to attracting Cleveland/Blossom level attractions.

[g-mann17]

This issue of proximity to a major city, and two major performance venues, surfaced a long, long time ago. And it's a good one.

And it's about size of venue & cost, Blossom is a Summer Concert Venue, Wolstein Center seats 13,610, Q is used for very major groups. Youngstown seats 5900. The 8500 - 9000 that is mentioned for the Akron venue fills a void that exists for midsize venues. Also, this hasn't stopped Dayton from being successful with two venues. it is only 10 miles farther from Cinci than Akron is from Cleveland and 50 miles closer to Columbus. But the Nutter Center seems to have no problem with getting events.

Also, seems to be a lot of talk about floor size, if you look at the way the Nutter Center is set up, it can host Monster Truck shows, circus, concerts, etc no problem. It does not have a dedicated ice maker but has hosted Hockey, and is primarily a basketball only facility. It also seats about 3000 more than what the Akron arena would.

[Dave in Green]

Good questions are being raised here. I would certainly expect prior to any vote that the folks asking for tens of millions of dollars in taxpayer support would present a full list of all the different activities that can fit the floorplan of the proposed arena, a plan for attracting these activities to Akron and a realistic assessment of what impact they might have on the local economy. I would also expect them to have a reasonable response to any questions about optimizing the floor size for basketball to the exclusion of an ice rink sized for hockey and floor space for indoor football, soccer, etc.

Just looking at concerts, closer examination shows that there's not as much competition as apparent from simply listing every possible venue in the area. All of the outdoor facilities are generally only used 4 months per year (June-September) and represent no competition the other 8 months. I just attended an event at the Rocksino, and it's tiny with a maximum capacity of only 2,600. The proposed Akron arena seating of 8,500 permanent plus 500 temporary offers a good mid-size capacity of 9k. That's nicely positioned between mega events at the Q that draw 20k and smaller events at most of the other indoor venues that can accomodate less than 4k (EJ Thomas, Akron Civic, Rocksino, etc.). An arena optimized for basketball brings more permanent seats closer in to the stage for a music concert.

Lots of different things to consider and discuss before taking a vote.

[GP1]

So, what are the chances that you could make events outside of Zips basketball work if they would have to be 2nd-line acts or lower?

To me, one could classify the types of acts coming to Akron in three categories.

1. Second tier acts.

2. Has beens

3. Up and comers

All three could turn a profit for an arena as there is a market for all three types of acts. The infatuation people from NE Ohio have with Classic Rock could make the "Has Beens" category work well.

One of my favorite acts right now is Zac Brown Band. The first time I saw him was at The Visulite Theater in Charlotte and there were about 100 people there. Not a fit for the new Akron arena at that point. Later, we saw ZBB at the NC Music Factory outside in October since the weather is still nice here and it was about the size venue he could fill at that point in his career. Perfect size for an Akron arena. Now ZBB is now a headliner and will never see the inside of an arena like Akron's until they fall into the "Has Beens" category in 15-20 years. They play large arenas at this point in their career. This is just an example, but the managers need to be savvy enough to know when to book up and comers. They need to be able to make the Akron arena the cool place to go watch bands. Many of you are not old enough to remember it, but Akron used to be a great place for live music and not the washed up bands they attract to events around the area now.

[skip-zip]

Lots of different things to consider and discuss before taking a vote.

Umm... I think we can assume that everyone on ZipsNation will be voting in favor of the arena.

Of course, we can only dream of what we could accomplish if the diehard supporters numbered in the hundreds of thousands, instead of in the hundreds.

[Zipmeister]

Umm... I think we can assume that everyone on ZipsNation will be voting in favor of the arena.

Of course, we can only dream of what we could accomplish if the diehard supporters numbered in the hundreds of thousands, instead of in the hundreds.

That would be a bad assumption.

I can think of several people on ZipsNation that will not be voting in favor of the arena.

[zippy5]

That would be a bad assumption.

I can think of several people on ZipsNation that will not be voting in favor of the arena.

I will definitely not be voting for it.

I live in PA.

[skip-zip]

I can think of several people on ZipsNation that will not be voting in favor of the arena.

Does that tell us anything? I think it does.

Not that it matters. As I said, the die-hard Zips fans are too few to sway this thing.

I have to ask, are your friends possibly retail business owners who don't want the higher sales tax burden on their customers? Are they just lower income people? Are they people that are usually just against any kind of tax increases? Or, are some people just more in favor of an on-campus facility wholly owned by the U ??

I'd love to know. Personally, I don't know anyone who is a Zips fan who is voting NO.

[ZachTheZip]

Have to think that any hardcore high school basketball fan in the county would be voting YES as well. OHSAA playoff games and big rivalry games would be much better served with a new arena.

[Spin]

This issue of proximity to a major city, and two major performance venues, surfaced a long, long time ago. And it's a good one.

Yes, highly unlikely that Akron could attract any acts of any significance because they would surely book Cleveland or Blossom. If they were a couple of hours away from Cleveland, it would be a huge difference, as you indicate. So, what are the chances that you could make events outside of Zips basketball work if they would have to be 2nd-line acts or lower?

It was a big part of the local debate on whether Akron could make its own arena work many years ago, and it hasn't really been discussed much in these recent conversations here.

Personally, I love the idea of possibly not having to go to Cleveland. I hated when they closed the Coliseum in Richfield. But, this complex won't come close to attracting Cleveland/Blossom level attractions.

No arena the size that Akron wants to build is going to book those shows.

The WWE shows that play in smaller arenas aren't the headliner shows that play in the 20,000 seat arenas. The smaller arenas in smaller cities still book them.

The sporting events played at Canal Park and Classic Park and All Pro Freight Stadium and Eastwood Field and the Pipe Yard aren't at the same level as those at Progressive Field. But they are sustainable here in NEOhio, with baseball teams that have been there for years.

If you don't like going to Cleveland for shows, keep an eye on the Rocksino. http://www.hrrocksinonorthfieldpark.com/ (One more reason to not bank on filling a lot of dates with concerts,)

[Spin]

Also, seems to be a lot of talk about floor size, if you look at the way the Nutter Center is set up, it can host Monster Truck shows, circus, concerts, etc no problem. It does not have a dedicated ice maker but has hosted Hockey, and is primarily a basketball only facility.

http://zipsnation.org/forums/topic/31430-downtown-arena/page-3#entry222523

[ZachTheZip]

http://priceonomics.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-book-your-favorite-band/

This is a great guide to see how much it costs to bring in a band for a show.

[K92]

Does that tell us anything? I think it does.

Not that it matters. As I said, the die-hard Zips fans are too few to sway this thing.

I have to ask, are your friends possibly retail business owners who don't want the higher sales tax burden on their customers? Are they just lower income people? Are they people that are usually just against any kind of tax increases? Or, are some people just more in favor of an on-campus facility wholly owned by the U ??

I'd love to know. Personally, I don't know anyone who is a Zips fan who is voting NO.

A lot of the die-hard Zip fans don't live in Summit County.

[Hilltopper]

Woosh!

[Dave in Green]

Did everyone miss this?

... Nobody here will address that obvious shortcoming, but there's no way in hell I'm voting for that. With or without the University tied to it.

If Spin lives in Summit County, I read that as no ice, no dice on his vote.

[infofan]

The nutter center comparison is a good one. Not a dedicated 200x85 hockey floor but it can be used for hockey, ice shows, indoor football, etc. also , don't forget when comparing sites, the q and wolstein are not always available when an act tours the area. That's how the JAR held some bigger acts ( nickel back, matchbox 20) just a couple years ago. They might prefer 20000 or 14000 seats but if the facilities not available they'll use a 10k arena.

A side note on this issue. A public hearing was held today with city council on the proposed sales tax. All positives. 15 people spoke for it, no opponents spoke. Another hearing is scheduled for next monday

[Spin]

It's the size of the floor that matters. A hockey sized floor opens up a LOT of events that you can't hold in a basketball court. I laid that all out in a previous message that must have been a waste of my time. Anyway that's the decider for me.

Having hockey would be nice. If it never happens I still have my Zips hockey. But I think its a money pit for the U if they're trying to find acts for a gymnasium-size floor.

[skip-zip]

A side note on this issue. A public hearing was held today with city council on the proposed sales tax. All positives. 15 people spoke for it, no opponents spoke.

Does this surprise you? The burden is completely on the supporters to sell this. They will show up at a public forum every chance they get.

The opponents will speak loud enough when they say "F new taxes", and go to the voting booth and pull the NO lever. Many of them will do it without even knowing a thing about the issue.

Like I said, lets hope for a major snowstorm on Nov. 4th.

[Zipmeister]

The nutter center comparison is a good one. Not a dedicated 200x85 hockey floor but it can be used for hockey, ice shows, indoor football, etc. also , don't forget when comparing sites, the q and wolstein are not always available when an act tours the area. That's how the JAR held some bigger acts ( nickel back, matchbox 20) just a couple years ago. They might prefer 20000 or 14000 seats but if the facilities not available they'll use a 10k arena.

A side note on this issue. A public hearing was held today with city council on the proposed sales tax. All positives. 15 people spoke for it, no opponents spoke. Another hearing is scheduled for next monday

I don't know if the hockey rink at the Nutter Center was dedicated or not. I'd wager most hockey rinks are indifferent by nature. I do know that occasionally slippery spots developed on the basketball floor that was placed on top of the rink.

[ZachTheZip]

Proponents speak on merits of tax increase - http://www.akron.com/akron-ohio-community-news.asp?aID=23126