The Cleveland Browns could ruin our soccer pitch

[Zip_ME87]

Don't hold your breath waiting on the to answer you. I've brought that up three times now and they skate right around it. They skate so carefully they should try out for the hockey team.

Not sure to what you're referring. Who's skating around what?

[Balsy]

Not sure to what you're referring. Who's skating around what

This is the last thing that I'll say on the matter. Athletics is not what brings people to UA for their college education. It's the proximity to where they live and the campus itself. I don't remember an uptick in enrollment because UA won a national championship.

You have three anecdotal testimonies about how visiting campus in situations other than official visits, was inspiration to find out more about the university. And I can assure you from MORE THAN ONE (in the hundreds) well placed sources (because you like hearsay) say that visiting campus was a major factor in them choosing Akron.

ANY event that brings people to campus (and makes money is the process) is a no brainer. An absolute no brainer. Even if we exclude hearsay, and anecdotes (because they're not evidence), it still make sense logically. If you have athletic fields and arenas sitting unused in off seasons, and a BIG NAME tenant is willing to pay to use them and bring 10,000s of their loyal fans to those unused arenas, you'd be stupid to say no. State Ohio University holds other events than just football at the Horseshoe. It holds other events than just basketball at their basketball arena. And (I hate to say it) but those two programs can pay for themselves AND have more national championships than we do.

Even without any other evidence; the idea itself is a solid one, a logical one and it supports itself...and until there is EVIDENCE that is both quantitative and qualitative, that this logic is bad...it will remain that way.

I've indulged enough on this topic, and I don't even have the burden of proof. The Burden is on you guys to prove that this is a bad idea, and thus far you have failed.

[LZIp]

add me to the list..

Grew up a huge OSU fan. Was leaning towards OSU, then visited Akron campus and made my decision that day. Grew up two hours south and I never even heard much of Akron besides that they had a pretty decent business school from word of mouth.

[Zip_ME87]

This is the last thing that I'll say on the matter. Athletics is not what brings people to UA for their college education. It's the proximity to where they live and the campus itself. I don't remember an uptick in enrollment because UA won a national championship.

You have three anecdotal testimonies about how visiting campus in situations other than official visits, was inspiration to find out more about the university. And I can assure you from MORE THAN ONE (in the hundreds) well placed sources (because you like hearsay) say that visiting campus was a major factor in them choosing Akron.

ANY event that brings people to campus (and makes money is the process) is a no brainer. An absolute no brainer. Even if we exclude hearsay, and anecdotes (because they're not evidence), it still make sense logically. If you have athletic fields and arenas sitting unused in off seasons, and a BIG NAME tenant is willing to pay to use them and bring 10,000s of their loyal fans to those unused arenas, you'd be stupid to say no. State Ohio University holds other events than just football at the Horseshoe. It holds other events than just basketball at their basketball arena. And (I hate to say it) but those two programs can pay for themselves AND have more national championships than we do.

Even without any other evidence; the idea itself is a solid one, a logical one and it supports itself...and until there is EVIDENCE that is both quantitative and qualitative, that this logic is bad...it will remain that way.

I've indulged enough on this topic, and I don't even have the burden of proof. The Burden is on you guys to prove that this is a bad idea, and thus far you have failed.

Again, if your sources are reliable, it's not hearsay. Why are Tom's quotes in the ABJ about this only affecting the soccer pitch for 1 year if at all not hearsay? Ok, so you know who the source is. The same source who told us all the great things that Rob Ianello would do and the outstanding community member he would be. Ask Terry Bowden about the relations he had to build and damage he had to mend to be able to recruit locally thanks to Rob Ianello's good relationship/standing in the community.

I don't recall saying that people coming to campus wouldn't convince some of them to come to UA. I'm sure it will. But, the thing that would really bring increased enrollment would be lower tuition than competitors while still providing a quality education that rivals your higher priced competitors. You don't lower tuition if you put yourself in a bad position. "(and makes money is the process)" & "a BIG NAME tenant is willing to pay to use them" are assumptions and are only no brainers if you're guaranteed to not lose money. There will never be any evidence to change your logic. If A & B & C happen, then D. IF A. we make money and B. bring people to campus and C. in the process some of them choose to enroll at UA then D. it's good. No way would I argue that IF your A, B, and C occur, that it's not D. good for UA. The problem with your logic is that A is unknown, even if the proposal includes payments from the Browns. You don't know the effect on the soccer field and costs of proper repairs, the effect on mens soccer attendance, or the effect on donations from the soccer alumni and donors. The mens soccer program has some significant donors who were there even before the Mens Soccer National Championship. Pissing off a known source of funding isn't very logical.

[Zip_ME87]

This alumnus has football season tickets as well as soccer season tickets. Both carry significant donations to the Z fund in addition to the cost of the seats. I also donate to the educational side of the university. I turned away from pro sports a number of years ago and to college sports because of how f'd up pro sports are, but our society accepts it and continues to pay for ever increasing prices with no logic to it whatsoever. College sports are f'd up, now, too as GP1 loves to tell us and they are well on their way to being just as f'd up as the pro's. Ohio State and the B1G are great examples of big time college sports run amok. How many UA donors are there like me whom you will turn away if the deal with the Browns turns out badly for the things we love about UA? How does that figure into the bottom line? Your "make money" assumption is not as simple as you think it is. There is no burden of proof on you because you don't care enough to find out what's really in play with this proposal. If it were so easy to "make money", UA's endowment would be a lot larger than it currently is, and UA wouldn't have the debt that it does. Go on, live your life on hope. I've always found that a thoughtful plan works out better than hope most of the time. My argument has never been that the Browns won't bring people to UA's campus. My problem with this idea continues to be that there was little thought put into the total equation and the risks involved.

[fknbuflobo]

No, Balsy. Fallacious. Moving from status quo bears the burden of proof. The idea to change something must be proven worthy, not the other way around.

I do not have the burden to prove your new idea as bad. You must prove your new idea as good.

[Dave in Green]

Zip_ME87, knowing how passionate and emotional you are about Zips soccer, I really appreciate your efforts to try to tone down some of the more extreme stuff and be more calm and measured in your advocacy. I'm won over by logical discussion points and not crazy talk. At times this discussion was reaching the point that I was about to tune it out. But there have also been reasonable comments from both sides, which has kept me engaged.

One suggestion I would make is that you stop continuously citing Tom Wistrcill's mistake in hiring Rob Ianello as everyone is already acutely and painfully aware of this. Whenever I see someone constantly bringing up the mistakes of someone else it reminds me how imperfect we all are. I've made mistakes in my life and have moved on a little wiser and trying to do better. I have no doubts that you have, too. Everyone has. Point made and understood by all.

I support your efforts to try to get the full story. I think the one thing we all have in common is that we want what's best for UA, and I believe that each of us should be willing to compromise in areas that might be especially important to us if it results in an overall improvement for UA. We will all need to have access to the best available information in order to arrive at our own best conclusions. Selected facts from potentially biased sources that support only one side's preconceived notions will be rejected by everyone else. As the old saying goes, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

[Captain Kangaroo]

"Those who don't learn history are condemned to repeat it."

Zip_ME87 wins this debate. Logic, facts, research, avoidance of hyperbole, specifics...the total package.

[Zip_ME87]

Zip_ME87, knowing how passionate and emotional you are about Zips soccer, I really appreciate your efforts to try to tone down some of the more extreme stuff and be more calm and measured in your advocacy. I'm won over by logical discussion points and not crazy talk. At times this discussion was reaching the point that I was about to tune it out. But there have also been reasonable comments from both sides, which has kept me engaged.

One suggestion I would make is that you stop continuously citing Tom Wistrcill's mistake in hiring Rob Ianello as everyone is already acutely and painfully aware of this. Whenever I see someone constantly bringing up the mistakes of someone else it reminds me how imperfect we all are. I've made mistakes in my life and have moved on a little wiser and trying to do better. I have no doubts that you have, too. Everyone has. Point made and understood by all.

I support your efforts to try to get the full story. I think the one thing we all have in common is that we want what's best for UA, and I believe that each of us should be willing to compromise in areas that might be especially important to us if it results in an overall improvement for UA. We will all need to have access to the best available information in order to arrive at our own best conclusions. Selected facts from potentially biased sources that support only one side's preconceived notions will be rejected by everyone else. As the old saying goes, everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.

DiG, I totally agree with you about people making mistakes, learning, and getting better. Also, I really don't like bringing up the Rob Ianello hire over and over, but I've also read in numerous studies that often people have to hear something 6 times before they really get it. I don't know whether that exact number holds true, but I do know that because people often don't really listen, that repitition does help make a point. The other thing that I would say is that yes, I'm sure you've made mistakes as have I, but I'll bet you've done a lot of great things, too. People probably overlook your mistakes because you've also had numerous successes that show you know what you're doing. I think we have yet to see that from our AD. Some might point to the hiring of Terry Bowden as evidence of Tom's success. I don't know if Tom made the decision to actually ink him to a contract, but I do know from what I have read that "According to a source with knowledge of contract talks, Bowden reached out to Akron." Really, Tom didn't know Terry Bowden was a possibility even though numerous ZN.o members raised his name during the search that yielded RI? ZN.o members have better connections than our AD. Maybe, or maybe ZN.o members care more than Tom because UA is theirs forever, not temporarily. Apparently, TB fell into Tom's lap, and we now have a great coach from a great coaching family, and the Athletic Department still can't market Zips FB well. They have to grasp for help from the Cleveland Browns and at the same time possibly ruin something else that they've already built based apparently on little but gut feel? That's too much of a stretch for me without some real, hard evidence of proper forethought and openness on this proposal.

Please provide me an example of what Tom has done to start me down the road of trusting and/or respecting him.

EDIT: This ZN.o member, UA alumnus, and fan cares enough about his alma mater that I have reserved a seat at this Friday's Investiture of President Scarborough. I can't think of anything that I'd rather do less than sit through such a boring event on a Friday afternoon. But, I'm willing to do it just for the chance to ask our new President and any other of the powers that be about this proposal and other "great" plans they have for UA. The likelihood of my actually getting to talk with any of them is probably quite low, but UA matters enough to me to take the chance.

[MDZip]

One suggestion I would make is that you stop continuously citing Tom Wistrcill's mistake in hiring Rob Ianello as everyone is already acutely and painfully aware of this. Whenever I see someone constantly bringing up the mistakes of someone else it reminds me how imperfect we all are. I've made mistakes in my life and have moved on a little wiser and trying to do better. I have no doubts that you have, too. Everyone has. Point made and understood by all.

And regardless of how it unfolded, he was also the guy who hired Terry Bowden. Anyone unhappy with that hire?

[Balsy]

This just in: Columbus is making a huge push for Browns Training Camp

[Zip_ME87]

This just in: Columbus is making a huge push for Browns Training Camp

Notice "Ohio Dominican University is one place under consideration. Another possibility is eventually building a facility, which also could be used by the Columbus Crew, the city's MLS entry, and area youth soccer organizations."

Ohio Dominican, not Ohio State, hmmm.

Thanks. I'd love to have an equivalent of Los Angeles' Stub Hub Center in Columbus, Ohio. That would be AWESOME! Go Columbus!!!

Better deal for the Browns, too. Gets them far enough away from Cleveland to have little to no distractions from the normal routine.

[Zip_ME87]

The equivalent of Los Angeles' Stub Hub Center in Columbus, Ohio.

@Crew8 @fknbuflobo ... can you imagine having youth soccer development so close to Akron? Yeah, Ohio State might be right next door, but UA has better soccer facilities, connections, and history than tOSU. Could be a recruiters dream. We could have more US Soccer activity in Columbus, too if a facility like that existed there. I like it.

[Zip_ME87]

And regardless of how it unfolded, he was also the guy who hired Terry Bowden.

Yeah, I imagine Bowden called him up and Tom said something like 'I need to save my butt. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You're a God send. How soon can you get here.'

Hope and luck aren't good strategies, but it's awesome when they work out.

[fknbuflobo]

The equivalent of Los Angeles' Stub Hub Center in Columbus, Ohio.

@Crew8 @fknbuflobo ... can you imagine having youth soccer development so close to Akron? Yeah, Ohio State might be right next door, but UA has better soccer facilities, connections, and history than tOSU. Could be a recruiters dream. We could have more US Soccer activity in Columbus, too if a facility like that existed there. I like it.

Love it!!!!

[Captain Kangaroo]

This just in: Columbus is making a huge push for Browns Training Camp

They want everything in Columbus. I like how they stole the state HS football playoffs from Canton/Massillon.

Who needs the money more...Columbus or Canton? MF'ers.

[Spin]

If you're going to keep pounding Ianello down our throats as some reason the Browns shouldn't practice here, show us your messages right after he was hired that you knew he would be a failure and how stupid you thought Wistercill was back then.

Maybe you'll get your way and Cowlumbus or Can't will get the camp and you can rest comfortably looking at empty facilities that the University is spending $$$ maintaining.

Think small, be small.

[Zip_ME87]

They want everything in Columbus. I like how they stole the state HS football playoffs from Canton/Massillon.

Who needs the money more...Columbus or Canton? MF'ers.

The high school playoffs should be done regionally, then rotated among areas of Ohio from year to year so that everyone gets an opportunity to attend. I always thought the move to C-bus was more about making them more readily accessible from any area of the state by "centrally" locating them.

As far as the Browns, if I followed the logic that some on this board do, I'd say Columbus is perfect for them. It gives them yearly exposure in Ohio's largest city for 20 days and the rest of the year they're at home in Ohio's second larget city. No-brainer. yeah, right. I'm sure Jimmy has his people running the numbers before he makes any decisions and will likely put together a contract with an out clause in his favor if things aren't working out. The NFL and Browns are all about money. They're going to do whatever is best for them, and they're not going to do it blindly.

[Zip_ME87]

If you're going to keep pounding Ianello down our throats as some reason the Browns shouldn't practice here, show us your messages right after he was hired that you knew he would be a failure and how stupid you thought Wistercill was back then.

Maybe you'll get your way and Cowlumbus or Can't will get the camp and you can rest comfortably looking at empty facilities that the University is spending $$$ maintaining.

Think small, be small.

I didn't have RI's resume. I never interviewed him. But, when I first met him in the JAR in Spring 2010, he did not come across as a leader nor was he interested in talking with me about Zips Football. Tom was unknown at the time to me. He hadn't done anything positive or negative or made a major decision. I was worried about the Notre Dame connections, their lack of success with Charlie Weiss and the same assistants RI brought to Akron. I was skeptical. but hopeful. There's that word hope. I convinced a friend/UA Alumnus to buy season tickets. He did so for 2010 and 2011, the 2 worst years for Zips Football. My friend continues to be one of those Ohio State fans that never went there. Now his kid goes there. He hasn't returned to Zips Football. Thanks Tom. Give me another.

[Zip_ME87]

State Ohio University holds other events than just football at the Horseshoe. It holds other events than just basketball at their basketball arena. And (I hate to say it) but those two programs can pay for themselves AND have more national championships than we do.

The Horseshoe has turf. Infocision has turf. I never said anything against the Browns or any other football team, concert, .... using Infocision Stadium-Summa Field.

I live in Brunswick. Brunswick High School graduates at the JAR. I've been to the JAR for Zips Basketball EOY Celebration on the covered floor. LeBron James accepted an MVP award at the JAR. The 2010 National Champion Zips Mens Soccer Team held their celebration at the JAR. I had PE golf in the JAR when I attended UA. The floor was protected.

The Akron Summit Assault used FES-CCF in 2011. The Columbus Crew played a USOC2014 match there, too. Soccer should be played on a grass pitch, especially one that rivals an MLS-recognized, well-kept pitch like that at Columbus Crew Stadium.

I didn't argue against any of this, and I doubt that UA lost any donors over any of the above.

Take the risk of damaging CCF without a plan in place to repair it and an actual plan in place to accommodate the Browns elsewhere in Years 2 and beyond without bleeding funds from UA's budget...yes I will fight that. And, yes Can't or Columbus can have the Browns based upon their hand waving of how they will accommodate them and profit.

BTW...Ohio State has an actual arena. Akron has a glorified high-school gymnasium thanks to poor planning. Let's concentrate on building an actual arena and market it as an entertainment venue for Akron, Summit County, Stark County, Portage County, Medina County, Tuscarawas County.

[Balsy]

Spin, just give it up. This has turned into a Zip_ME87 rant fest.

[Dave in Green]

Columbus will gladly take anything it can from any other area of Ohio where the citizens don't value something enough to fight for it. Perhaps there are agents representing Columbus right here on this forum trying to make the case that Akron and UA should give up on trying to attract the Browns and let them go to Columbus where their presence will be better appreciated.

But seriously, if the Browns have a goal of attracting more fans throughout Ohio, their best course would be to move the training camp every few years to different regions of the state on a rotating basis. Even if they agreed to UA's offer and came to Akron next season, I suspect it would only be for a couple of years and then they'd move on as they have before.

[Zip_ME87]

Perhaps there are agents representing Columbus right here on this forum trying to make the case that Akron and UA should give up on trying to attract the Browns and let them go to Columbus where their presence will be better appreciated.

+614, I'm a conspiracy theorist. in addition to being a ranter; actually, probably more obsessive (but not compulsive) than ranting.

[ZachTheZip]

The Browns' hegemony already includes Columbus. Looks like they'd be better served by having camp in Toledo every few years if they want to capture a significant state market.

[Spin]

I just don't understand how it is possible to have a pristine playing surface yet be clueless and unable to maintain that. When you see Cleveland Browns Stadium before a game, it's like a golf course.

Agree on the arena 1000% BTW.