Coach Dambrot needs to coach

[zipnetter55]

A few months ago I had a very informative conversation with ex-Can't State coach, Geno Ford(now at Bradley) I asked how and why Creighton, Ill. State, Missouri State,St Louis and Bradley(in the past) were able to field top 20-25 teams, some of whom made runs in the NCAA tournament. His reply was 2 words-NO FOOTBALL. These schools have great venues (10,000-15,000 seats) and are packed for most games, as they are the only game in town.Check their athletic budgets and compare the money spent on hoops to what A.U. spends. Hilltopper was right on the money when he said the albatross of Infocision Stadium will continue to haunt the basketball program.

Ford also said that if you want to know why a particular MAC school is dominant in a particular sport, JUST FOLLOW the MONEY. He said Can't State is more successful in baseball and golf because they outspend the other MAC schools by 2-3 times and A.U. outspends other Mac schools by 3-1 in soccer. In college athletics you get what you pay for. K.D is unbelievably respected in the coaching community and does a superior job with the resources he has to work with-an aging outdated arena,dismal student body support and an administrative staff that has made some serious mistakes.

Just look at the progress in recruiting- 8-10 yrs ago could you even imagine getting players from Nevada,Texas,N.Carolina? We were fortunate to get players from Buchtel, Central and occasionally from Canton or Western Pa. Seems like many of you have short memories.

[K92]

A.U.

AYFKMWTS

[ZachTheZip]

A few months ago I had a very informative conversation with ex-Can't State coach, Geno Ford(now at Bradley) I asked how and why Creighton, Ill. State, Missouri State,St Louis and Bradley(in the past) were able to field top 20-25 teams, some of whom made runs in the NCAA tournament. His reply was 2 words-NO FOOTBALL. These schools have great venues (10,000-15,000 seats) and are packed for most games, as they are the only game in town.Check their athletic budgets and compare the money spent on hoops to what A.U. spends. Hilltopper was right on the money when he said the albatross of Infocision Stadium will continue to haunt the basketball program.

Ford also said that if you want to know why a particular MAC school is dominant in a particular sport, JUST FOLLOW the MONEY. He said Can't State is more successful in baseball and golf because they outspend the other MAC schools by 2-3 times and A.U. outspends other Mac schools by 3-1 in soccer. In college athletics you get what you pay for. K.D is unbelievably respected in the coaching community and does a superior job with the resources he has to work with-an aging outdated arena,dismal student body support and an administrative staff that has made some serious mistakes.

Just look at the progress in recruiting- 8-10 yrs ago could you even imagine getting players from Nevada,Texas,N.Carolina? We were fortunate to get players from Buchtel, Central and occasionally from Canton or Western Pa. Seems like many of you have short memories.

That's great, but why was he talking to you about Auburn?

[Dave in Green]

Calling UA AU is always a good conversation starter on ZN.o. But the point about so many good mid-major basketball programs being at schools that don't have FBS football teams is a good one that we've discussed here in the past. Gonzaga, Butler and VCU are also good examples of schools that have invested heavily in basketball to compete with the big boys. It wasn't too many years ago that Gonzaga had a mid-major basketball budget similar to the Zips. Today Gonzaga budgets about $6 million per year compared with about $2 million for UA. Creighton spends about $5.3 million. Even Dayton has a $4 million budget -- double what the Zips spend.

In 2013 UA had the 153rd highest basketball budget of 349 schools listed in a ranking of D-I team men's basketball expenses. The biggest winning mid-majors all have much higher than average budgets compared with all mid-majors. Schools outside the power conferences simply don't have the resources to compete with the big boys on equal terms in all sports and have to cut in other areas to raise the level of their basketball teams. It's a fact of life we Zips fans have to live with, and there's no easy solution.

[skip-zip]

Akron is something like the 50th largest University in the country. We are also in a decent size city.

We SHOULD be able to easily gather the resources to support competitive D-1 Football and Basketball, to at least adequate mid-major standards.

Emphasis on the word SHOULD.

Again, if people around here ever understood who our LOCAL team really is, this would not even have to be a discussion.

[morris buttermaker]

A few months ago I had a very informative conversation with ex-Can't State coach, Geno Ford(now at Bradley) I asked how and why Creighton, Ill. State, Missouri State,St Louis and Bradley(in the past) were able to field top 20-25 teams, some of whom made runs in the NCAA tournament. His reply was 2 words-NO FOOTBALL. .

I don't get it,,,,, Akron doesn't have football either

[Dave in Green]

Skip, I'm assuming you mean that UA is the 50th largest university by student enrollment numbers. I couldn't find a list that showed where UA stands in the endowment rankings of all universities. But I did find the following data on university financial endowments:

Of 1,141 ranked national universities, national liberal arts colleges, regional colleges and regional universities that reported endowment figures to U.S. News, Harvard was #1 at about $30 billion and the average endowment was about $330 million. Another source showed UA with an endowment of about $133 million, well below the average of 1,141 schools. Considering all of these rankings, UA appears to be relatively rich in student enrollment and relatively poor in financial endowments. As the one story points out:

Schools use income from their endowments – along with tuition and other funding – to fund their day-to-day operations, so changes in the endowment's size can have a big effect on campus. That's especially true at public universities, many of which have faced stagnant or decreased state funding during the recession.

[taxpayer]

Money is in short supply at UA and KD should be praised for producing MAC champs....the run of playing in the conference championship game is remarkable and we were all sad to see it end last year.

Back to money. Football is killing UA athletics. UA's investment in Info and the repeated lousy teams with zero attendance is draining the UA well dry. KD has done some tremendous work in getting the program to being the dominant MAC program. With a facility that is......well, you know. As stated previously, the best way to assist UA/KD with getting this program to the next level is BOOSTER DONATIONS. I believe I'm correct when stating the budget given to KD the last couple of years is not increasing...and won't be. We need to contribute so the Zips can charter selectively during the season. It still ticks me off to hear the Zips travel arrangements from Charleston to State College and compare it to PSU's guys chartering direct. I believe the Zips beat PSU if we charter directly to State Colllege instead of the unfortunate scenerio the Zips experienced. Want "better" assistants? I'm not sure what that's all about but if you want better....give more money to the program. Forget about a new facility...as I've said it won't happen unless LeBron pays for one or the football program rountinely sells out.

Oh, one more idea that the fans will like and KD won't. Play as many high majors at their homecourt in the OCC. We won't get many invitations but we could get paid some nice money to afford my suggestions above.

[LosAngelesZipFan]

So for anyone that read the topic on consolidating Akron and Can't in some way, this is why I keep bringing this up (hazarding beating a dead horse, so my apologies in advance).

Between UA and Can't, there is enough budget for ONE good football program and ONE good basketball program. And by good, I mean programs that can consistently compete for championships in a conference superior to the MAC. The types of programs that would consistently draw 30K+ to football and 8K to basketball, garner national attention, and get the people of NEO out of scarlet and gray crap.

Alone, neither Akron nor Can't have the resources to transcend the MAC in basketball and football. Nor do they have the resources to transcend where they currently are academically. We are competing for a medium sized pie of people (Northeast Ohio), diffusing the attention and support of that pie, and also facing overwhelming competition for attention and support with Ohio State. Neither school can breakthrough in any meaningful, sustained way.

But...if we worked together, something magical would happen. Overnight, a combined UA-Can't would be one of the biggest schools in the country, with a really large alumni base, and absolute dominance of the NEO geography because of the combined branch campus systems. We would have several world class academic programs, particularly of note the synergistic polymer and liquid crystal programs. Athletically, we would have the money to have a decently funded football and basketball program, as well as several stand out programs like soccer, baseball, and golf.

I spent the first half of my life making fun of Can't State people including my Dad and brother, and ex-girlfriend. I was born at Akron City and lived in Can't until I was 10. I get the rivalry, I really do. And I would have heart for it still if it really meant anything to a large number of people...but the reality is that it doesn't. A few thousand folks, maybe 10 or 15,000, really deeply care. That's not enough passion and interest to obstruct all the benefits that would come from combining. I truly believe that this type of news would unleash a ton of excitement and interest in the community. Yes, there would be arguing and gnashing of teeth. And some on this board would foreswear their allegiance.

But, I bet that in a few years, when we are competing on a whole other level (imagine a team that consistently ranked in football and winning NCAA games in basketball), and there is a consistent flow of high quality teams into Akron, and when the next generation of students comes through experiencing a completely transformed formed university that competes with any in the country/world...I bet any hurt feelings would be quickly forgotten. Imagine if you had a university that was an approximation of Ohio State in terms of size, scope, renown, and success, suddenly dropped into the middle of NEO, of NEO, for NEO.

I'm telling ya', when the initial discomfort faded and all the little administrative things are worked out, it would be, well, transformational for the area.

I said it earlier, UAB is the canary in the coal mine. What we are doing is unsustainable. There will have to be a big change, a bold new idea/approach. And, returning now to this specific thread, it's the only we will ever have enough resources and excitement to sufficiently support both football and basketball programs. We know where we are now, after decades for investment and effort. It's about to get exponentially harder as direct payments to players starts happen. The sports side of these universities is a business. These are brands. And all business and brand logic points to a merger.

[Hilltopper]

Can't can have football and baseball. We keep basketball and soccer. Turn Infocison into a domed basketball arena and all purpose venue. Where do I sign up?

[ZippyRulz]

I said it earlier, UAB is the canary in the coal mine. What we are doing is unsustainable.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr-saturday/hawaii-athletic-director-says-hawaii-football-could-be--going-away-232207654.html

I shuddered a bit when I saw mentioned somewhere the possibility of the P5 increasing scholarship limits. Taking away the top 20% of talent from the G5 would be devastating to the whole tier.

[Sportsjunkie330]

A few months ago I had a very informative conversation with ex-Can't State coach, Geno Ford(now at Bradley) I asked how and why Creighton, Ill. State, Missouri State,St Louis and Bradley(in the past) were able to field top 20-25 teams, some of whom made runs in the NCAA tournament. His reply was 2 words-NO FOOTBALL. These schools have great venues (10,000-15,000 seats) and are packed for most games, as they are the only game in town.Check their athletic budgets and compare the money spent on hoops to what A.U. spends. Hilltopper was right on the money when he said the albatross of Infocision Stadium will continue to haunt the basketball program.

Ford also said that if you want to know why a particular MAC school is dominant in a particular sport, JUST FOLLOW the MONEY. He said Can't State is more successful in baseball and golf because they outspend the other MAC schools by 2-3 times and A.U. outspends other Mac schools by 3-1 in soccer. In college athletics you get what you pay for. K.D is unbelievably respected in the coaching community and does a superior job with the resources he has to work with-an aging outdated arena,dismal student body support and an administrative staff that has made some serious mistakes.

Just look at the progress in recruiting- 8-10 yrs ago could you even imagine getting players from Nevada,Texas,N.Carolina? We were fortunate to get players from Buchtel, Central and occasionally from Canton or Western Pa. Seems like many of you have short memories.

I would say that Akron DOES put a TON of money into the basketball program......KD makes $400,000+.

[Dave in Green]

I would say that Akron DOES put a TON of money into the basketball program......KD makes $400,000+.

As pointed out in a previous post above, we know exactly how much UA budgets for men's basketball compared with 348 other schools, and the Zips rank #153. So if UA is spending a ton of money, others are spending as much as 8 tons of money. Right here in the MAC we know that OU budgets 1.6 tons of money, or more than 50% more than UA. Even Buffalo has a slightly heavier budget than the Zips. So there's no question about where we stand in the financial pecking order.

[taxpayer]

Sports junkie - in today's college basketball world $400,000 is a decent assistant coach salary. KD has done an excellent job at UA. I'd agree his offense is below average what's to be critical about with his coaching? Don't blame coaching for an average budget which leads to low paid assistant salaries and pathetic recruiting budgets, facilities, travel/food. Don't even get me started on the student attendance issue.

[skip-zip]

As stated previously, the best way to assist UA/KD with getting this program to the next level is BOOSTER DONATIONS.

This is exactly what I am referring to. And we have the city, the people, the business community and the alumni numbers to easily be able to bring it in. The only problem we have is attitudes and perceptions. Akron people are failing to acknowledge that Akron is our local University, that they play in the highest division of college athletics, and that these much-needed resources would absolutely help us climb to a more nationally-recognized level in all sports.

[morris buttermaker]

Sports junkie - in today's college basketball world $400,000 is a decent assistant coach salary.

Absolutely false... few assistant coaches make $400,000. the highest being Jankovich ($700,000) at SMU... why -- no idea, but you can always expect him to be left in charge when Larry Brown leaves... because Larry always leaves.. i.e. Payne at Kentucky makes $350,000 plus a bonus of $85,000 last yr... The Michigan assistants have all had their pay bumped to around $200,000.... which seems to be the current market

My guess is there are not 20 guys making $300,000... many TOP programs are probably in the $150,00 - $175,000 range

[Dave in Green]

I couldn't find a comprehensive source of assistant basketball coaching salaries anywhere, but everything I found supports the claim above that only a few assistants make as much as $400k per year. There's a big gap between head coach and assistant coach salaries at every level.

Coach Dambrot's $400k salary appears to be right around fair market value for a head coach with his credentials at a school with total men's basketball expenses in the $2 million range like UA. If you take that $400k as a percentage of the $2 million total expenses, it represents 20%.

By comparison, Mark Few's $1.2 million salary is also 20% of Gonzaga's total expenses of $6 million, Greg McDermott's $1 million salary is also 20% of Creighton's $5 million total expenses and Shaka Smart's $1.5 million salary works out to 30% of VCU's $5 million expenses. At the top end, Louisville has the highest total expenses at $15 million, and Rick Pitino's $4.7 million salary is about 30% of that. It seems that a fair percentage of head coaches at schools with consistent winning programs are paid about 20-30% of total program expenses.

[Sportsjunkie330]

I couldn't find a comprehensive source of assistant basketball coaching salaries anywhere, but everything I found supports the claim above that only a few assistants make as much as $400k per year. There's a big gap between head coach and assistant coach salaries at every level.

Coach Dambrot's $400k salary appears to be right around fair market value for a head coach with his credentials at a school with total men's basketball expenses in the $2 million range like UA. If you take that $400k as a percentage of the $2 million total expenses, it represents 20%.

By comparison, Mark Few's $1.2 million salary is also 20% of Gonzaga's total expenses of $6 million, Greg McDermott's $1 million salary is also 20% of Creighton's $5 million total expenses and Shaka Smart's $1.5 million salary works out to 30% of VCU's $5 million expenses. At the top end, Louisville has the highest total expenses at $15 million, and Rick Pitino's $4.7 million salary is about 30% of that. It seems that a fair percentage of head coaches at schools with consistent winning programs are paid about 20-30% of total program expenses.

All good info and I agree that KD should be paid fair market value however, I think it is important to look at revenue.

This article is from a couple of years ago but things probably haven't changed much since.

- Gonzaga brings in $1,022,313 in profit ... 25.1% profit

- Creighton brings in $ 789,007 in profit ...16.4% profit

- Louisville brings in $ 16,869,569 in profit ... 66.2% profit

- VCU shows even revenue

Akron shows losses of $1,178,531 ... -277.4% ... 3rd worst in Division 1

[ZachTheZip]

Akron shows losses of $1,178,531 ... -277.4% ... 3rd worst in Division 1

Paying all those cupcakes for "buy" games really adds up, especially without one or two payday games of our own to offset it.

[Dave in Green]

... Akron shows losses of $1,178,531 ... -277.4% ... 3rd worst in Division 1

Yeah, when I come across numbers like that it almost makes me wish I didn't research things. The only part of the story that may hold a little hope that the UA situation is not quite as bad as it looks is in the following three paragraphs:

... The comparison between basketball revenues and profits is interesting, but not precise. That's because schools have latitude in their filings with the Department of Education in whether they attribute some expenses and revenues to a specific sport or a more general classification for their entire athletic department.

Many schools use that latitude to have revenue and expenses for one sport equal one another rather than show a profit or a loss, a trick of accounting that wouldn't pass muster with the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Some schools even make their programs look worse. Duke University, a top seed in this year's NCAA men's basketball tournament, reported the largest loss of any men's basketball program last year after years of annual profits in the $4 million to $5 million range. The school said that was due to a shift in revenue to the non-sport specific classification. ...

Without knowing exactly how UA calculated their numbers in this particular report, we can at least speculate on the possibility that all revenues and expenses are being averaged across all athletic programs. For example we know that Zips football attendance is way down and there's a new stadium to be paid off, which would drag down the entire athletic department proift/loss line.

[clarkwgriswold]

Let me preface this by saying I am Akron born and raised and have three degrees from UA. That being said, if I am a 17 or 18 year old talented male basketball player, it is unlikely UA would be at the top of my list. The basketball facilities are second rate, the student fan base and support are nearly nonexistent, and the city has little to offer when compared to others. As such, Dambrot has little to work with in recruiting other than the success of the program, and he has done well to get the talent he has and be a consistent power in the MAC. The fact that the football program has been such a drain and the community's lack of support for an arena further hurt the program.

Based upon the cards he's been dealt, Dambrot has been great. He's clearly the best we've had since Huggins and we should be happy to have him.

[Dr Z]

I get a little Dambrot and Zips basketball feeling when I read about Mike Brown and the Bengals. One line in particular stood out.

[Glib Shanley]

I get a little Dambrot and Zips basketball feeling when I read about Mike Brown and the Bengals. One line in particular stood out.

Yea, I'd hate to play golf in Maui....

[The Hip Zip]

Mr Griswold, You are spot on, it is what it is.

[Zip_ME87]

it is what it is.

I loathe that saying.

That was what Ken Lolla thought when he left. Who would have thought that Caleb Porter could sell Akron to blue chip soccer players? I'm so glad that CP and my parents, grandparents, their parents, etc. didn't have that attitude.

I, too, am happy to have Keith Dambrot. That doesn't mean I shouldn't expect any more from him.