kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 33 minutes ago, skip-zip said: I'm just pointing out to you that what you are not seeing is the unbelievable amount of things that they are able to obtain with borrowed money. The tangible things like facilities and equipment. Their debt has grown from 800 million to 2.6 BILLION in 10 years. Would you claim that these bloated-salary coaches are not using any of these facilities that are just getting thrown onto the debt load at such an alarming rate? Do you think these impressive structures do not help recruit better athletes? Can you imagine what Akron Athletics could have if they were the athletic department of a school that was irresponsible enough to TRIPLE their debt load in the next 10 years? You know why it's happening. When Alabama or Clemson or Auburn adds a new state-of-the-art training facility, they certainly feel like they need to add one too, to try to keep up. Whether they need one or not. But it's now gotten the Governor's attention, like I pointed out. And he's an alum of the school. Ohio State's athletic department self funds its state-of-the-art training facilities and its stadium/arena renovations then at the end of the year they still cut a check to the university. As for OSU debt, a huge chunk (about 50% of what you're stating) of that can be attributed to a $1.1 billion (yes, I meant billion, not million) medical center expansion. A building that the Governor of Ohio is on record as saying the cure to cancer will be discovered in that building. Please explain to me how that is remotely related to the athletic department? The reason they have acquired the amount of the debt that they have isn't because they are trying to surpass Alabama or whoever on the football field. It's because they are trying to pass Michigan, Northwestern, and others in the academic field. http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/debt-ohio-public-universities-tops/z8K0gYeFX9rquqmdLAMzOI/ Edited March 31, 2017 by kreed5120 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morris buttermaker Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 27 minutes ago, skip-zip said: I'm just pointing out to you that what you are not seeing is the unbelievable amount of things that they are able to obtain with borrowed money. The tangible things like facilities and equipment. Their debt has grown from 800 million to 2.6 BILLION in 10 years. Would you claim that these bloated-salary coaches are not using any of these facilities that are just getting thrown onto the debt load at such an alarming rate? Do you think these impressive structures do not help recruit better athletes? Can you imagine what Akron Athletics could have if they were the athletic department of a school that was irresponsible enough to TRIPLE their debt load in the next 10 years? I know what OSU has built, how it attracts coaches and players... I also know that the Athletic Dept alone can service the debt at OSU. "Can you imagine what Akron Athletics could have if they were the athletic department of a school that was irresponsible enough to TRIPLE their debt load in the next 10 years"... Akron would never be able to service that debt, so whats the point?....Akron athletics cant service its debt with $24million in University support. Im not worried about OSU's athletic model. "So much is left over after paying the athletic bills, OSU each year transfers some money from its athletic department to the academic side of campus. The transfer was $8.6 million in 2013-14 and $8.3 million a year earlier, according to the school's last two financial reports to the NCAA." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 21 minutes ago, morris buttermaker said: Im not worried about OSU's athletic model. "So much is left over after paying the athletic bills, OSU each year transfers some money from its athletic department to the academic side of campus. The transfer was $8.6 million in 2013-14 and $8.3 million a year earlier, according to the school's last two financial reports to the NCAA." So pretty much their surplus is enough to pay the annual payment on Infocision TWICE... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 4 minutes ago, morris buttermaker said: I know what OSU has built, how it attracts coaches and players... I also know that the Athletic Dept alone can service the debt at OSU. Being able to make payments on your debt is commendable. Congratulations. But back to the topic once again: You can't justify having 2.6 Billion dollars worth of things you can't pay for, which has TRIPLED in the last 10 years, when you are paying your Fencing and Tiddly-Winks Coaches $300,000 per year. 19 minutes ago, kreed5120 said: Please explain to me how that is remotely related to the athletic department? You missed the part that said that 30% of their debt is attributed to "new student amenities". I'm sure that has no impact on student/athlete recruiting, and becomes no benefit to those people once they enroll. I'm glad that they think their expenses will lead to the cure for Cancer. I'm disappointed that you're sold on their BS to attempt to lead people to believe that their expenditures are for higher causes related to saving the world. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 39 minutes ago, kreed5120 said: The reason they have acquired the amount of the debt that they have isn't because they are trying to surpass Alabama or whoever on the football field. It's because they are trying to pass Michigan, Northwestern, and others in the academic field. Of course it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkwgriswold Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 3 minutes ago, skip-zip said: Being able to make payments on your debt is commendable. Congratulations. But back to the topic once again: You can't justify having 2.6 Billion dollars worth of things you can't pay for, which has TRIPLED in the last 10 years, when you are paying your Fencing and Tiddly-Winks Coaches $300,000 per year. You missed the part that said that 30% of their debt is attributed to "new student amenities". I'm sure that has no impact on student/athlete recruiting, and becomes no benefit to those people once they enroll. I'm glad that they think their expenses will lead to the cure for Cancer. I'm disappointed that you're sold on their BS to attempt to lead people to believe that their expenditures are for higher causes related to saving the world. But think of all of those fencing and tiddly winks national championships and All Americans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 42 minutes ago, morris buttermaker said: "So much is left over after paying the athletic bills, OSU each year transfers some money from its athletic department to the academic side of campus. The transfer was $8.6 million in 2013-14 and $8.3 million a year earlier, according to the school's last two financial reports to the NCAA." Hmm. So, maybe I will edit a previous post. Instead of saying that their debt consists of things that they "Can't Pay For", it would read, "Things that they Don't Want to Pay For"? No problem, they can lay that burden on the State, since they are a public institution. Just keep spending borrowed money on those "good and noble" causes down there in Cowlumbus Edited March 31, 2017 by skip-zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 14 minutes ago, skip-zip said: You missed the part that said that 30% of their debt is attributed to "new student amenities". I'm sure that has no impact on student/athlete recruiting, and becomes no benefit to those people once they enroll. I'm glad that they think their expenses will lead to the cure for Cancer. I'm disappointed that you're sold on their BS to attempt to lead people to believe that their expenditures are for higher causes related to saving the world. They are amenities that benefit the student body as a whole. They aren't solely built to advance the athletic program as you are trying to play this off as. You still haven't explained why OSU spent a $1.1 Billion on a medical facility if they don't care about advancing themselves on the academic side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZippyRulz Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, LZIp said: Skip, can you provide a link to OSU's financials? Not to steal Skip's thunder but....enjoy: https://controller.osu.edu/acc/2015_fin_rpt.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Skip, I like a lot of the stuff you post on this forum. That being said when it comes to anything OSU related you skew facts as much as you can in an attempt to get your personal agenda a crossed. You tried claiming OSU athletic department is 100% responsible for OSU $2.5 Billion debt load when it is the only athletic program in Ohio, and only 1 of maybe a dozen in the country that relies on absolutely 0 institutional support to fund its operations. If you want to turn this into an argument that OSU spent too much money on its student union, medical research building, dorms, etc. I'd actually agree with you. I'd say the same about Akron, Kent, Ohio, Miami, Bowling Green, and Toledo as well. Edited March 31, 2017 by kreed5120 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morris buttermaker Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 45 minutes ago, skip-zip said: Hmm. So, maybe I will edit a previous post. Instead of saying that their debt consists of things that they "Can't Pay For", it would read, "Things that they Don't Want to Pay For"? No problem, they can lay that burden on the State, since they are a public institution. Just keep spending borrowed money on those "good and noble" causes down there in Cowlumbus Who is paying for what they don't want? What burden? There are no fees to the students, and no general $ are moved from the University to athletics... the dept is self sufficient. I think OSU came into this conversation because Akron should not worry about what ANYONE else is doing, and that OSU is the only school in Ohio that can do what they want salary wise because their business model is the only one that works. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, kreed5120 said: If you want to turn this into an argument that OSU spent too much money on its student union, medical research building, dorms, etc. I'd actually agree with you. Kreed, by the way, I enjoy many of your posts as well. But no, this is not where I'm going at all. Everyone does indeed spend too much on buildings. But I'm trying to keep this on topic...as best that I can. I see meaningless sports coaches making 300k-500k or more at an Ohio Public Institution that we have to compete against. Then they borrow Billions of dollars more, spend 30% of it on "new student amenities", and people are too naive to see that this further benefits recruiting and provides further perks for their athletes? I never claimed that what they are spending is solely to benefit athletes. But I can also clearly see how it does, and how it didn't have to be accounted for at all as an athletic dept. expense. None of the numbers I presented are skewed. The conditions under which we have to compete against this school in nearly every sport are skewed. That's what makes the 12-year run of undefeated soccer competitions against them so laughable and enjoyable. And as someone who's invested in this University's athletics in many ways, personally and professionally, financially and otherwise, it pisses me off We're losing badly in an "arms war" against them. That's stating the obvious. But when they can already leverage their resources to gain advantages against us in athletic recruiting, student recruiting, facilities, and publicity.....and you discover that an additional 2.6 Billion have been added to their resources in the form of borrowed money....I'd think that anyone else who cares about the growth of Akron and Zips Athletics would be pretty disgusted as well. Edited March 31, 2017 by skip-zip 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morris buttermaker Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 28 minutes ago, skip-zip said: I'd think that anyone else who cares about the growth of Akron and Zips Athletics would be pretty disgusted as well. I do care about Akron, and the Zips, but I'd also like to be the first to say, that I am not disgusted by OSU. Edited March 31, 2017 by morris buttermaker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K92 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 OSU is an 800 pound gorilla. There may be some fiscally responsible politicians who may want to trim spending at the flagship university for the sake of being fiscally responsible, but it damn sure doesn't have anything to do with leveling the playing field for athletics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 12 minutes ago, skip-zip said: Kreed, by the way, I enjoy many of your posts as well. But no, this is not where I'm going at all. Everyone does indeed spend too much on buildings. But I'm trying to keep this on topic...as best that I can. I see meaningless sports coaches making 300k-500k or more at an Ohio Public Institution that we have to compete against. Then they borrow Billions of dollars more, spend 30% of it on "new student amenities", and people are too naive to see that this further benefits recruiting and provides further perks for their athletes? I never claimed that what they are spending is solely to benefit athletes. But I can also clearly see how it does, and how it didn't have to be accounted for at all as an athletic dept. expense. None of the numbers I presented are skewed. The conditions under which we have to compete against this school in nearly every sport are skewed. That's what makes the 12-year run of undefeated soccer competitions against them so laughable and enjoyable. And as someone who's invested in this University's athletics in many ways, personally and professionally, financially and otherwise, it pisses me off We're losing badly in an "arms war" against them. That's stating the obvious. But when they can already leverage their resources to gain advantages against us in athletic recruiting, student recruiting, facilities, and publicity.....and you discover that an additional 2.6 Billion have been added to their resources in the form of borrowed money....I'd think that anyone else who cares about the growth of Akron and Zips Athletics would be pretty disgusted as well. I don't feel Akron built the student union or rec center to attract athletes. They built those buildings to attract STUDENTS. Akron built the field house and stadium for the purpose of attracting athletes just like Ohio State built Value City Arena in the 90s for the purpose of attracting student athletes. The difference is OSU used self generated funds to pay for their athletic facilities, meanwhile, Akron is using student fees and taxpayer dollars to pay for theirs. OSU has an enrollment of 64,868 compared to Akron who has an enrollment of 26,494 so it makes sense they need more debt on their books as they require more and larger buildings. They also have a greater capacity to pay off more debt as they generate significantly more revenue from their larger enrollment size. Aside from all this they are also the flagship school of Ohio and are a land-grant school. That's why they were granted state funding to help pay for their $1.1 Billion medical center and not Akron or Kent. The reason OSU athletics is ahead of Akron's by the margin that it is has little to nothing to do with anything that you stated. It is because they managed to generate $170.8 million in real revenue, meanwhile, Akron generated $11.6 million if you exclude institutional support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LosAngelesZipFan Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 This is very much like the discussion thread of early 2015 when similar numbers came out... I think UA's investment in its campus, including the Info, were all essentially necessary. The campus was totally transformed, but at a pretty reasonable budget. There wasn't really any crazy expensive buildings put up and even Info, while nice, isn't opulent or crazily overbuilt (smaller and less spiffy than recent high school stadiums in Texas actually). And it was funded at a time when debt was historically cheap. To me, UA got alot of bang for the building buck and it HAD to-- the campus re-build basically brought the campus up to "acceptable" modern standards, correcting 40 years of under-investment in a campus that when I started there in 1985 still looked like a medium sized city's muni college (which is what it was until it was taken over by the state in the '60s). The shocking thing for me continues to be the idea that the 4 NEO universities-- on top of all the redundancies of administrations and classes and overlap of students and funders and efforts-- spend a collective $90 million on sports every year. That is a large amount of money invested amounting to not much of a return for any of them and certainly not much for the area as a whole. Put another way, just this decade will end up with nearly a billion dollars being spent on state university sports in NEO... and the reality is not many people in NEO care that much about any of those sports or teams (at least in part because they are too busy following OSU to give a damn). The lack of interest and split of the audience and support means none of the teams at any of those universities has the scale and funding to progress in a meaningful and sustained way. Everything is just stuck on "spend a lot, don't get much". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, K92 said: OSU is an 800 pound gorilla. There may be some fiscally responsible politicians who may want to trim spending at the flagship university for the sake of being fiscally responsible, but it damn sure doesn't have anything to do with leveling the playing field for athletics. You're right. Their objective is only to make them operate within their means. But any directive that would stop Universities in Ohio from runaway borrowing to spend on their own empire of facilities would at least give everyone the same set of limitations, which does indeed benefit the "smaller schools". 28 minutes ago, LosAngelesZipFan said: This is very much like the discussion thread of early 2015 when similar numbers came out... I think UA's investment in its campus, including the Info, were all essentially necessary. The campus was totally transformed, but at a pretty reasonable budget. There wasn't really any crazy expensive buildings put up and even Info, while nice, isn't opulent or crazily overbuilt I noticed that you used the words "essential", "necessary" and "reasonable". I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes wished that we could have sent our debt ceiling to the moon to build our own little empire. Then I had to remind myself that we are a PUBLIC institution of higher learning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy5 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, skip-zip said: You're right. Their objective is only to make them operate within their means. But any directive that would stop Universities in Ohio from runaway borrowing to spend on their own empire of facilities would at least give everyone the same set of limitations, which does indeed benefit the "smaller schools". I noticed that you used the words "essential", "necessary" and "reasonable". I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes wished that we could have sent our debt ceiling to the moon to build our own little empire. Then I had to remind myself that we are a PUBLIC institution of higher learning. Why do they need limitations? Should they not try to cure cancer so we have a chance to try? I don't get that. If they can afford it, they can afford it. Edited March 31, 2017 by zippy5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LZIp Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) Some real Sanders-esque socialist logic you are spelling out there, skip. Always pictured you as leaning right. Edited March 31, 2017 by LZIp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kreed5120 Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, skip-zip said: I noticed that you used the words "essential", "necessary" and "reasonable". I'll be the first to admit that I sometimes wished that we could have sent our debt ceiling to the moon to build our own little empire. Then I had to remind myself that we are a PUBLIC institution of higher learning. If Akron didn't have to subsidize the athletic program to the tune of $24 million per year, we could afford much nicer amenities around campus. Edited March 31, 2017 by kreed5120 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsy Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 19 hours ago, kreed5120 said: They are amenities that benefit the student body as a whole. They aren't solely built to advance the athletic program as you are trying to play this off as. sure they are. My mother has a wonderful story about the University of Tennessee. When she was there, there was a dorm attached to Neyland Stadium (still there today I believe) that was known as the "Athlete Only" dorm to everyone on campus, where steak and other very rich foods were served regularly but not available to the rest of the student body. I believe she recalls the dorm being "available" on paper to any student, but was absurdly expensive for the time, and strangely always full so it never had any openings. If you want to believe that it's somehow better today that in was in the 1970s when it comes to the corruption in NCAA D-I athletics, be my guest. I'm not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsy Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 14 hours ago, LZIp said: Some real Sanders-esque socialist logic you are spelling out there, skip. Always pictured you as leaning right. Considering public schools are owned and regulated by the community, that falls under socialist doctrine yes, albeit democratic socialism. As are public libraries, public roads, public utilities, the military, NASA, NOAA, etc. Building roads from Akron to rural areas? Socialism. Putting Electricity in the most rural areas of the country that wouldn't have had it otherwise (for economic gain or otherwise) because it's too expensive? Socialism. Putting a man on the moon? Socialism. Thanks for bringing your cold-war paranoia to the table for discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsy Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 14 hours ago, kreed5120 said: If Akron didn't have to subsidize the athletic program to the tune of $24 million per year, we could afford much nicer amenities around campus. Which is exactly the point. A lot of people on this forum are trying to justify this spending as a warranted, tangible benefit to The University of Akron. Bullshit. It isn't. I love the Zips, but I'm not willing to have someone tell me that with a straight face. But, to be open an transparent, I'm part of the problem. I consume Zips athletics and are probably helping to perpetuate the justification of the absurd spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 15 hours ago, LZIp said: Always pictured you as leaning right. Leaning? I'm all the way there. 16 hours ago, zippy5 said: If they can afford it, they can afford it. You may have missed some of the information shared here. They are 2.6 BILLION in the hole financially, which has TRIPLED in the last 10 years. 1 hour ago, Balsy said: sure they are. My mother has a wonderful story about the University of Tennessee. When she was there, there was a dorm attached to Neyland Stadium (still there today I believe) that was known as the "Athlete Only" dorm to everyone on campus, where steak and other very rich foods were served regularly but not available to the rest of the student body. I believe she recalls the dorm being "available" on paper to any student, but was absurdly expensive for the time, and strangely always full so it never had any openings. If you want to believe that it's somehow better today that in was in the 1970s when it comes to the corruption in NCAA D-I athletics, be my guest. I'm not. I think some people are too naive to acknowledge these things. I wouldn't go as far as calling this particular activity corruption, but this is yet another example of how you'd publicly classify expenses under something like "Student Amenities" (they may have even borrowed money and tagged in on the University's debt to build it...sound familiar?) knowing that you're building something that you will use to impress recruits. Then you sell it to the public that this is a necessary expense to help your University conquer the great humanitarian causes of the world, and how it is "not just for athletes", and most people never question it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy5 Posted April 1, 2017 Report Share Posted April 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, skip-zip said: Leaning? I'm all the way there. You may have missed some of the information shared here. They are 2.6 BILLION in the hole financially, which has TRIPLED in the last 10 years. Having debt /= being in the hole. They're doing just fine 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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