IMPORTANT QUESTION?????

[GP1]

I'm wearing my suit of armor, so if you want to tee off on me, feel free. I have something to say that really needs to be said or at least asked. I hope I am wrong.

Is 5 really as good as we think he is? I'm guilty of thinking the kid was a first or second round draft pick. After watching him in a pro style offense, he looks confused and uncertain. Him being drafted in the fourth or fifth round, or even not at all, doesn't seem all that unlikely. This is not the coaches fault either, so save the typing. I understand there are problems such as the offensive line, a hurt hand and lost playmakers, but even when he does have a little time, I just don't see the spark or professional ability of the kid. In the NFL, you either can, or you can't.

I know that to his credit, 5 passed for a lot of yards in the previous offense, but at the same time, it was not a pro offense. They ran a lot of play action passes with little 5 yard dink passes to the tight end. When they did have to drop back and throw the ball, he never looked really good. The NFL is a drop back, down field passing league. Is 5 a down field passer? I'm not seeing it.

Last year at Pitt (I was at three of their games), Rutherford ran the same offense much better than 5 does. Other than Fitzgerald, they didn't have much talent on that team compared to their opposition. I know they went to a bowl game, which they lost, but it is easier to tell me who Pitt lost to last year than who they beat. Can anyone tell me what Rutherford is doing right now? Back to Akron.......

When we watch 5 play, are we seeing a Leftwich or Rothlisberger, or are we just watching a very good MAC QB who really has no meaningful future in the NFL? Personally, and it kills me to say this, I don't see Leftwich or Rothlisberger. In fact, I saw Boston College play Toledo a couple of years ago in the Motor City Bowl, I don't even think 5 is a Brian St. Pierre, who is barely holding on with the Steelers. He was going to be on the practice squad until the Steelers starting QB got hurt. Just so everyone knows, practice players do not make the league minimum. They make about $30,000 per year. 5 would be better off selling copiers.

Remember, there are only 32 teams in the NFL. That is roughtly 96 QBs if each team carries 3 QBs. Not every team is going to turn over one QB so lets say there is competition for 10-15 NFL QB positions each year. Not all of those are going to be filled by rookies. Some will be filled by NFL Europe players, CFL players and free agents. So the field is narrowed down to 5-7 NFL positions. Can 5 fill one of those positions? Will he have the talent to fit into the offense of the team that selects him? It is at least statistically unlikely.

Again, I hope I am wrong. It makes me proud to see Zips in the NFL, but I am really uncertain about this particular Zip. He is going to have a huge uphill battle come training camp and I really do hope he makes it.

In the mean time, we were lucky to have a good QB who gave us those great wins against great teams such as....... well.......... ummmm..........let's see......... that was.........what was that team again............ Howard.......no that wasn't the game..............Liberty........... no, that wasn't the game................Wofford ............no, that wasn't the game.............OU......... no, that wasn't the game.............Buffalo...........no, that wasn't the game.......... Beating those rough tough Can't teams will have to work , because I could go on all day.

Go Zips and see everyone Saturday.

[Captain Kangaroo]

I've alluded to similar thoughts of heresy in the past.

I dig #5. He's the best QB ever to wear a Zips uniform. He's a great person. He will play in the NFL. He's a warrior that plays with pain and never complains.

Is his arm as strong as Leftwitch's? No. Roethlisberger's? No. Pennington's? No.

Does he have any "storybook wins" against major competition? No.

Does he have any championships? No.

Has he tossed some big INT's late in big games? Yes.

I see the crap that passes for NFL QB's nowadays. Guys like Vinny Testaverde and Rich Gannon are 40, and starting. Doug Peterson is something like a 12 year veteran? #5 will have a nice NFL career. He won't be selling copiers.

I wondered aloud at the beginning of last season what his legacy would be...and metioned it was heading towards that of Archie Manning. A great QB...on some bad-to-mediocre football teams. He's got a handfull of games to shake that one, but I don't think his OL will give him the chance.

I thought Jason Taylor was too small and injury prone to have a serviceable NFL career...so what the hell do I know.

#5 rules. I hope to see his name & # in the Zips "Ring of Honor" soon.

[GP1]

Thanks for your note Captain. I think you may be overstating that 5 has a long NFL career ahead of him.

If he does make an NFL team, which I think has become a 50/50 proposition, I certainly don't think a long career is ahead of him. I think again he is more like a Brian St. Pierre who will be cut by the Steelers at the end of a two year career. Maybe he will get a third year with another team, but probably not.

Thanks again for your response.

[Z-P]

Let me take this one guys.......... :angry:

No big games? Were you at the last Marshall game in the bowl?

This guy has put the entire team on his back for 3 years, and personally willed the Zips into a positions they could win from, only to have the defense let him down time after time after time. Came way back in Madison, only to have the D get burned, came way back in Hartford (injured) only to have missed field goals and no D let him down, stepped into his first game vs OU way back when and lead the team to a victory when we were down..........those are just the quick ones I can call to mind.

You said "Is 5 really as good as we think he is? I'm guilty of thinking the kid was a first or second round draft pick. After watching him in a pro style offense, he looks confused and uncertain." What team and game are you watching? This is the same crappy offense we ran unsuccessfully last year.

You said " I just don't see the spark or professional ability of the kid." Trust me, this young man has the whole package...........he's a pro in the wings.

No Lefty, Big Ben or Pennington??????????? Right he's not. He's probably better than any of them.............look at the programs and teams those guys played on. Now think about what 5's had to work with. End of discussion..........oh yea, and in case you haven't heard, he's got a shot at the MAC all time passing record. Additionally, look at this when you get a chance..........some of his best games have been against the biggest competition like Wisconsin and Virginia (past years).

No long ball? Really? How long is long enough? Tell him..............and go ask him to casually toss it that far for you. Our problem is that since the days of Schifino and Bailey we haven't had a deep threat to throw to. We can't get behind anyone, and haven't been able to for 4 years. Worse yet, his YAC probably sucks cause our guys always get caught from behind...........only Sparks doesn't apply to the above comments, but he was a bit timid as a receiver IMHO.

Damn, I keep getting interrupted here, so I've lost my train of thought.............but from my perspective, almost everything you have said is incorrect.

Having spit all that out, we're both Zip Fanatics, so no hard feelings GP, I just think you are flat out wrong.

[Guest Guest]

No Lefty, Big Ben or Pennington??????????? Right he's not. He's probably better than any of them

Lay off the juice

[Guest Mastodon]

That last post was mine. I'm no pansy

[Big Zip]

Interesting thought GP1 -- Even more interesting how you can blast me for mentioning the poor defense and then throw this up here. At least Charlie has a track record of ability -- as opposed to that of the defense.

But to the point of the question -- I think it'll be real interesting to see if Frye has the opportunity we'd all like him to have. I think Charlie throws a great ball and I believe he'd have played in front of Craig Krenzel at OSU who is on the Bears roster. I also tend to agree with the Cap'n when it comes to the QBs who are filling out rostes across the NFL these days. Although I wouldn't mention Rich Gannon and Vinny -- those guys have proven themselves -- it's the Krenzel's of the world or other back ups I would be hard pressed to put Frye behind -- just pull up the depth charts across the league and look at these guys. Both Detmers are still playing, Rodney Peete, Kordel Stewart those are the names that make you realize the talent level after the starters drops off considerably. I give Frye a better than 50/50 chance of playing in the NFL or at the very least continuing his career -- with Arena Football, the World League and the CFL the opportunities are larger than they have been in the past. Not to mention if you make a practice squad the 2002 cap for 5 players was $340,000 or $68,000 per player for 17 weeks or $4 grand a week -- that's not bad for 17 weeks work and better than selling copiers.

I think the question really comes down did we see something that wasn't there for three years or was Frye that good. I can't believe he was a bad quarter back who happened to play in a great system for him -- then again Tim Couch had great numbers and he's unemployed. At least he pocked $40 million first.

I wish Charlie lots of luck and hope they can turn it around this week -- a loss to UB would be the nail in the coffin for this senior class.

[GP1]

Let me take this one guys.......... :angry:

No big games?  Were you at the last Marshall game in the bowl?

This guy has put the entire team on his back for 3 years, and personally willed the Zips into a positions they could win from, only to have the defense let him down time after time after time.  Came way back in Madison, only to have the D get burned, came way back in Hartford (injured) only to have missed field goals and no D let him down, stepped into his first game vs OU way back when and lead the team to a victory when we were down..........those are just the quick ones I can call to mind.

You said "Is 5 really as good as we think he is? I'm guilty of thinking the kid was a first or second round draft pick. After watching him in a pro style offense, he looks confused and uncertain."  What team and game are you watching?  This is the same crappy offense we ran unsuccessfully last year.

You said " I just don't see the spark or professional ability of the kid." Trust me, this young man has the whole package...........he's a pro in the wings.

No Lefty, Big Ben or Pennington???????????  Right he's not.  He's probably better than any of them.............look at the programs and teams those guys played on.  Now think about what 5's had to work with.  End of discussion..........oh yea, and in case you haven't heard, he's got a shot at the MAC all time passing record.  Additionally, look at this when you get a chance..........some of his best games have been against the biggest competition like Wisconsin and Virginia (past years).

No long ball?  Really?  How long is long enough?  Tell him..............and go ask him to casually toss it that far for you.  Our problem is that since the days of Schifino and Bailey we haven't had a deep threat to throw to.  We can't get behind anyone, and haven't been able to for 4 years.  Worse yet, his YAC probably sucks cause our guys always get caught from behind...........only Sparks doesn't apply to the above comments, but he was a bit timid as a receiver IMHO.

Damn, I keep getting interrupted here, so I've lost my train of thought.............but from my perspective, almost everything you have said is incorrect.

Having spit all that out, we're both Zip Fanatics, so no hard feelings GP, I just think you are flat out wrong.

Let me answer you questions since you raise them.

1. "No big games? Were you at the last Marshall game in the bowl?"

Answer: Yes I was, and anyone with half of a brain would know that Marshall would have rolled all over Akron U. if Leftwich had not gotten hurt.

2. "This guy has put the entire team on his back for 3 years, and personally willed the Zips into a positions they could win from, only to have the defense let him down time after time after time. Came way back in Madison, only to have the D get burned, came way back in Hartford (injured) only to have missed field goals and no D let him down, stepped into his first game vs OU way back when and lead the team to a victory when we were down..........those are just the quick ones I can call to mind."

Answer: The kid doesn't win in big games. I'm looking at t press guide right now, and in the past three years they have gone 4-7, 4-8 and 7-5. Three of those 15 wins were against 1-AA teams so he has 12 Division I-A wins in three years. In the past two years, he has lost to the likes of Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, OU and Can't State. All games we should have won. An NFL QB wins those games by himself.

3. Your Post: "Is 5 really as good as we think he is? I'm guilty of thinking the kid was a first or second round draft pick. After watching him in a pro style offense, he looks confused and uncertain." What team and game are you watching? This is the same crappy offense we ran unsuccessfully last year.

Answer: The offense is much different and all of they players willingly say so. Even 5 says there are multiple reads in this offense when in the past there was only one. News flush, a multiple read offense is an NFL offense. There are also less counters and misdirections.

4. Your Post: " I just don't see the spark or professional ability of the kid." Trust me, this young man has the whole package...........he's a pro in the wings.

No Lefty, Big Ben or Pennington??????????? Right he's not. He's probably better than any of them.............look at the programs and teams those guys played on. Now think about what 5's had to work with. End of discussion..........oh yea, and in case you haven't heard, he's got a shot at the MAC all time passing record. Additionally, look at this when you get a chance..........some of his best games have been against the biggest competition like Wisconsin and Virginia (past years).

Answer: So much BS, so little time, but here it goes. Trust you, why....what the Hell do you know. The fact that you know nothing is indicated by the fact you think he is better than Big Ben or Leftwich.

5. No long ball? Really? How long is long enough? Tell him..............and go ask him to casually toss it that far for you. Our problem is that since the days of Schifino and Bailey we haven't had a deep threat to throw to. We can't get behind anyone, and haven't been able to for 4 years. Worse yet, his YAC probably sucks cause our guys always get caught from behind...........only Sparks doesn't apply to the above comments, but he was a bit timid as a receiver IMHO.

Answer: 40 -50 yards accurately, which we when we have seen it this year has been well off the mark. I was at all three of the first three games. YAC has little to do with the ability to throw a pass over 40 yards, which I don't question his ability to do. However, if you still need me to ask him, here it goes.

Dear Charle,

Could you please take a camera to practice and casually toss a ball 40 yards and leave a video of it in the library as evidence of your abilities? I know this evidence does not display any ability to throw the ball accurately, only your ability to throw the ball that far, but there is an idiot who writes on a web site who is wants me to demand evidence, so if you could do me this one favor, I would be eternally grateful.

Sincerely,

GP1

[Z-P]

Holy Cow GP..........

You ask to get smacked in the opening line of your post, then when someone comes up and does it you act like a baby.

More.........

Let's see.....how can we rate QB's..........you tell me and we'll look at the numbers and see where 5 stands vs those other guys. OK? Frankly I don't know, but I'll bet he's right up in there somewhere.

Marshall, 2002. What was the score when Leftwich went out of the game? Know that crappy O-line we have this year? For some unknown reason they became Supermen in the 4th quarter as we ate the ball, 42 carrying it for (memory here) 60 yards in the 4th? I think our TOP was in excess of 10 minutes. That sir, is what won that game. Oh, and BTW, the game I attended that night saw Lefty come back and fire up his offense to turn them around from the fumble bums they looked like in the first quarter to that fine tuned machine we have always seen.

You said (and I really love this one) "Answer: The kid doesn't win in big games. I'm looking at t press guide right now, and in the past three years they have gone 4-7, 4-8 and 7-5. Three of those 15 wins were against 1-AA teams so he has 12 Division I-A wins in three years. In the past two years, he has lost to the likes of Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, OU and Can't State. All games we should have won. An NFL QB wins those games by himself." Don't think so sir. I'm on the back end of my 50's and have never heard any football player ever admit to winning anything by themselves. Maybe you know better. 22 men plus specialists take the field and win or lose as a team.

Why are you so bitter on Charlie?

Oh yea, love this one too................If the QB has multiple reads, it's a Pro Offense. That doesn't even merit a response it's so silly. Better yet, if the coaches tell the players it's a "Pro Offense" it must be a Pro Offense. Guess my next door neighbors kid playing in 4th grade Flag Football runs a "Pro Offense" too. That's what his coach tells him.

Whatever...............at least this should keep the board flying for a few days.

You were right about that.

ILFSITF

[GP1]

Let me clarify. I'm not bitter on Charlie. In fact, I think the kid is the greatest QB, if not the best player in U of A history. Jason Taylor and Mike Clark might have something to say about that though. Also, he is one of the great players in the history of the MAC. Most importantly though, he is a good person and someone U of A alumni can be proud of.

Secondly, I'm certainly not crying. All I did was supply evidence supporting my case. In fact, I'm trying to convince myself that I am wrong but I keep running into walls. Believe me, my skin is plenty thick.

Let me get back to my main point. As great as he is, it may not be good enough to make it in the NFL. The wasteland of the NFL is full of great college football players who could not make it in the league or had extremely short careers. The average NFL career is very short. Hell, there have been Heisman players fall flat on their faces, which came to mind last weekend when I saw Andre Ware on ESPN2. Even if 5 doesn't make the NFL, he was still a great player. I just wish that by the end of this year, he could take one game and single handedly win that game. Marshall would be a good place to start for U of A and his own career.

Lastly, what a buzz I started. This is fun.

[Guest ***GUEST_racer]

i think number 5 is the real deal. ive seen others qb's like krenzel make some rosters

and #5 has 10x the talent. even in the psu game some of my buddies who are big osu fans were surprised how good he was. they commented that psu was rushing the qb every play with no intention on stopping the run. they were amazed a kid with his size could run and throw with people in his face all game. plus we really dont ever know how healty the kid is. he is always getting beat up but goes out there and gives 100%.

after the first round the money drops way off anyways. as long as he gets drafted somewhere he will get a chance to prove himself. thats all anyone can ask for.

[Dr Z]

I love #5. Not only a great athlete, but a great student of the game. Film junky (I have heard many say this).

That goes over HUGE on draft day in the NFL. I heard the same of Pennington when he was entering the draft.

He will slip on the boards at the end of the season and then rise after teams get to see him upclose.

Good NFL QB. Don't question it.

I Wonder if Jason Taylor will have any say on getting him on his team. I think #5 can play for them right now.

[Guest BZ]

I have thought the same thing of Frye. I never had the gonads to say it though.

His arm is average at best. He doesn't throw a good deep ball.

Anyone decent QB can complete 70% of his passes if they are all for 5 yards.

Some people here have probably put in his head that he is the next big thing in the NFL.

Some call him Superman, I think not. UA has a Frye for Heisman campaign. The entire idea is a joke. He is a good MAC QB, and may be a mid round pick, but that's about it.

[GP1]

BZ,

Thanks for your comments. Don't belittle the completion percentage though. I don't care what level of football someone is playing, he had a 63.8% completion percentage coming into the year and that is outstanding. I agree with your other points though. Arm strength is a major key in the NFL. Keep your fingers crossed for 5's sake though.

Is there anyone else out there with the balls to raise questions? Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid people.

[Zipsrifle]

My take on Frye is this. I have to say that he is on Par with Pennington, Leftwich, or Rothlesberger. Look at these guys and the teams they played on, they got to Bowl games because they were an overall SOLID team.

Frye has been surrounded by Average to below average talent (with some exceptions) for the past couple years. If you were to plug him into any major program, he would light it up. He has been running for his life the entire time, more so this year. GP1 is right that Frye hasn't been perfect, who is? He's made some bad passes when it was crutial, but that is going to happen when you make 99% of the big plays. Outside of Frye, there haven't been a lot of guys who step up and make the big play when it's needed. Also, the opposing teams know he's the man, the only man at UA so he's got a price on his head every game. Finally, I can't make too many comments on his long ball because I haven't really seen him throw one too many times this year. When he does, he's scrambling for his life.

Bottom line is this. He's been under pressure the entire time he's been at UA. He's put up amazing numbers and is challenging the best in MAC history despite playing on a crappy team and not seeing any Bowl games. I'll tell you what, I can't wait to see what he does next year when he isn't looking over his shoulder every play.

One more thing, I think that Zack Derr was outstanding. It would have been nice to see what he could have done if he had a shot in the NFL. Is he playing anywhere?

[GP1]

Zack Derr was in training camp for one year with the Cowboys and was cut prior to playing in any regular season games. Kicker is probably the most difficult position to make it because if you don't get with the right team, you're finished.

I see him at games some times, so he must still be living in NE Ohio.

[Hilltopper]

GP1, just how many games have you actually seen Frye play? He has plenty of arm strength for the NFL game. During the M Tenn game this season there was a play where he made a perfect 50 yd. throw while being drug down to the ground. The ball was on a rope ond hit Montgomery on the numbers.....he dropped it! Frye is big, mobile, fearless and more than enough arm for the boys on sundays.

[Guest Guest]

Very interesting posts on Charlie....I never knew this many pro scouts followed the Zip football team.

GP seemed to lighten up a little as the conversation continued. Still not sure if he's a Zip fan, Pitt fan or Ben's long-lost relative. And I'm glad to hear Leftwich's injury gets sole credit for the Marshall victory! How many INT's did BL throw in that game?

Anyway, so many factors come into play whether a QB makes an NFL team, especially the system. #5 definitely has the ability, the question now is whether the right team obtains his rights..........and some team will, believe me.

Actually, I continue to be amazed at the constant comparisons between Charlie and other MAC QBs in the NFL. All of these guys played on fantastic teams with running games and a defense. What has Charlie had to support him? Frankly, Tom Brady wouldn't have had a chance with this line and supporting cast.

Finally, is there even a reason for Charlie to play football anymore since some say the MAC has produced a few QBs that may be better? Each day, the only person Charlie has to be better than is........ himself and once again, he will prove himself at the next level.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Very interesting posts on Charlie....I never knew this many pro scouts followed the Zip football team.

Keep in mind, there are "real" pro scouts out there...guys who's sole job is evaluating college football talent...guys who get paid well in excess of $100K per year to do so...and such "experts", armed with films, combine workouts, IQ tests, etc. spend millions of dollars of their company's/team's money on:

Ryan Leaf

Cade McNown

Akili Smith

Tim Couch

These are just a few names from the recent past.

Sufficive to say...no one on this board knows what they're talking about . But the purpose of the board, and what makes it interesting, is seeing what's on people's minds.

I've seen Leftwitch and Roethlisberger play. Both have stronger arms than #5. However, they probably have stronger arms than Joe Montana and Ken Stabler too. Certainly does't mean they're a better QB.

I remember the first time #5 walked onto the field after Sparks got injured against OU. After about 6 plays my friends and I looked at each other and said, "Damn, this kid's gonna be awesome." You could tell he was special from the get-go.

I ain't no pro scout...but if Rodney Peete is starting for someone in 2003...there will be a place on some NFL team's 48 man roster for Charlie Frye in 2005.

[GP1]

Just to answer a couple of questions, I'm a Zip fan. In fact, I go to every game so I would have not said what I did without seeing 5 play. I see a great MAC player, but I'm not sure I see an NFL player.

Second answer. I'm not an NFL scout, but I am staying in a Holiday Inn Express tonight.

I think Captain Kangaroo made a good point when he said that if the right team gets him, he will do well. I agree. The problem is getting with the right team. Sometimes NFL teams take a fourth QB into camp just to put pressure on the third team QB without intentions of cutting him. This situation would make it very difficult for 5 to make the team that selected him. What if that team's offense doesn't allow 5's talents to shine? What are the odds of the MAC producing four star NFL QBs in six years? Certainly at first blush, it would not be something one would bet a lot of money on.

We talk about players making the NFL like it is a piece of cake when in fact it is an EXTREMELY difficult thing to do.

[Dr Z]

Sometimes NFL teams take a fourth QB into camp just to put pressure on the third team QB without intentions of cutting him.  This situation would make it very difficult for 5 to make the team that selected him.  What if that team's offense doesn't allow 5's talents to shine? 

Any team that is going to spend one of their top 3 picks on a player will make it through his first million dollar contract.

Check around the league. PS Don't use the worst run franchise in the NFL as your example.

My last post defending Frye.

[ZipDude]

Nothing better than a great flame war on a BBS, reminds me of last year with that butt from Miami who was a moderator on MAC BBS, when i called him Bennett Cerf.

Now to the point, 5 is the man. The cast of characters this year is different. The failures or less than adequate performances from this years cast to play to 5's strenghts are explanable and understandable and hopefully correctible with experience except for one thing: the OL. thiose guys are a mystery to me big time. The strength of this team besides 5 should be in those 5 guys. The rest: NO 42 PERHAPS THE BIGGEST LOSS CAUSE 42 COULD CASTCH THE BALL OUT OF THE BACKFIELD, RUN IT WHEN THE OL MADE HOLES AND MOST IKMPORTANTLY BLOCKED HIS FRIGGIN NUTS OFF FOR 5 !!!!!!!!! MIKE BRAKE...HUGE LOSS NOT REPLACED. cHERRY , iRV AND nICK HUGE LOSSES NOT TOTALLY REPLACED BUT THERE ARE POSMISES.

OF COURSE THE D STILL SUX.

I AM CONCERNED THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO FIRE LIT UNDER SOME ASSES THIS YEAR. I GUESS THE BOSS DOESN NOT BELIVE IN THE "SHIT ROLLS DOWNHILL" THEORY OF LIFE.

BUT MOST OF ALL I AM SO HAPPY TO SEE MY LITTLE BUDDY FROM NIU COME BACK FIRING HIS AND DOING HIS RANT THING AND MOST IKPORTSNTLY ADMITTING HIS AGE. YOU GO PADRE I LOVE YOU MAN

gO ZIPS BEAT BUFFS. THE OUTCOME IS POSSIBLY IN DOUBT. TYHAT WAS TO DRINK A BREW FOR THE CAPTAIN

[Z-P]

My pallie can't spell because he left school in the 3rd grade to go get a job and support his family. Poor little fella...........

[ZipDude]

There is no damn spell check on this Board dammit.

Get back to flame warring

BTW I was invited to tailgate with some former Zip players for the Buff game but my youngest daughter is going out on her first date to Homecoming at the high school and I have to interview the date and go pick them up and haul them around. Is this an excused absence?

[ZipDude]

You go Padre!