Dave in Green Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 How about that. A team from a MAC-level conference (Horizon) is in the national championship game. Butler shoots 31% from the field for the game, 24% in the second half, and will be playing for the national championship. It can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akronzips71 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 I would love to see a mid-major win the National Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zipgrad1990 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 If Butler can get this far, you would think Akron could at least win a few tournament games. But we need to get there (NCAA tournament) consistently first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpsjugglerdude Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Midmajors lose in National Championships. in epic ways..like not giving up a goal and losing in PKs....or giving up 2 goals in the final minute. My prediction-they are up by 10 with a minute left and lose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted April 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Interesting stat (for those who like stats): Butler is the first team in the era of the shot clock to hold all 5 opponents to less than 60 points in getting to the national championship game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigzipguy Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Happy to see Butler win!!! Go mid-majors. I was dissappointed in post-game interviews. I was hoping they would interview the bulldog!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akronzips71 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Speaking of Butler, what a shame what happened to Butler of West Va. Looks to me like ACL. That could be a career ender. As I sit here recovering from knee surgery two weeks ago. Believe me, I felt his pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippy5 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Speaking of Butler, what a shame what happened to Butler of West Va. Looks to me like ACL. That could be a career ender. As I sit here recovering from knee surgery two weeks ago. Believe me, I felt his pain. looked like a knee-on-knee hit. Terrible pain at first, but usually goes away...Although sometimes (see: Sergei Gonchar getting hit by Ovechkin in the NHL playoffs last year for the hockey fans out there) those hits end up in torn ligaments too. Hopefully it isn't as bad as it looked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
w00t Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Rnk Team Conf W-L Pyth AdjO/Rnk AdjD/Rnk Cons/Rnk Luck/Rnk Pyth/Rnk OppO/Rnk OppD/Rnk Pyth/Rnk 1 Duke ACC 34-5 .9855 123.8/1 85.8/3 21.3/233 -.005/155 .8105/4 107.2/21 94.5/1 .7328/19 Guess who's going to win Monday night. *Hint* I don't need anyone's eyeball test from tonight's games to give me the answer... that "Adjusted O" number above very likely tells the story. Oh wait, I know, WVU's vaunted defense just didn't show up tonight, it's the only explanation for those who really know which side of the floor really makes NCAA champs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted April 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 OK, so Duke is ranked #1 in adjusted offensive efficiency and #3 in adjusted defensive efficiency, while Butler is #50 in adjusted offensive efficiency and #6 in adjusted defensive efficiency. Duke is ranked higher in both offense and defense, so on paper Duke wins. But if all the games were played on paper, Butler wouldn't be in the championship game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 How about that. A team from a MAC-level conference (Horizon) is in the national championship game. Butler shoots 31% from the field for the game, 24% in the second half, and will be playing for the national championship. It can be done. It could be, but it won't be. The Butler/MSU game was a disgrace to college basketball. Both teams played good defense, but let's be honest about what really went on. It's been a long time since I've seen such a bad shooting performance by two teams in a single game, let alone one with such meaning. There were plenty of open shots missed. It's too bad a statistic documenting missed open shots isn't kept because there were a boat load. The Laugh-O-Meter even came out a couple of times. Duke makes one big shot after another and is going to destroy Butler Monday night. So much for defense winning championships. If it did, Duke wouldn't have destroyed that vaunted defense WVU deployed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Rnk Team Conf W-L Pyth AdjO/Rnk AdjD/Rnk Cons/Rnk Luck/Rnk Pyth/Rnk OppO/Rnk OppD/Rnk Pyth/Rnk 1 Duke ACC 34-5 .9855 123.8/1 85.8/3 21.3/233 -.005/155 .8105/4 107.2/21 94.5/1 .7328/19 Guess who's going to win Monday night. *Hint* I don't need anyone's eyeball test from tonight's games to give me the answer... that "Adjusted O" number above very likely tells the story. Oh wait, I know, WVU's vaunted defense just didn't show up tonight, it's the only explanation for those who really know which side of the floor really makes NCAA champs. Good post. The same defense that showed up all year for WVU showed up last night. Last night is what happens when a good offensive team shows up against a good defensive team. Somehow the offense will rise to the top and win the game. Duke hit one early shot after another and WVU was put under pressure to perform offensively and they couldn't. It happens in every sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roo Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 How about that. A team from a MAC-level conference (Horizon) is in the national championship game. Butler shoots 31% from the field for the game, 24% in the second half, and will be playing for the national championship. It can be done. Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoZips Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... Nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kangaroo Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 How about that. A team from a MAC-level conference (Horizon) is in the national championship game. Butler shoots 31% from the field for the game, 24% in the second half, and will be playing for the national championship. It can be done. If all it takes is shooting 31% for the game, and 24% in the second half, the Zips are well on their way to national basketball prominence. We just need to get Brett McKnight a few more touches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted April 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 How about that. A team from a MAC-level conference (Horizon) is in the national championship game. Butler shoots 31% from the field for the game, 24% in the second half, and will be playing for the national championship. It can be done. Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... By what measurement? By the most commonly used measurement of relative team strength -- RPI -- the MAC team average for the 2009-2010 season is 169 and the Horizon team average is 160. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eguins Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... From top to bottom, definitely. Akron, Can't, and Ohio are the best in the MAC and then there is a huge drop off from there on out. From top to bottom, the Horizon League is definitely deeper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zipmeister Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... From top to bottom, definitely. Akron, Can't, and Ohio are the best in the MAC and then there is a huge drop off from there on out. From top to bottom, the Horizon League is definitely deeper. How can you say that? If the MAC and Horiizon played their respective number 1 teams against each other and so forth down the line, The MACs 11 and 12 teams would win going away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatwad Posted April 4, 2010 Report Share Posted April 4, 2010 Except the Horizon is leaps and bounds better than the MAC from top to bottom. It's not even close.... From top to bottom, definitely. Akron, Can't, and Ohio are the best in the MAC and then there is a huge drop off from there on out. From top to bottom, the Horizon League is definitely deeper. How can you say that? If the MAC and Horiizon played their respective number 1 teams against each other and so forth down the line, The MACs 11 and 12 teams would win going away. Let's settle this like the ACC and Big Ten. I propose the Horizon - Mac challenge (Sponsored by MarathonTM) Play em every year, switch the sites, etc. Could be a lot of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted April 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Maybe my previous post on RPI was not graphic enough to make the point about how close the MAC and Horizon conferences measure in relative strength. Below is from the latest RPI rankings, with Horizon teams in bold and MAC teams in italics to more visually convey the relative strengths of the two conferences: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Maybe my previous post on RPI was not graphic enough to make the point about how close the MAC and Horizon conferences measure in relative strength. Below is from the latest RPI rankings, with Horizon teams in bold and MAC teams in italics to more visually convey the relative strengths of the two conferences: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo This list is like a plumber's crack. It's something you know about, you just don't want to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Maybe my previous post on RPI was not graphic enough to make the point about how close the MAC and Horizon conferences measure in relative strength. Below is from the latest RPI rankings, with Horizon teams in bold and MAC teams in italics to more visually convey the relative strengths of the two conferences: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo Dave, Thanks for the data. I think this is close enough to convince me that someone would have a difficult time showing the there's really any significant difference between the two leagues. The MAC East is probably better than the overall Horizon. But with all teams considered, unfortunately, I can't see much difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted April 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Statistics can be parsed and interpreted many different ways. For example, Horizon supporters will point to such things as having by far the single best ranked team, that the lowest ranked team is from the MAC, and that the average team RPI in the Horizon is 160 vs. 169 for the MAC. MAC boosters might note that 3 of the top 5 ranked teams are in the MAC and 3 of the bottom 5 ranked teams are in the Horizon. On a more neutral note, I noticed after posting that if you list the 22 teams in the MAC and Horizon by RPI and draw a line halfway down the list, both conferences have exactly half of their teams in the top half and half in the bottom half: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State --------------------------------- 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo Yet another way to look at the two conferences is to eliminate outliers -- numbers that deviate markedly from other members of the sample -- a common practice in statistical studies. If we eliminate the highest and lowest ranking teams from both the MAC (Can't and Toledo) and the Horizon (Butler and UIC), then the two conferences become even closer. Minus the lowest and highest ranking team from each conference, the remaining 8 Horizon teams have an average RPI of 163 vs. 165 for the 10 remaining from the MAC: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornbread Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 Statistics can be parsed and interpreted many different ways. For example, Horizon supporters will point to such things as having by far the single best ranked team, that the lowest ranked team is from the MAC, and that the average team RPI in the Horizon is 160 vs. 169 for the MAC. MAC boosters might note that 3 of the top 5 ranked teams are in the MAC and 3 of the bottom 5 ranked teams are in the Horizon. On a more neutral note, I noticed after posting that if you list the 22 teams in the MAC and Horizon by RPI and draw a line halfway down the list, both conferences have exactly half of their teams in the top half and half in the bottom half: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State --------------------------------- 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo Yet another way to look at the two conferences is to eliminate outliers -- numbers that deviate markedly from other members of the sample -- a common practice in statistical studies. If we eliminate the highest and lowest ranking teams from both the MAC (Can't and Toledo) and the Horizon (Butler and UIC), then the two conferences become even closer. Minus the lowest and highest ranking team from each conference, the remaining 8 Horizon teams have an average RPI of 163 vs. 165 for the 10 remaining from the MAC: 7. Butler 49. Can't State 87. Wright State 91. Ohio 98. Akron 104. Green Bay 110. Buffalo 126. Milwaukee 137. Miami (OH) 151. Western Michigan 154. Cleveland State 169. Detroit 178. Valparaiso 189. Bowling Green 194. Central Michigan 205. Eastern Michigan 215. Ball State 219. Loyola (Chicago) 266. Northern Illinois 269. Youngstown State 290. UIC 325. Toledo I'll buy it. Compelling argument. That would be awesome to see an Akron run like that sometime in March. You sir, are a internet champion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kangaroo Posted April 5, 2010 Report Share Posted April 5, 2010 I'll buy it. Compelling argument. That would be awesome to see an Akron run like that sometime in March. We can't win a home CBI game against Wisconsin Green Bay. We have a long way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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