How to Get to Where Butler is Now?

[UAZip0510]

I'm sure I wasn't the only one thinking it last night, watching Butler take down #1 Pittsburgh, seeing them advance to the Sweet Sixteen...again...dreaming about Akron one day reaching that level. Of course, that got me thinking...how do we get to where Butler is now?

Out of all of the Mid-Major programs we can model ourselves off of, I think Butler is the best. When looking at past results, you see the impressive statistic showing that they have reached the NCAA Tournament 10 of the last 15 seasons:

NCAA Tournament Results

1997 - #14 Seed - Lost in 1st Round

1998 - #13 Seed - Lost in 1st Round

2000 - #12 Seed - Lost in 1st Round (in overtime)

2001 - #10 Seed - Lost in 2nd Round

2003 - #12 Seed - Lost in Sweet Sixteen

2007 - #5 Seed - Lost in Sweet Sixteen

2008 - #7 Seed - Lost in 2nd Round

2009 - #9 Seed - Lost in 1st Round

2010 - #5 Seed - Lost in National Title Game

2011 - #8 Seed - Currently in Sweet Sixteen

The other interesting note to me is that they made the NCAA Tournament three times before finally winning a game.

Now let's look at their scheduling before and during their NCAA Tournament runs:

Before

1994-1995 - No ranked opponents

1995-1996 - No ranked opponents

During

1996-1997 - #5 Villanova (Loss on Neutral Court), @ #13 Indiana (Loss)

1997-1998 - @ #18 Oklahoma (Win), #15 Stanford (Loss), @ #13 Xavier (Loss)

1999-2000 - No ranked opponents

2002-2003 - @ #5 Duke (Loss)

2003-2004 - No ranked opponents

2006-2007 - @ #22 Tennessee (Win), #16 Southern Illinois (Loss)

2007-2008 - #16 Drake (Loss)

2008-2009 - @ #21 Ohio State (Loss), @ #14 Xavier (Win)

2009-2010 - #22 Minnesota (Loss on Neutral Court), #19 Clemson (Loss on Neutral Court), @ #15 Georgetown (Loss), #13 Ohio State (Win)

2010-2011 - #1 Duke (Loss on Neutral Court), @ #14 Louisville (Loss)

The Schedule By the Numbers:

Record: 4-13 vs. Ranked Teams

Home Games: 4

Neutral Games: 4

Away Games: 5

Using the information above, I have three questions for discussion:

1) How important is it that Butler faced a ranked opponent in 8 of their 10 NCAA Tournament seasons, and 2 or more ranked opponents in 6 of their 10 qualifying seasons? Should Akron begin attempting to add at least two ranked opponents per season starting next year?

2) How much of a gap in talent is there between our current roster and 2000 roster? How much of a gap is there between our current roster and their current roster?

3) What does Akron need to do to become a "premier" mid-major like Butler is now?

[Valpo Zip]

I think we oversimplify the issue when we pretend that changing our scheduling will suddenly take us to the final four.

Scheduling is an issue and can improve our visibility only if we can win. Scheduling ranked teams and getting killed by them does more dammage than good.

To get where butler is we need to bring in better talent. (That's not a cheap shot against our current players).

in College basketball, teams can be separated into 5 categories.

1 - winning high majors (the Duke, NC, OSU, Texas, etc...)

2 - the top midmajors (the Butler, Gonzaga, Xavier, etc..)

3 - the bad high majors (northwestern, miss. state, colorado state)

4 - the decent midmajors (teams with consistent chances to make the tournament, but not much more than that)

5 - the doormats (sucking year after year)

Moving from one category to another is extremely hard. Moving 2 steps at a time is even harder (more on that later).

Needless to say, the zips under Hipsher were in group #5, in that group, you'll be lucky to get a kid with another D1 scholarship offer, you're lucky if you finish your season at 0.500 and you're lucky if more than 1000 people care to watch you play.

KD successfully took the program from #5 to # 4. No one else could have done it so fasr and so efficiently. He brought Rome, Dru, and J-wood. People in Akron started caring and the team started being competitive. A disgruntled walk-on at OSU with the name Dials decided to take a chance on the rising zips and that group of people, under KD made the 5-->4 transition.

Now that we're in group # 4, the zips can recruit a bit better, we can beat another decent mac, horizon or OVC team for a recruit but still not more than that (Zeke is the exception and not the norm). KD can promiss any kid he talks to that they will have a chance to compete for an NCAA bid every year and that they will not play in front of totally empty seats when they play at home.

Now to make the move, we have to go from 4 to 2 because 3 is not an option (no! the big east is not taking us anytime soon). To do that, we need to consistently recruit the Zeke type of players. We need to consistently sell our arena, we cannot loose to EMU and NIU, and rather than scheduling more more ranked teams, we need to schedule less "nobody" teams.

KD successfully made the move from 5 to 4 few years ago. Now can he make the 4 to 2 move?

[GP1]

Akron needs better players and we need to do a better job of developing players when they get here. Steve M was a four year letterwinner and averaged less than nine points per game his senior season. McKnight at < 11 points per game during a senior season? Guys don't get much better here during their soph-senior seasons.

We need a guy like BYU has, a mid major program, who can fill up the rim. A go to guy....we don't have one. Jimmer F. is averaging 23+ points per game. We don't have a single guy who even comes that close. Can't had that guy when Gates was in school. Zeke needs to be that guy. He should be scoring more than 14 points per game in the MAC and he didn't. Next year, he should average at least 15 points per game. A guy like Zeke should end his career with 2,000 points and that isn't going to happen.

I know what everyone is going to say....we are a defensive team.... it's a team game. That's all well and good, but there needs to be a go to guy the team can count on and can fill up the score card. Good defense can win the MAC because as long as you don't shoot yourself in the foot, you can win a lot of games because every MAC team is dying to blow every big game they are in. This topic is about getting to the next level.

What I think a lot of you don't realize is basketball is not the same as football. Different players play on offense and defense in football. In basketball, the same guys play defense and offense. At some point, the good defense needs to turn into offense. If Akron was going to take the next step Friday, that needed to happen. They played good defense, ND was asking them to win the game, and they couldn't get anyone to throw the ball into the basket. Quincy had a quite eleven and Steve M had his usually unimpressive 8 points. If the game was really on the line, who was go to guy who would take the final shot. I can't think of a single guy I would want with the ball in his hands....a BYU fan couldn't say the same thing.

Team game? Fine. Find a guy though who can fill up the rim. Want to get to the next level? Fill up the rim and find a go to guy to do that.

[RootforRoo44]

screw being like Butler or Gonzaga...let's be like VCU!

[jem101]

screw being like Butler or Gonzaga...let's be like VCU!

I figured out the missing link between Butler and VCU and therefore the secret to Akron's success in the future... All we have to do to become an elite program in NCAA basketball is to fire Dambrot and hire a 30 something head coach! Presto! It's that simple!

[UAZipster0305]

Now to make the move, we have to go from 4 to 2 because 3 is not an option (no! the big east is not taking us anytime soon). To do that, we need to consistently recruit the Zeke type of players. We need to consistently sell our arena, we cannot loose to EMU and NIU, and rather than scheduling more ranked teams, we need to schedule less "nobody" teams.

KD successfully made the move from 5 to 4 few years ago. Now can he make the 4 to 2 move?

Bingo! YSU is the only nobody team we should schedule on a regular basis if for nothing else than to have a conveniently close away game and because there are abundant YSU alumni in the area who may not otherwise attend a Zips game.

I want to see Dayton, Xavier, VCU, and Cleveland State (so long as Waters is coach) annually. Sprinkle in Southern Illinois, Creighton, Butler, a few C-USA teams, and low-level Big 10 and Big East teams, and I'm happy.

No more Millikens! D-I only unless for scrimmages or preseason! Regardless of whether we win big or not, nothing says we are a small-time program like playing D-II and D-III programs and counting them towards our W-L/20-win count. The RPI doesn't count them, so I don't.

[Dave in Green]

This is probably going to end up looking a lot like the previous discussion about how to get where Gonzaga is now. In that discussion it was brought out that Gonzaga has made a major commitment to having a top basketball program, including a budget so large that it supports a private jet used to fly around the globe to scout international players. I suspect that VCU and Butler have similar major commitments to basketball, since, like Gonzaga, they don't have major DI football programs and basketball is the unchallenged top sport at each of these three schools.

[UAZipster0305]

This is probably going to end up looking a lot like the previous discussion about how to get where Gonzaga is now. In that discussion it was brought out that Gonzaga has made a major commitment to having a top basketball program, including a budget so large that it supports a private jet used to fly around the globe to scout international players. I suspect that VCU and Butler have similar major commitments to basketball, since, like Gonzaga, they don't have major DI football programs and basketball is the unchallenged top sport at each of these three schools.

I would argue that we don't have a DI football program now either. Besides, I think KD can get us close to where Gonzaga and Butler are without the extravagant expenditures.

[ZachTheZip]

No more Millikens! D-I only unless for scrimmages or preseason! Regardless of whether we win big or not, nothing says we are a small-time program like playing D-II and D-III programs and counting them towards our W-L/20-win count. The RPI doesn't count them, so I don't.

If the RPI doesn't count them, they don't hurt our resume at all. What does quantifiably hurt us are the 300+ RPI teams we play, the only problem is that most of the worst teams that hurt our SOS are in the MAC West and we don't have a choice.

Also, remember that we originally were to open at Michigan State, but they backed out late and left us scrambling and the only team who was willing to fill the spot was Milliken. Replace Milliken with MSU and our schedule looks pretty decent with games against the Spartans, Temple, Dayton, Miami, CSU, and Minnesota all on the road.

I also think what hurt us was not picking up a single marquee win against the good teams that we actually did play. Maybe we should worry about beating at least one of them before we try and load up on even stronger teams.

[UAZipster0305]

No more Millikens! D-I only unless for scrimmages or preseason! Regardless of whether we win big or not, nothing says we are a small-time program like playing D-II and D-III programs and counting them towards our W-L/20-win count. The RPI doesn't count them, so I don't.

If the RPI doesn't count them, they don't hurt our resume at all. What does quantifiably hurt us are the 300+ RPI teams we play, the only problem is that most of the worst teams that hurt our SOS are in the MAC West and we don't have a choice.

Also, remember that we originally were to open at Michigan State, but they backed out late and left us scrambling and the only team who was willing to fill the spot was Milliken. Replace Milliken with MSU and our schedule looks pretty decent with games against the Spartans, Temple, Dayton, Miami, CSU, and Minnesota all on the road.

I also think what hurt us was not picking up a single marquee win against the good teams that we actually did play. Maybe we should worry about beating at least one of them before we try and load up on even stronger teams.

I was unaware of that situation. If that is the circumstance, it is excusable. However, I don't want to see any games like it in the future. It's embarrassing.

Even without marquee wins, this season would have been epic minus the losses to EMU and NIU. I think we had great opportunities to beat Miami and Buffalo the first times around too.

[GP1]

No more Millikens!

Milliken isn't the problem. Everyone plays a team like that every year.

Year in and year out, the Zips lose to teams like Dayton, CSU, Minnesota, Temple and Miami. These programs aren't exactly hitting the cover off of the ball. We need to win games like these on a regular basis if people are going to take the Zips seriously. Until then, we are going to have to settle for winning the MAC as much as possible and going one and done in the NCAA.

[bandzip]

This sounds awfully familiar...

[breezy123]

why don't they just scrap the akron football team and give the money to the basketball team. We can move the new arena to infocision stadium

[skip-zip]

My answer hasn't changed. We need to schedule good enough to have an OPPORTUNITY at an at large bid if we win enough of them, and don't win the MAC tournament. Anything short of that is a waste. We have nothing to lose. The MAC tournament should be the backup option, and not the only option.

[breezy123]

As a midmajor supporter I love nothing more than to see the Colonial League have as many teams in the sweet 16 as the Big East. Very overrated conference.

[Zipmeister]

As a midmajor supporter I love nothing more than to see the Colonial League have as many teams in the sweet 16 as the Big East. Very overrated conference.

Best comment in this thread and right on point.

[skip-zip]

As a midmajor supporter I love nothing more than to see the Colonial League have as many teams in the sweet 16 as the Big East. Very overrated conference.

Best comment in this thread and right on point.

It certainly can't hurt our cause when this happens. I think it at least will make tournament selection committees think twice about who they consider "power conferences".

The almighty Big 10 (or...11?...or 12?) only has two teams left also, same as the Colonial. I guess the Legends and Leaders labels doesn't make their teams actually perform better

[taxpayer]

How to get where Butler is now? Here's my two cents:

1. University Board & President Proenza supports investing in men's basketball as a strategy to raise awareness of UA

and increase the number of student applicants.

2. Pay Coaches - KD is a valuable coach - tell him so by committing $ to him & his assistants

3. Win MAC consistently, win > 20 games/yr, schedule wisely...home & away. Can't trade a loss/exposure for $ more than 2 x yr

4. Increase Recruiting budget

5. Get students to the JAR - winning & better seating arrangement - season ticket holders behind home bench & court

side first row (chairs) Move media off floor or to endzone. Students sit next to band & across from benches - first 5

or 6 rows behind courtside chairs

5. Improve facilities - locker room, strength & conditioning room, trainers room & upgrade JAR seating - get rid of the track, the competition has better facilities & facilities are important to recruits.

6. Improve gameday experience & upgrade lobby & concessions - have local restaurants/bars buy kiosk space & encourage the band director to keep doing a great job involving the crowd.

7. Marketing, Marketing, Marketing - KD is an excellent communicator, get his interviews on the website after each game along with a couple players - Sports Information Director?

[Dr Z]

KD is a valuable coach - tell him so by committing $ to him & his assistants

Coach Dambrot agreed to a contract that has him here until 2016.

PS I agree with both your number fives.

[jupitertoo]

The MAC is proof positive that a bunch of decent size, respected universities cannot stretch their budgets to accommodate both D1 football and high-profile basketball. As a result, our programs are not especially strong in either sport. We have finite resources, but so do schools like Dayton, Xavier, Gonzaga, et al. The difference is that those other schools aren't channeling 7-8 million each year into football. As a result, they have larger recruiting budgets and all of the momentum that comes with consistent NCAA appearances. I love college football, but understand that it's keeping our b-ball programs from reaching their potential. Before Danny Nee left Ohio University in the mid to late 1980s (after having won two titles and making it to the NCAA two or three times), he told the school's president that he could make OU a consistent top 20 basketball school if they downgraded football to 1-AA. They refused and he left for Nebraska.

The same decision faces every MAC school, and no one has had the guts to do it yet. I'd say Akron is now the furthest from making that decision due to the investment in Infocision.

[Dave in Green]

My answer hasn't changed. We need to schedule good enough to have an OPPORTUNITY at an at large bid if we win enough of them, and don't win the MAC tournament. Anything short of that is a waste. We have nothing to lose. The MAC tournament should be the backup option, and not the only option.

My answer hasn't changed, either. We first need to prove that we can handle the OOC schedule we have now before trying to increase its strength. If the Zips go 0-5 in their 5 toughest OOC games one season, it does no good to schedule 7 tough OOC games the next season. All that does is make it less likely to have a 20-win season, and will do nothing to help earn an NCAA tournament at-large berth should the Zips not win the MAC tournament championship.

Here's the 5-step process:

1. Schedule a modest number of tough OOC games. (DONE)

2. Win a fair percentage of tough OOC games. (NOT DONE)

3. Schedule an increasing number of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEP 2)

4. Win an increasing percentage of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2 AND 3)

5. Become recognized as a national basketball power and earn consideration for an NCAA at-large bid. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2, 3 AND 4)

[skip-zip]

My answer hasn't changed. We need to schedule good enough to have an OPPORTUNITY at an at large bid if we win enough of them, and don't win the MAC tournament. Anything short of that is a waste. We have nothing to lose. The MAC tournament should be the backup option, and not the only option.

My answer hasn't changed, either. We first need to prove that we can handle the OOC schedule we have now before trying to increase its strength. If the Zips go 0-5 in their 5 toughest OOC games one season, it does no good to schedule 7 tough OOC games the next season. All that does is make it less likely to have a 20-win season, and will do nothing to help earn an NCAA tournament at-large berth should the Zips not win the MAC tournament championship.

Here's the 5-step process:

1. Schedule a modest number of tough OOC games. (DONE)

2. Win a fair percentage of tough OOC games. (NOT DONE)

3. Schedule an increasing number of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEP 2)

4. Win an increasing percentage of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2 AND 3)

5. Become recognized as a national basketball power and earn consideration for an NCAA at-large bid. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2, 3 AND 4)

Dave,

We seem to be pretty much on the same page here. But, I don't think it makes any difference if we lose 7 OOC games instead of 5 OOC games since we can't get an at-large bid in either scenario. The important thing for me is that we at least have the opportunity for an at-large by putting the teams on the schedule that would impress people if we can win them.

Yes, 20-win seasons are great. But, if the wins aren't good enough to give you a chance at an at-large, it means very little to me anymore.

[scottditzen]

Nice first post.

Welcome to the board!!!

How to get where Butler is now? Here's my two cents:

1. University Board & President Proenza supports investing in men's basketball as a strategy to raise awareness of UA

and increase the number of student applicants.

2. Pay Coaches - KD is a valuable coach - tell him so by committing $ to him & his assistants

3. Win MAC consistently, win > 20 games/yr, schedule wisely...home & away. Can't trade a loss/exposure for $ more than 2 x yr

4. Increase Recruiting budget

5. Get students to the JAR - winning & better seating arrangement - season ticket holders behind home bench & court

side first row (chairs) Move media off floor or to endzone. Students sit next to band & across from benches - first 5

or 6 rows behind courtside chairs

5. Improve facilities - locker room, strength & conditioning room, trainers room & upgrade JAR seating - get rid of the track, the competition has better facilities & facilities are important to recruits.

6. Improve gameday experience & upgrade lobby & concessions - have local restaurants/bars buy kiosk space & encourage the band director to keep doing a great job involving the crowd.

7. Marketing, Marketing, Marketing - KD is an excellent communicator, get his interviews on the website after each game along with a couple players - Sports Information Director?

[Hilltopper]

My answer hasn't changed. We need to schedule good enough to have an OPPORTUNITY at an at large bid if we win enough of them, and don't win the MAC tournament. Anything short of that is a waste. We have nothing to lose. The MAC tournament should be the backup option, and not the only option.

My answer hasn't changed, either. We first need to prove that we can handle the OOC schedule we have now before trying to increase its strength. If the Zips go 0-5 in their 5 toughest OOC games one season, it does no good to schedule 7 tough OOC games the next season. All that does is make it less likely to have a 20-win season, and will do nothing to help earn an NCAA tournament at-large berth should the Zips not win the MAC tournament championship.

Here's the 5-step process:

1. Schedule a modest number of tough OOC games. (DONE)

2. Win a fair percentage of tough OOC games. (NOT DONE)

3. Schedule an increasing number of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEP 2)

4. Win an increasing percentage of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2 AND 3)

5. Become recognized as a national basketball power and earn consideration for an NCAA at-large bid. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2, 3 AND 4)

Dave,

We seem to be pretty much on the same page here. But, I don't think it makes any difference if we lose 7 OOC games instead of 5 OOC games since we can't get an at-large bid in either scenario. The important thing for me is that we at least have the opportunity for an at-large by putting the teams on the schedule that would impress people if we can win them.

Yes, 20-win seasons are great. But, if the wins aren't good enough to give you a chance at an at-large, it means very little to me anymore.

Kids who are winners, want to play for winning programs. Getting your A$$ handed to you 3-4 times per year by playing highmajors on their home court without the possibility of a return home game is useless. After 6 20 win seasons and 5 trips to the MAC championship, we are finally starting to see some interest from a better quality of player than we ever saw before. No offense to the old timers on this board(I'm one of them), but those teams from the sixties and seventies we all remember would get blown out of the gym by our current teams. Winning attracts winners.

[skip-zip]

My answer hasn't changed. We need to schedule good enough to have an OPPORTUNITY at an at large bid if we win enough of them, and don't win the MAC tournament. Anything short of that is a waste. We have nothing to lose. The MAC tournament should be the backup option, and not the only option.

My answer hasn't changed, either. We first need to prove that we can handle the OOC schedule we have now before trying to increase its strength. If the Zips go 0-5 in their 5 toughest OOC games one season, it does no good to schedule 7 tough OOC games the next season. All that does is make it less likely to have a 20-win season, and will do nothing to help earn an NCAA tournament at-large berth should the Zips not win the MAC tournament championship.

Here's the 5-step process:

1. Schedule a modest number of tough OOC games. (DONE)

2. Win a fair percentage of tough OOC games. (NOT DONE)

3. Schedule an increasing number of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEP 2)

4. Win an increasing percentage of tough OOC games. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2 AND 3)

5. Become recognized as a national basketball power and earn consideration for an NCAA at-large bid. (PENDING COMPLETION OF STEPS 2, 3 AND 4)

Dave,

We seem to be pretty much on the same page here. But, I don't think it makes any difference if we lose 7 OOC games instead of 5 OOC games since we can't get an at-large bid in either scenario. The important thing for me is that we at least have the opportunity for an at-large by putting the teams on the schedule that would impress people if we can win them.

Yes, 20-win seasons are great. But, if the wins aren't good enough to give you a chance at an at-large, it means very little to me anymore.

Kids who are winners, want to play for winning programs. Getting your A$$ handed to you 3-4 times per year by playing highmajors on their home court without the possibility of a return home game is useless. After 6 20 win seasons and 5 trips to the MAC championship, we are finally starting to see some interest from a better quality of player than we ever saw before. No offense to the old timers on this board(I'm one of them), but those teams from the sixties and seventies we all remember would get blown out of the gym by our current teams. Winning attracts winners.

I'm an old timer too. And this is exactly the kind of mentality that keeps us right where we are.......a 20 win team that occassionally makes the tournament and gets knocked out in the first round.

I want more. And we won't get it if we keep avoiding games that could potentially put us in a better positon.

Kids want to play for teams that have some good programs on their schedule too.