Zeke

[g-mann17]

I will play devil's advocate. And please, I would appreciate it if no one freaks out and twists my words here (a plea that I am certain will fall on deaf ears):

Compare what we won in the three seasons prior to Zeke, with the three seasons w/Zeke.

BCS wins. Tourney wins. Overall record. Throw in team graduation rates if you so choose.

Where's the difference?

"A lot of what he does can't be measured?" - Yes it can: wins.

We're winning at the same level today as we were 3 seasons ago. Differently style, but the end result is essentially identical.

We did win "The Little Prize" for the first time this year (as described by KD and Nik after we beat K.e..n.t.). But the group from 4-6 years ago won post-season games.

Points for discussion. Feel free to discuss.

Huh?! What's that you say sonny!!!

Zeke's been to the NCAA and won 2 MAC Championships. He continued to be on a team with 20+ win seasons against progressively stronger schedules.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Huh?! What's that you say sonny!!!

Zeke's been to the NCAA and won 2 MAC Championships. He continued to be on a team with 20+ win seasons against progressively stronger schedules.

While this is a Zeke thread, my comments are more "team" comparison oriented. That said -

This year was the Zips 1st outright regular season MAC Basketball Championship.

Teams of the past 3 seasons have 1 NCAA appearance...same as the teams from 4-6 years ago.

Yes, the schedule was more difficult this season. But we lost the bulk of those more-difficult games.

"Potential simply means you haven't done it." This Zips era/team has potential, but they haven't done much to separate themselves from their predecessors.

[GP1]

I will play devil's advocate. And please, I would appreciate it if no one freaks out and twists my words here (a plea that I am certain will fall on deaf ears):

Points for discussion. Feel free to discuss.

Excellent job of doing the opposite.

I'm going to say something as well that I hope others will be at least be open minded about hearing and not go crazy. I'm not certain KD knows what to do with the abundance of talent he has. Don't go crazy anyone, but there are two guys starting for this team that shouldn't be. It's pretty obvious.

Under KD the accomplishments of this program have been broad, such as the number of 20 win seasons and making a lot of MAC Championship games (relative easy league to do it in). With that said, I don't think the accomplishments are deep. We make the MAC Championship six years in a row (broad) and only win two (shallow). We get into the NCAA (broad) and lose the first game twice (shallow). We can't seem to make it out of the NIT first round against an average Big Ten team....Gonzaga does the opposite and beats the pants off of an average Big East team in WVU yesterday. Can't went through a period where they accomplishments were both broad and deep. VCU...Butler...etc.

I'll go even further. A basketball team is more than just the head coach and players. There is a team full of people with various responsibilities beyond HC and players. If anyone is feeling a little sensitive right now and wants to lash out at me, just calm down and keep an open mind. I'm not certain KD has the assistant coaches to deal with a program that is as talented as this team is. Look at the resumes. McFadden has been here seven years with no meaningful experience elsewhere. Weigand, same story. Entirely too long for two assistants to be at a midmajor. Thomas has two years in the NBA (college at EMU), but not enough experience coaching at the D1 level. I'm sure all of these people are wonderful individuals. However, this is a business. Our business model has changed in the past three years, but we have kept most of the same mid level managers around. We are getting the same results. Doesn't make sense to me. A departure of at least one long term assistant might be in order if the program wants to continue at this level of talent. I think this program needs some fresh ideas at the assistant level.

[Dave in Green]

It's hard to argue against the fact that Zeke's presence alone has not produced dramatically better team results in the 3 seasons he's been here compared to the 3 seasons prior to that.

It could be argued that the Zips were at least somewhat better this season than the previous 5 seasons due to posting a similar win-loss record with a much tougher SOS than the previous 5 seasons.

I believe that Zeke has contributed to making the Zips a more dangerous team, but for a variety of reasons team results have not fully lived up to the potential. His ultimate legacy with the Zips will likely be influenced by whether or not the team produces significantly better results next season. He can't do it alone, so it will take a team effort.

You can compare the Zips' results over the last 6 seasons on the following page at StatSheet.com. One key number that for some reason doesn't show up in this graph is SOS for 2006-2007, when the Zips had their best win-loss record in the last 6 seasons. SOS that season was by far the weakest at #217, so the 26-7 record was not as impressive to me as going 22-12 this season with a #87 SOS.

Zips 6-Season Comparison

[GP1]

His ultimate legacy with the Zips will likely be influenced by whether or not the team produces significantly better results next season.

I totally agree. Little by little, the program has gotten better. It's time to stop taking baby steps and have a year where the whole season comes together. That's what this program needs next season.

[Captain Kangaroo]

They play differently and expectations are different.

But the results haven't markedly changed.

But Zeke has made the program better and those around him better.

So did Nate Linhart

I mean look at Northwestern. Zeke's play dictated a game that should have been a W. But it was others that didn't quite get the job done.

I think the list of games where a Zips player played well and we lost is pretty long.

I guess people expect him to be a 20-10 guy. But that doesn't mean we are a better team for it.

If he was a 20-10 player this year...wow, would we have had a hell of a season.

I appreciate your point of view. Next year should be awesome, with Zeke being a senior, and replacing Nitro and Nik's minutes with more Tree and Harney (& others). But I'm an old guy now. I've grown tired of potential...I've heard about it since Ball and Bosley graced the JAR floor. It is time for potential to be realized.

Moderator Note: I screwed up. As a moderator I have the ability to edit any post. I accidentally edited G-Mann's post rather than "Reply." Once I hit "enter" the original was gone. My sincere apologies.

[Dr Z]

I guess it depends on what your satisfied with as a fan. If it's looking at stats that make you feel warm and fuzzy, I guess your happy in your little world.

As an alum, my goal is the same as team members and the coach, I want to win games in the NCAA tourney period. I want to be like Ken+, Ohio, VCU, etc...

What would an Akron basketball fan say if the day we signed Zeke somebody said, we won't win one game in the NCAA tournament during his career.

I would say the staff failed with one of Akron's most talented recruit...stay tuned for next year, it could be a great ride. Like I said before, I circled this year on my calendar three years ago. If I were KD I would coach like I was scared to fall short of our goals next season. I would like to hear KD grab a mic at half time

of a football game and scream that he is not going to rest next year until he reaches his goals.

Zeke has done his part.

I think GP1 brings up a excellent point about our assistants. I think we need some experienced help.

[g-mann17]

Moderator Note: I screwed up. As a moderator I have the ability to edit any post. I accidentally edited G-Mann's post rather than "Reply." Once I hit "enter" the original was gone. My sincere apologies.

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[g-mann17]

I guess it depends on what your satisfied with as a fan. If it's looking at stats that make you feel warm and fuzzy, I guess your happy in your little world.

As an alum, my goal is the same as team members and the coach, I want to win games in the NCAA tourney period. I want to be like Ken+, Ohio, VCU, etc...

What would an Akron basketball fan say if the day we signed Zeke somebody said, we won't win one game in the NCAA tournament during his career.

I would say the staff failed with one of Akron's most talented recruit...stay tuned for next year, it could be a great ride. Like I said before, I circled this year on my calendar three years ago. If I were KD I would coach like I was scared to fall short of our goals next season. I would like to hear KD grab a mic at half time

of a football game and scream that he is not going to rest next year until he reaches his goals.

Zeke has done his part.

I think GP1 brings up a excellent point about our assistants. I think we need some experienced help.

I agree we need to be better.

But saying our problems is because of Zeke not living up to expectations, or saying he hasn't made us better is not accurate.

I believe if we had pressed more this year we would have won games at Valpo, CSU and against VCU. I think we have the talent to be that kind of team.

If we don't get Big Dance wins next year it will be extremely disappointing.

This year was mildly disappointing, I hated Ohio beating us, I hated losing to VCU at home, and I hated getting in the NIT and falling flat when we could have made a statement.

But this was the end of change. So hopefully they have it all figured out on their style of play next year or we are looking at another disappointing 20 win season.

[UAZip0510]

Excellent job of doing the opposite.

I'm going to say something as well that I hope others will be at least be open minded about hearing and not go crazy. I'm not certain KD knows what to do with the abundance of talent he has. Don't go crazy anyone, but there are two guys starting for this team that shouldn't be. It's pretty obvious.

Under KD the accomplishments of this program have been broad, such as the number of 20 win seasons and making a lot of MAC Championship games (relative easy league to do it in). With that said, I don't think the accomplishments are deep. We make the MAC Championship six years in a row (broad) and only win two (shallow). We get into the NCAA (broad) and lose the first game twice (shallow). We can't seem to make it out of the NIT first round against an average Big Ten team....Gonzaga does the opposite and beats the pants off of an average Big East team in WVU yesterday. Can't went through a period where they accomplishments were both broad and deep. VCU...Butler...etc.

I'll go even further. A basketball team is more than just the head coach and players. There is a team full of people with various responsibilities beyond HC and players. If anyone is feeling a little sensitive right now and wants to lash out at me, just calm down and keep an open mind. I'm not certain KD has the assistant coaches to deal with a program that is as talented as this team is. Look at the resumes. McFadden has been here seven years with no meaningful experience elsewhere. Weigand, same story. Entirely too long for two assistants to be at a midmajor. Thomas has two years in the NBA (college at EMU), but not enough experience coaching at the D1 level. I'm sure all of these people are wonderful individuals. However, this is a business. Our business model has changed in the past three years, but we have kept most of the same mid level managers around. We are getting the same results. Doesn't make sense to me. A departure of at least one long term assistant might be in order if the program wants to continue at this level of talent. I think this program needs some fresh ideas at the assistant level.

From what I have gathered from other Zips fans and people close to the program, McFadden has been our main recruiter over the last few years, playing a large role in getting Zeke, Abreu, Betancourt, Walsh, Treadwell, and Harney here. Be careful what you wish for when you wish for change, as I'm sure McFadden will start getting head coaching offers elsewhere soon, if he hasn't already. Good assistants don't get noticed until they're gone...look at what Jeff Boals and Shaka Smart are doing now. Boals, by the way, had zero coaching experience before coming to Akron.

Your post is ironic to me...after six straight MAC Championship games and two trips to the NCAA Tournament in the last four years, I would think we'd want continuity.

[skip-zip]

Huh?! What's that you say sonny!!!

Zeke's been to the NCAA and won 2 MAC Championships. He continued to be on a team with 20+ win seasons against progressively stronger schedules.

Are you referring to the MAC Tourney titles? If so, the 2009 title was won before Zeke arrived. So, he's 1 for 3 in helping us win titles.

But, you can't credit individual players with the titles you won anyway. Kyle Peterson is the most decorated player in Zips history, if you want to go there.

[g-mann17]

Are you referring to the MAC Tourney titles? If so, the 2009 title was won before Zeke arrived. So, he's 1 for 3 in helping us win titles.

But, you can't credit individual players with the titles you won anyway. Kyle Peterson is the most decorated player in Zips history, if you want to go there.

How soon people forget, we won a championship this season.

[Dave in Green]

I try to see the big picture. This season the Zips won a championship (MAC regular season) that they'd never won before. They also lost a championship (MAC tournament) that they'd won 2 of the 3 previous seasons.

It's not all good news or all bad news. It's mixed news. But it beats winning no championship.

[PB1719]

Any other program in the MAC would love to trade positions with us over the last 6 years. Zeke would start for any team in the MAC. Zeke's career can't be defined until it's over, and I for one wouldn't trade him for any other player in the conference. I wouldn't trade the Keith for any other in the conference. I wouldn't trade the roster, assistants or fans. However, I'd trade the JAR for just about anything.

[akronzips71]

Any other program in the MAC would love to trade positions with us over the last 6 years. Zeke would start for any team in the MAC. Zeke's career can't be defined until it's over, and I for one wouldn't trade him for any other player in the conference. I wouldn't trade the Keith for any other in the conference. I wouldn't trade the roster, assistants or fans. However, I'd trade the JAR for just about anything.

Agree

Except the part abut the JAR

I would trade it for a good video feed.

[GP1]

Your post is ironic to me...after six straight MAC Championship games and two trips to the NCAA Tournament in the last four years, I would think we'd want continuity.

If by continuity, you mean getting the same results as losing to teams like CSU, VCU, Duquesne, Valpo, etc....no improvement over big accomplishments such as winning the MAC/getting into post season and being one and done....with more talent than ever, then put me down as someone who is against continuity. I'm less concerned about who a coach brings in and more concerned about what a coach does with a player once he gets on the floor. We are doing a good job of bringing them in, but getting the same results on the floor...that has to change.

[GP1]

I try to see the big picture. This season the Zips won a championship (MAC regular season) that they'd never won before. They also lost a championship (MAC tournament) that they'd won 2 of the 3 previous seasons.

Those are three data points, not the big picture.

[zippy5]

If by continuity, you mean getting the same results as losing to teams like CSU, VCU, Duquesne, Valpo, etc....no improvement over big accomplishments such as winning the MAC/getting into post season and being one and done....with more talent than ever, then put me down as someone who is against continuity. I'm less concerned about who a coach brings in and more concerned about what a coach does with a player once he gets on the floor. We are doing a good job of bringing them in, but getting the same results on the floor...that has to change.

I'm curious if you're starting to feel the same way about KD and Cowher or not.

[GP1]

I'm curious if you're starting to feel the same way about KD and Cowher or not.

I do. My opinion hasn't changed.

Somewhere I saw the statistics about who Bill Cowher beat when a writer was comparing him to Chuck Noll. Noll had to play the Browns and the Bengals four time a year when those teams actually knew how to put good teams on the field. Cowher feasted on an expansion team Browns and the Bengals as they are today four times a year. KD gets to pile up a bunch of wins against a horrible conference. I said it on another thread...20 win seasons are a a broad accomplishment because we have done it so many times. However, since we don't do much with them, it makes the accomplishment shallow. OU now has deep accomplishments in the last few years. To put it another way, we are the pretty girl with nothing much between the ears....Fun to look at, but there are lots of pretty girls so it could be easy to place your attention elsewhere (This statement could start a, Why Doesn't Joe Akron Go to Games? thread). OU is the pretty girl with a brain....the depth of this girl is more than skin deep and is a more desireable person. Think Joe South/Central Ohio is in love today?

To me, the MAC Championship is like th AFC Championship game. It's something you have to win to get to where you really want to be. Cowher lost more AFC Championship games than he should because he couldn't open himself up to doing anything different (BTW, Noll never once lost an AFC Championship Game. Another interesting note, the NY Giants have never lost an NFC Championship Game.). KD has lost too many MAC Championships. Pooping our pants against average teams like NW in the NIT doesn't improve my image of where we are going either.

Winning a game or two in the ncaa would be like winning the Super Bowl. We haven't done that yet, but Cowher did.

There are some crude comparisons between the two. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether or not we think KD should come or go or if he is the guy to really get the program over the hump. He is protected by the University all the way up to the Board of Trustees. My personal opinion is we will continue on with our broad yet shallow accomplishments for as long as KD is at Akron. Which is going to be for a long time.

Since this thread is about Zeke though, I'd like to keep it on topic. Some point to Zeke's comparisons to other MAC centers who have made the NBA. That's all well and good, but after three years, Zeke should be one of the greatest players to ever play in the MAC and I don't think his talents have been adequately developed. He wasn't some "project" coming out of high school. He was a high school All American so the starting point was very advanced. Is Zeke a good player? Hell yes! Is he as good as he could be right now? Hell no! I don't think the coaching staff as it exists today can get Zeke to the point where he would be one of the greatest players in the history of the MAC. Defensive POY is a cute award to win, but he should be winning the overall league POY.

[Dave in Green]

Those are three data points, not the big picture.

The big picture refers to considering both the positive and the negative as opposed to dwelling on one or the other. Examples of positive and negative data points are merely representative.

A narrow view can be painted by glossing over the positive or the negative and focusing on one to the exclusion of the other.

A balanced view tries to consider both positives and negatives in reasonable proportion without exaggerating one or the other to try to make a point.

[UAZip0510]

I do. My opinion hasn't changed.

Somewhere I saw the statistics about who Bill Cowher beat when a writer was comparing him to Chuck Noll. Noll had to play the Browns and the Bengals four time a year when those teams actually knew how to put good teams on the field. Cowher feasted on an expansion team Browns and the Bengals as they are today four times a year. KD gets to pile up a bunch of wins against a horrible conference. I said it on another thread...20 win seasons are a a broad accomplishment because we have done it so many times. However, since we don't do much with them, it makes the accomplishment shallow. OU now has deep accomplishments in the last few years. To put it another way, we are the pretty girl with nothing much between the ears....Fun to look at, but there are lots of pretty girls so it could be easy to place your attention elsewhere (This statement could start a, Why Doesn't Joe Akron Go to Games? thread). OU is the pretty girl with a brain....the depth of this girl is more than skin deep and is a more desireable person. Think Joe South/Central Ohio is in love today?

To me, the MAC Championship is like th AFC Championship game. It's something you have to win to get to where you really want to be. Cowher lost more AFC Championship games than he should because he couldn't open himself up to doing anything different (BTW, Noll never once lost an AFC Championship Game. Another interesting note, the NY Giants have never lost an NFC Championship Game.). KD has lost too many MAC Championships. Pooping our pants against average teams like NW in the NIT doesn't improve my image of where we are going either.

Winning a game or two in the ncaa would be like winning the Super Bowl. We haven't done that yet, but Cowher did.

There are some crude comparisons between the two. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter whether or not we think KD should come or go or if he is the guy to really get the program over the hump. He is protected by the University all the way up to the Board of Trustees. My personal opinion is we will continue on with our broad yet shallow accomplishments for as long as KD is at Akron. Which is going to be for a long time.

Since this thread is about Zeke though, I'd like to keep it on topic. Some point to Zeke's comparisons to other MAC centers who have made the NBA. That's all well and good, but after three years, Zeke should be one of the greatest players to ever play in the MAC and I don't think his talents have been adequately developed. He wasn't some "project" coming out of high school. He was a high school All American so the starting point was very advanced. Is Zeke a good player? Hell yes! Is he as good as he could be right now? Hell no! I don't think the coaching staff as it exists today can get Zeke to the point where he would be one of the greatest players in the history of the MAC. Defensive POY is a cute award to win, but he should be winning the overall league POY.

From a recent Ohio.com article:

“No one understood that he didn’t pick up a basketball until he was in eighth grade when I made him pick it up. I’m the one who got him onto that court,” Bozeman said.

Zeke was nothing close to advanced coming out of high school. He was a high school All-American because he was a 7'0" tall athletic freak. He was absolutely a "project" coming in as a freshman.

Zeke now has the skills necessary to become a POY candidate. He's improved his free throw shooting, cut down on bad fouls, and even developed an inside game, including a nice jump hook.

Zeke's flaw is toughness: mental (getting frustrated after a bad start, not handling pressure well at times) and on-court (not going up strong, getting less aggressive against players who are physical against him).

I'm not sure his flaws are correctable through coaching. Between the coaching staff and his mother, I know that Zeke has plenty of outside motivation. He has the tools he needs to be POY his senior year. It's up to Zeke if that happens or not in his senior year, not the coaching staff.

[GP1]

Zeke now has the skills necessary to become a POY candidate. He's improved his free throw shooting, cut down on bad fouls, and even developed an inside game, including a nice jump hook.

Zeke's flaw is toughness: mental (getting frustrated after a bad start, not handling pressure well at times) and on-court (not going up strong, getting less aggressive against players who are physical against him).

8th grade is early enough to pick up a basketball and have skills at the college level.

[UAZip0510]

8th grade is early enough to pick up a basketball and have skills at the college level.

I didn't say he didn't have any skills, but he was certainly a project coming in, despite his size and athleticism.

[Dr Z]

I'm curious if you're starting to feel the same way about KD and Cowher or not.

Being a fan of both, I see some of the same characteristics in their teams. Anybody remember how Cowher run the two minute drill and used his time outs?!?!