Transfer from WVU -- Pat Forsythe

[Dave in Green]

Pat Forsythe was on campus today with his father (a tall man who wears dark glasses indoors and clearly has little if any vision) and some other folks who were either family or friends. They were looking over the campus and athletic facilities and continuing the process of getting enrolled. Once all of the formalities are out of the way, he should be available to practice with the Zips. He's definitely a big man and looks to be extremely fit. He stopped by the Zips open gym and was really impressed by the up-tempo style of play the Zips were practicing as that's the style he prefers to play.

It remains purely speculative whether or not Forsythe would be eligible for an NCAA hardship waiver transfer that would allow him to play this season without sitting out a year. No one is talking publicly about what might be going on in that area, and it's probably equally speculative what the NCAA would do if they were petitioned. I found a recent article on the subject that at least has some numbers to consider, along with some specific details about hardship transfers related to the health of a family member:

NCAA approves half of all hardship waivers

[LZIp]

I have a feeling (and am hoping obviously) he will be granted the waiver. Really it seems like the NCAA hands these out in basketball. Daddy's boy Trey Zeigler's dad gets fired and he is allowed to transfer to Pitt and play right away? GTFO

[zippyman23]

Forsythe would still need to get permission from WVU in order to use a one-year transfer exception. Considering he didn't go through the proper channels during the transfer process to begin with, it would seem to hurt the likelihood of that happening.

[wadszip]

Forsythe would still need to get permission from WVU in order to use a one-year transfer exception. Considering he didn't go through the proper channels during the transfer process to begin with, it would seem to hurt the likelihood of that happening.

That is true. Though, one thing that could be in Akron's favor is that Forsythe's high school coach, Joe Mackey, is well-connected in the Cleveland-area high school basketball scene. His father, Joe Mackey Sr., who also was a high school coach, started the Omni Fitness Center in Middleburg Heights, which for a long time was the place where out of town NBA teams used to practice before playing the Cavs. Plus, at least when I was in high school (which, admittedly is now 15 years ago), the Omni was where a lot of the top high school players in Cleveland would work out. So, the Mackey name carries some weight in Cleveland. And it seems like Mackey is still heavily involved in Pat's well-being. WVU may want to play nice on this transfer as to not burn any future bridges in Cleveland, an area I'm sure Huggins will continue to recruit.

Overall, regardless of how upset Huggins may be in how Pat informed him of the move, it may be in in WVU's best long-term interest to make Pat's transition to Akron as smooth as possible.

That doesn't even take into account that this situation is exactly why the NCAA has written in the hardship waiver rule. Nothing would surprise me with the NCAA, or even Huggins, but I'll estimate that there is a better than 50 percent chance Pat is eligible to play this year. That's just my opinion, though.

[akzipper]

I would say if Akron were a bigger school we'd have a better chance of the NCAA helping out, but being a midmajor I think it's unlikely he'll get to play next season. Like others have said, they had no problem helping Pitt out.

[wadszip]

Pat Forsythe was on campus today with his father (a tall man who wears dark glasses indoors and clearly has little if any vision) and some other folks who were either family or friends. They were looking over the campus and athletic facilities and continuing the process of getting enrolled. Once all of the formalities are out of the way, he should be available to practice with the Zips. He's definitely a big man and looks to be extremely fit. He stopped by the Zips open gym and was really impressed by the up-tempo style of play the Zips were practicing as that's the style he prefers to play.

It remains purely speculative whether or not Forsythe would be eligible for an NCAA hardship waiver transfer that would allow him to play this season without sitting out a year. No one is talking publicly about what might be going on in that area, and it's probably equally speculative what the NCAA would do if they were petitioned. I found a recent article on the subject that at least has some numbers to consider, along with some specific details about hardship transfers related to the health of a family member:

NCAA approves half of all hardship waivers

Dave,

Just wanted say, good stuff as always. Appreciate the insight.

[wadszip]

I would say if Akron were a bigger school we'd have a better chance of the NCAA helping out, but being a midmajor I think it's unlikely he'll get to play next season. Like others have said, they had no problem helping Pitt out.

There does seem to be a double-standard ... IE, Zeigler to Pitt. No doubt if Zeigler tried to go to Akron (or any other MAC school) it would be shot down.

However, this situation is way different. We're talking about a kid who comes from a single-parent family (raised by his dad who has very little vision). If someone wants to argue, how is blindness a hardship? Here's why. Being that his dad is legally blind, he's probably living off of disability. Getting him even to Morgantown is an expense that they probably can't continue to afford. Also, that doesn't take into account where his dad's eyesight will be in two years. If it's decreasing by the year, he may not have another year to wait in order to see his son play. You add all that up and a hardship waiver seems like a no-brainer.

I'd argue the same thing if he decided to go to Cleveland State and not Akron.

[Hilltopper]

The fat lady is warming up, I'd go with a 90% chance of seeing Pat on the floor this season.

[taxpayer]

I'm anxious to see PF play. Is he an offensive low block presence? If he moves & runs as well as Zeke does the Zips might be more uptempo than any Zips teams from the past. Rather than speculate I will wait for the reports to hit this board once PF actually gets on the floor this month.

[Zipmeister]

I'm anxious to see PF play. Is he an offensive low block presence? If he moves & runs as well as Zeke does the Zips might be more uptempo than any Zips teams from the past. Rather than speculate I will wait for the reports to hit this board once PF actually gets on the floor this month.

You aren't suggesting Wadszip be renamed The Speculator are you?

[wadszip]

I'm anxious to see PF play. Is he an offensive low block presence? If he moves & runs as well as Zeke does the Zips might be more uptempo than any Zips teams from the past. Rather than speculate I will wait for the reports to hit this board once PF actually gets on the floor this month.

I saw him one time in high school. Granted, it was only one time, but it was arguably the best game he ever played. It was a big Northeast Ohio Conference game against Medina (who was led by Michigan State recruit Kenny Kaminski). Pat absolutely dominated and Kaminski did nothing (that was also the only time I saw him play too, and I wasn't overly impressed, but that's a different topic). IIR, Pat had something like 25 points, 15 rebounds and 5 blocked shots and Brunswick pulled out a win on a Forsythe basket at the end.

He did all his work in the low block and was unstoppable. Though, Medina's front line wasn't huge, especially since Kaminski, who was Medina's biggest player at 6-7 or 6-8, was more perimeter-oriented. However, from what I remember, Pat also looked good running the floor. I wouldn't say he's the athlete Zeke is, but at the same time, he's not Mike Bardo. I'd say he's a mix between the two. He has the skill around the rim that Mike had. But unlike Mike, who's skills couldn't cut it at the next level due to the lack of athleticism, Pat's a good enough athlete where it should translate at the MAC level. I'd say worst case, Pat becomes John Edwards when he was at Can't. Best case, he develops into a better offensive and rebounding center than Zeke (though I don't think he will ever be the defensive force Zeke is due to lacking the freakish wingspan). West Virginia and other high-majors recruited this kid (like they did Zeke, too) for a reason.

Hopefully, he is granted a hardship waiver because he and Zeke really compliment each other well. Then throw in Tree and this front line could be scary to deal with.

[wadszip]

Just doing some google research and here is some stuff I found on Pat.

This is an article from the game I saw where he dominated against Michigan State recruit Kenny Kaminski:

http://www.sportsink.com/259/2969/forsythe...na/Default.aspx

Pat was a senior the same year that Strongsville had Iowa recruit (and All-Big Ten freshman) Aaron White. Plus, Strongsville also had Ray Hamilton, a 6-6, 250 pound kid who accepted a football scholarship to Iowa. Sounds like Pat also dominated that game before getting into foul trouble:

http://thepostnewspapers.com/strongsville/...-bbb-2-6-stumpf

Or, how about this one. The NOC was absolutely loaded when Pat was there. On top of Kaminski and White, Garfield Heights was led by Penn State recruit Trey Lewis and top-100 recruit Tony Farmer (Farmer is a senior-to-be this year and is ranked in the top 100 in the country but was arrested for kidnapping and robbery in May). Brunswick lost this game, big, but not due to Pat not showing up. Again, he dominated.

http://www.examiner.com/article/tony-farme...e-and-brunswick

He seems like a kid that plays his best on the big stage.

One last thing. Forsythe was a more heralded prospect than Strongsville's Aaron White. All White did last year in the Big Ten (which was regarded as the toughest league in the country) was this:

http://www.hawkeyesports.com/sports/m-bask...te_aaron00.html

[Z.I.P.]

I'd say worst case, Pat becomes John Edwards when he was at Can't. Best case, he develops into a better offensive and rebounding center than Zeke (though I don't think he will ever be the defensive force Zeke is due to lacking the freakish wingspan). West Virginia and other high-majors recruited this kid (like they did Zeke, too) for a reason.

Just so he doesn't become John Edwards on the campaign stump. Rielle Hunter could cause yet more problems.

[yazan07]

Just so he doesn't become John Edwards on the campaign stump. Rielle Hunter could cause yet more problems.

He was stealing credit cards to pay for $400 hair cuts

[ZachTheZip]

He was stealing credit cards to pay for $400 hair cuts

And some burritos.

[Dave in Green]

Just doing a little more research on Forsythe myself. An important point to remember about him is that he was a virtual unknown through his junior year of HS, when he averaged only about 7 points, 8 rebounds and 3 blocks per game. At the beginning of his senior season, Forsythe's name was not even mentioned in the Rick Bolus High Potential Basketball Recruiting Service list of Ohio’s Top Rising Prospects for 2010-2011.

By the end of the season, after Forsythe averaged 22.7 points, 12.2 rebounds and 6.3 blocks, Bolus ranked him the 9th best player and #1 pure center in Ohio. So Forsythe literally exploded out of nowhere in his senior season. Through his junior season of HS he was unheralded and not really on the national radar. It's extremely rare for a HS senior to go from obscurity to Top 100.

When MaxPreps named its Top 100 HS players from the class of 2011, Forsythe was ranked #71 in the country and #6 among all centers. The #1 player from that class was this year's #1 NBA draft pick Anthony Davis, and the #1 center was Cody Zeller, currently projected as next year's #1 NBA draft pick. Zeller is the same height as Forsythe and 10 pounds lighter. The top 11 players on the MaxPreps list were rated 5 star and the other 89 in the top 100 were all rated 4 star. Forsythe and Zeller were both ranked with 4 stars, and only one player ranked ahead of Forsythe by MaxPreps signed with a non-BCS school.

Putting this all into perspective, it was a huge story when Zeke committed to play in the MAC for UA. Not only was Zeke a Top 100 HS prospect, but he was among the top half dozen true centers in the country. At the time, that was considered such a rarity that it generated national sports coverage. Honestly, it's just stunning that UA has apparently landed a second consecutive Top 100 HS player and Top 6 true center. This is rare for a major BCS program let alone little old UA.

Honestly, I never imagined in my wildest dreams that UA could land another high-potential center to replace Zeke. I expected the Zips to have to soldier on with a 6-8 power forward playing center after this season. It's hard to predict how good Forsythe will become during his UA career. But the mere fact the Zips have landed two consecutive BCS-quality centers is a sign that the Zips are moving closer to national prominence in men's basketball.

Now they just have to execute and WIN!

[akronzips71]

I have to agree with DIG. There is absolutely no downside to this guy. What a coup for KD.

[skip-zip]

Let me just add this. I finally got a chance to ask an old friend who's a coach up north, and is familiar with this kid. His opinion was that he was over recruited out of high school. Whether that means he can be a great MAC player is yet to be seen. But, I got the impression that he felt that WVU-level was higher than the level where he should have ended up.

[mes102]

I wouldn't say he's the athlete Zeke is, but at the same time, he's not Mike Bardo. I'd say he's a mix between the two. He has the skill around the rim that Mike had. But unlike Mike, who's skills couldn't cut it at the next level due to the lack of athleticism, Pat's a good enough athlete where it should translate at the MAC level.

So would Linhart be a fair comparison to Forsythe?

[Dave in Green]

@skip-zip, with all due respect to your old coach friend up north, two of the more successful coaches in college basketball history -- Thad Matta and Bob Huggins -- thought enough of Forsythe to offer him, and Huggins ended up signing him. Beyond that, when Huggins got Forsythe down to WVU, he thought enough of what he saw not to redshirt him, but to immediately make him one of the first bigs off the bench as a true freshman.

While there's room for disagreement on any player, I'm leaning toward trusting the judgments of Motta and Huggins over your anonymous old coach friend. But if Forsythe ends up underperforming for the Zips, I'd like to meet your old coach friend up north and get his take on other basketball matters.

[Dave in Green]

..... Best case, he develops into a better offensive and rebounding center than Zeke (though I don't think he will ever be the defensive force Zeke is due to lacking the freakish wingspan). .....

I believe that Zeke has a 7-foot-5 wingspan. Forsythe was measured in HS with a 7-foot-0 wingspan even before the start of his senior season. Even if he added no length over the last two years, that's still pretty formidable.

[GP1]

Now they just have to execute and WIN!

I about fell out of my chair when I saw these words from our esteemed colleague from Green. Could this mean DiG has had enough of the "building process" and would like to see a "winning process" at this point that involves post season glory? If so, this is a huge step not only for Dig, but for ZNO.

[Dave in Green]

No change at all from what I've always believed. A process is nothing more than a series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result. Winning and losing are not processes, but the result of successful or unsuccessful process execution. The ultimate goal of a sports team building process is to produce a measurable result of winning. Like everyone else, I hate unsuccessful building processes that never reach the goal of winning. That doesn't give me a phobia about all building processes, because there's nothing not to like about a successful process that produces wins.

[GP1]

A process is nothing more than a series of actions, changes, or functions bringing about a result. Winning and losing are not processes, but the result of successful or unsuccessful process execution.

Winning and losing can also be part of a failed philosophy. If you build a process around an unworkable philosophy, losing will take place. For example, the pro style offense Coach I brought to Akron was a failure of philosophy more than it was a failure of process.

If a business leader wants to bring back the horse and buggy as the primary means of transportation in the US, he can put together the best process in the world, but failure (losing) will take place.

Process is for people who don't have much vision. Process is how people pretent to be smart. Process people are the "survivors" of the world. I represent major manufacturers of construction products for a living. Very few executives have a winning philosophy, but their company does well with little intelligence being applied to what they do. All of them have a process (see how Six Sigma is destroying creativity in this country). By the time they really screw anything up, they are off to another job and others are left behind to take the blame and clean up the mess. I see it all the time with thse companies.

Process is easy. Philosophy is difficult because it challenges norms and forces people to act outside of their comfort zone.

[Zipmeister]

Winning and losing can also be part of a failed philosophy. If you build a process around an unworkable philosophy, losing will take place. For example, the pro style offense Coach I brought to Akron was a failure of philosophy more than it was a failure of process.

If a business leader wants to bring back the horse and buggy as the primary means of transportation in the US, he can put together the best process in the world, but failure (losing) will take place.

Process is for people who don't have much vision. Process is how people pretent to be smart. Process people are the "survivors" of the world. I represent major manufacturers of construction products for a living. Very few executives have a winning philosophy, but their company does well with little intelligence being applied to what they do. All of them have a process (see how Six Sigma is destroying creativity in this country). By the time they really screw anything up, they are off to another job and others are left behind to take the blame and clean up the mess. I see it all the time with thse companies.

Process is easy. Philosophy is difficult because it challenges norms and forces people to act outside of their comfort zone.

You were doing pretty good up till the last two sentences.