Bowden Says JAR Needs Replaced

[Dave in Green]

You can interpret whatever trends and attempt to apply logic to them. The data is there for all to see but arguments and conjecture are fluid enough to live on their own.

First, I want to say that I really appreciate your efforts to quantify data. It really adds a lot to the conversation. The main question I have relates to your statement above along with your earlier statement:

No correlation between wins and average attendance according to the data. You can however look at the shifts and trends in ave attendance and draw your own conclusions. I'll put some data together for other colleges (major, mid-major, and other sports).

As I understand it, raw, incomplete data rarely tells an accurate story. The annual CSU raw data is pretty simplistic. It does not include many important variables, and by its nature it's locked into annual silos. So it really does require interpretation and attempts to apply logic to have any significant meaning. Do I understand correctly that this is the point you were trying to make with your statements above?

[Zipmeister]

First, I want to say that I really appreciate your efforts to quantify data. It really adds a lot to the conversation. The main question I have relates to your statement above along with your earlier statement:

As I understand it, raw, incomplete data rarely tells an accurate story. The annual CSU raw data is pretty simplistic. It does not include many important variables, and by its nature it's locked into annual silos. So it really does require interpretation and attempts to apply logic to have any significant meaning. Do I understand correctly that this is the point you were trying to make with your statements above?

Almost all data comes prequantified.

I appreciate his effort to analyze the data, but you are correct; failing to include explanatory variables that belong in a regression model can result in estimators that are both biased and inefficient. However, whether the inclusion of such variables would make the estimated coefficient for wins significantly different from zero for CSU is far from certain.

[GP1]

In this case the arena would be part of an equation that would go something like: Great Coach + Program Stability + Winning Tradition + Elite Facilities = Elite level recruits.

Duke has all of those with the exception of an Elite Facility. They have a historic facility, but not elite. Explain their success.

I'll take a stab at it first. Elite facilities are way down the list of things that really matter. Coaching, winning, stability, alumni support are way above facilities.

[Roo]

I think it takes more than a new facility.

Once the glitz of the idea of a new arena wears off, you are still stuck watching Akron play a bunch of terrible basketball teams in the middle of winter. I am not driving to see Akron play MAC basketball, unless it' Can't or Ohio. I sure as hell am not paying to see them play the team they play in the OOC schedule that they have had recently, outside of less than a handful of games.

Dambrot has nobody but himself to blame for poor attendance. His winning streak of 20+ games is worthless when you factor in how awful the schedule is. Nobody cares that you win in the MAC. As seen by the amount of people that show up to games vs Directional Michigan or Bowling Green. Also, he needs to actually compete in the NCAA Tourney and win a game. Getting there isn't that impressive to Joe Akron. They have to capture the attention of the local like Ohio did and Can't did but also be consistent in getting there and being competitive against top teams.

I would pay to see the local games, Cleveland St, Can't, Ohio etc... at the JAR. I would pay to see them play top mid majors like Dayton, Xavier, Creighton, Butler, etc...etc... I would pay to see them play BCS teams.

Until they upgrade their schedule, nobody is going to watch them play at the JAR and even if they had a new arena, after the first year, nobody will watch them play the same teams they are playing.

However, I assume it is pretty tough to get some of these schools to even consider coming to the JAR without something unfavorable in return. But if BG can get Michigan State to come visit, than the Zips better get something done on the schedule front.

[zippy5]

A new arena wouldn't help bring better OOC opponents?

[ZippyforPresident]

Duke has all of those with the exception of an Elite Facility. They have a historic facility, but not elite. Explain their success.

I'll take a stab at it first. Elite facilities are way down the list of things that really matter. Coaching, winning, stability, alumni support are way above facilities.

I completely agree. In fact, that was pretty much my point. Like HS Stripes said, an arena is just one piece to a much bigger puzzle. Of course having a good coach and program stability are vital to the success of a program. You can have the best facilities there are, but if you can't win a game, the stands will be empty on gameday. Akron basketball has good coaches, program stability, and they certainly win their fair share of games. But other mid major schools within Akron's recruiting footprint have winning traditions too. Look at Xavier and Dayton and where they get to play, or even OU and Marshall. At this point, nice facilities are the one element that Akron basketball is sorely lacking. Having better facilities gives the coaching staff an additional tool to help bring recruits to campus. Is it hypothetically possible for the program to reach a consistent sweet sixteen type of level while playing in the JAR? Maybe, but when you're competing for recruits against other winning programs who have much better facilities, it makes the journey to that point a lot more difficult.

I've never been on Duke's campus, so I don't really know what their facilities are like. But I'm sure if their facilities put them at a disadvantage against the likes of UNC and NC State, they'd build better ones or improve what they have. I'm sure they have the money for it. I'd also imagine that Cameron has a sort of sentimental value to most of their fans, as well as historical significance to college basketball fans in general, kind of like Allen Fieldhouse at Kansas or Hinkle Fieldhouse at Butler, which I believe is currently undergoing a renovation. Those places are destinations on many college basketball fans' lists of places to visit and thus they are "elite" and special. I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you that no one has a bucket list that says "ride the bleachers at James A. Rhodes Arena."

[jupitertoo]

I completely agree. In fact, that was pretty much my point. Like HS Stripes said, an arena is just one piece to a much bigger puzzle. Of course having a good coach and program stability are vital to the success of a program. You can have the best facilities there are, but if you can't win a game, the stands will be empty on gameday. Akron basketball has good coaches, program stability, and they certainly win their fair share of games. But other mid major schools within Akron's recruiting footprint have winning traditions too. Look at Xavier and Dayton and where they get to play, or even OU and Marshall. At this point, nice facilities are the one element that Akron basketball is sorely lacking. Having better facilities gives the coaching staff an additional tool to help bring recruits to campus. Is it hypothetically possible for the program to reach a consistent sweet sixteen type of level while playing in the JAR? Maybe, but when you're competing for recruits against other winning programs who have much better facilities, it makes the journey to that point a lot more difficult.

I've never been on Duke's campus, so I don't really know what their facilities are like. But I'm sure if their facilities put them at a disadvantage against the likes of UNC and NC State, they'd build better ones or improve what they have. I'm sure they have the money for it. I'd also imagine that Cameron has a sort of sentimental value to most of their fans, as well as historical significance to college basketball fans in general, kind of like Allen Fieldhouse at Kansas or Hinkle Fieldhouse at Butler, which I believe is currently undergoing a renovation. Those places are destinations on many college basketball fans' lists of places to visit and thus they are "elite" and special. I'm pretty confident in guaranteeing you that no one has a bucket list that says "ride the bleachers at James A. Rhodes Arena."

Guys, are you reading the news lately? I appreciate the interest in shiny new facilities, but unless someone comes forward and pays for virtually the entire thing, UA is not going to be able to build a new facility for the next five-10 years. $30 million budget deficit this year, and enrollment expected to drop another 3-4 percent, minimum, this fall. There are a lot of bonds that are getting paid off by the university and no financial institution is going to look favorably on another large project when the university's income is declining rather than rising. This is not unlike a situation faced at Ohio back in the early 1970s - the administration overbuilt based on pie-in-the-sky enrollment and state subsidy projections. There wasn't a significant new building constructed on that campus for a full decade until the financial house was back in order. I too wish the Zips could have a new arena, but unless it is somehow a "city" arena downtown, I don't see it happening.

[zippy5]

Are we really comparing Cameron to the JAR?

[Zipmeister]

Are we really comparing Cameron to the JAR?

We weren't, but we could.

One is a decent facility, the other is not.

[LZIp]

Are we really comparing Cameron to the JAR?

In GP1's dreamworld, yes.

[ZachTheZip]

Truth if, is the JAR was built to the original design, we wouldn't be having this converstion. But it was scaled back, repeatedly, from what we wanted until we were stuck with something that was woefully inadequate in almost every possible way.

[Dave in Green]

Almost all data comes prequantified. ...

Not really. The world is full of anecdotal data that hasn't been quantified. Reading any internet forum instantly verifies that.

[Zipmeister]

Not really. The world is full of anecdotal data that hasn't been quantified. Reading any internet forum instantly verifies that.

See if this helps.

[Dave in Green]

See if this helps.

I'm familiar with the definitions for both quantified and data. Can you point me to a definition of "prequantified" that would make sense of "almost all data comes prequantified?"

[Spin]

A new arena wouldn't help bring better OOC opponents?

When's the last time you saw tOSU play at a gym similar to Kenmore high school's?

[GP1]

In GP1's dreamworld, yes.

Actually, I was making the point that there are a lot more important factors to program success than arenas. Please improve your reading comprehension skills.

[Zipmeister]

I'm familiar with the definitions for both quantified and data. Can you point me to a definition of "prequantified" that would make sense of "almost all data comes prequantified?"

Happy to assist.

To illustrate...

2 is a quantity, and it is a quantity prior to an attempt to incorporate it into some statistical analysis.

On the other hand, some qualitative information, such as "good" and "bad," may have to be quantified (i.e., changed to numeric values) before analysis.

[GP1]

I've never been on Duke's campus, so I don't really know what their facilities are like. But I'm sure if their facilities put them at a disadvantage against the likes of UNC and NC State, they'd build better ones or improve what they have. I'm sure they have the money for it.

I've seen Duke's facilities. They probably have the worst facilities of any ACC school all around.

Duke is bucking the trend at universities and spending their money on more important things like....call me crazy...but they are spending them improving their academic buildings so they can remain a world class learning institution.

[legendofzippy]

Once the glitz of the idea of a new arena wears off, you are still stuck watching Akron play a bunch of terrible basketball teams in the middle of winter. I am not driving to see Akron play MAC basketball, unless it' Can't or Ohio. I sure as hell am not paying to see them play the team they play in the OOC schedule that they have had recently, outside of less than a handful of games.

I think this illustrates my concerns. First, Roo, I'm not ripping you. You're being honest, which on the internet is weird, but refreshing. Anyway, I think this viewpoint is the one most in Akron/NE Ohio would relate to - we'll come to a few "big" games, but that's about it.

A new arena doesn't change that opinion. The problem is that there aren't enough "big" teams to go around, plus they want you on their court anyway. It's just the reality of the MAC.

[GP1]

A new arena doesn't change that opinion. The problem is that there aren't enough "big" teams to go around, plus they want you on their court anyway. It's just the reality of the MAC.

Good points. In addition, there aren't enough big teams willing to forego a home game and the cash that goes along with it for a road game against a MAC school for less money. In every case, it is better for a school like Michigan State to play a MAC school at home rather than travel to the MAC school. There is nothing in it for them.

By the time Akron got around to paying the nut it would take to play MSU at home, they could have made just as much money (probably more...actually, probably just lost less) against an NC A&T while guaranteeing a win.

There has been less complaining about the Zips ooc schedule in recent years for good reason. The Zips are playing a solid ooc schedule and that schedule has improved over the years as the Zips have improved. If fans want to point out that 20 win seasons are happening because of an easy schedule, maybe that is true, but the cupcakes run just as deep in the MAC as they do our ooc schedule, so we should be careful as to where we point the finger.

[Big Zip]

This is a pretty interesting conversation.

What I think it points to and it too is an over discussed topic....Akron needs to be in another conference with real or perceived bigger/better schools. Say what you will about Conference USA and the Big East etc. their perceived value is better than the MAC.

[Spin]

So a new arena would have NO value to improving the program??? That's where we're at now?

Ever hear of "recruit visits?" Terry Bowden, the guy who started this thread with his comment, came to Akron (in large part) because it had first rate facilities to woo recruits with.

The past several years we seem to be that one player away from taking the next step. New arena=better recruits. Would you attend Akron today if they still had chalk boards and a cafeteria? And everyone else had modern technology?

Nicer facilities + bigger capacity=bigger crowds. Could we bring in a big program (or even a school with a famous name more from football than basketball) with a bigger arena?

If the university had the forsight of the people on this forum, we would have all been squeezed into Buchtel Hall for class.

[GoZips]

This is a pretty interesting conversation.

What I think it points to and it too is an over discussed topic....Akron needs to be in another conference with real or perceived bigger/better schools. Say what you will about Conference USA and the Big East etc. their perceived value is better than the MAC.

Why is every Summer punctuated with the same old rhetoric about the men's basketball schedule?

The power conference teams are not likely to play the Zips home or away. Just getting a game with them is tough.

Especially when you look at the past two years. Akron beats a respected Mississippi State team in Starkville by ten.

The Zips take a top twenty-five caliber Oklahoma State into over time without Tree or Harney.

Coaches are not stupid. They like their job. Lesson: do not play Akron if you like your job. Sounds like a DISH TV

advertisement.

Currently Akron Athletics is monitoring the new All America Conference (the non-Catholic schools of the old Big East).

A decision to seek admission is being considered. Be patient. That conference could go bust. If it stabilizes and looks

opportune the Zips will make the move. Conference USA* is out. As is any conference without D-1 football.

Most will be pleased with the coming season's OOC basketball schedule. Trips to the Diamond Head Classic in Hawai'i

and South Carolina high light the schedule. For you furballs plan on the trip to lovely Fargo, North, by gawd, Dakota.

Hey, wasn't he a Zip once?

* -- I realize C-USA has D-1 football. For a number of reasons, the University just is not interested in C-USA. Of course,

soon as I post this they will announce that Akron is joining C-USA.

[legendofzippy]

Why is every Summer punctuated with the same old rhetoric about the men's basketball schedule?

Because the fans are a bunch of whiners. The schedule is fine. If people want to see home game against top 25 teams they should be following another team.

It's not just Akron fans, it's all fans. Quit whining and show up to the games. Aren't you there to support Akron anyway? If the opponent matters so much you aren't really a fan.

[jupitertoo]

Why is every Summer punctuated with the same old rhetoric about the men's basketball schedule?

The power conference teams are not likely to play the Zips home or away. Just getting a game with them is tough.

Especially when you look at the past two years. Akron beats a respected Mississippi State team in Starkville by ten.

The Zips take a top twenty-five caliber Oklahoma State into over time without Tree or Harney.

Coaches are not stupid. They like their job. Lesson: do not play Akron if you like your job. Sounds like a DISH TV

advertisement.

Currently Akron Athletics is monitoring the new All America Conference (the non-Catholic schools of the old Big East).

A decision to seek admission is being considered. Be patient. That conference could go bust. If it stabilizes and looks

opportune the Zips will make the move. Conference USA* is out. As is any conference without D-1 football.

Most will be pleased with the coming season's OOC basketball schedule. Trips to the Diamond Head Classic in Hawai'i

and South Carolina high light the schedule. For you furballs plan on the trip to lovely Fargo, North, by gawd, Dakota.

Hey, wasn't he a Zip once?

* -- I realize C-USA has D-1 football. For a number of reasons, the University just is not interested in C-USA. Of course,

soon as I post this they will announce that Akron is joining C-USA.

Not that I would automatically assume you're talking out of your a** about conference affiliation (you seem to be positioning yourself as an "insider"), but you got the AAC's name wrong. It's American Athletic Conference, not All America Conference. Make sure the AD's staff (whom you might be advising?) calls the right number.