Bowden Says JAR Needs Replaced

[GP1]

Conference USA* is out.

* -- I realize C-USA has D-1 football. For a number of reasons, the University just is not interested in C-USA. Of course,

soon as I post this they will announce that Akron is joining C-USA.

I think one of those reasons is CUSA requires a minimum 40,000 seat football stadium to be in the conference. UNCC will start to play this year in their new stadium that is designed to be expanded from 15,000 to 40,000 WHEN they join CUSA. Took a tour of it with some architects not long ago. Real nice place. Concourses are oddly huge, but that's just because of the allotment for the room to expand when needed.

With UofA being as far in the red as they are, the question may be an either/or one....Add 13,000 seats to the Big Dialer or a new basketball arena. Screw it, do both....I don't pay taxes in Ohio any longer. You suckers can pick up the tab.

[jupitertoo]

I think one of those reasons is CUSA requires a minimum 40,000 seat football stadium to be in the conference. UNCC will start to play this year in their new stadium that is designed to be expanded from 15,000 to 40,000 WHEN they join CUSA. Took a tour of it with some architects not long ago. Real nice place. Concourses are oddly huge, but that's just because of the allotment for the room to expand when needed.

With UofA being as far in the red as they are, the question may be an either/or one....Add 13,000 seats to the Big Dialer or a new basketball arena. Screw it, do both....I don't pay taxes in Ohio any longer. You suckers can pick up the tab.

Marshall's stadium doesn't seat 40,000.

[lance99]

Why is every Summer punctuated with the same old rhetoric about the men's basketball schedule?

The power conference teams are not likely to play the Zips home or away. Just getting a game with them is tough.

Especially when you look at the past two years. Akron beats a respected Mississippi State team in Starkville by ten.

The Zips take a top twenty-five caliber Oklahoma State into over time without Tree or Harney.

Coaches are not stupid. They like their job. Lesson: do not play Akron if you like your job. Sounds like a DISH TV

advertisement.

Currently Akron Athletics is monitoring the new All America Conference (the non-Catholic schools of the old Big East).

A decision to seek admission is being considered. Be patient. That conference could go bust. If it stabilizes and looks

opportune the Zips will make the move. Conference USA* is out. As is any conference without D-1 football.

Most will be pleased with the coming season's OOC basketball schedule. Trips to the Diamond Head Classic in Hawai'i

and South Carolina high light the schedule. For you furballs plan on the trip to lovely Fargo, North, by gawd, Dakota.

Hey, wasn't he a Zip once?

* -- I realize C-USA has D-1 football. For a number of reasons, the University just is not interested in C-USA. Of course,

soon as I post this they will announce that Akron is joining C-USA.

I would go nowhere that conference, unless they are able to keep P5 status, and that's ONLY for football.

If a new arena is a condition to go to another conference, then you have to pull the trigger on it, assuming it is the right conference.

[ZachTheZip]

C-USA is essentially the Sun Belt from 10 years ago, plus Marshall. That is not where we want to go. The AAC is basically C-USA from 10 years ago, but with UConn. Better in basketball, and a lateral move in football. Very susceptible to raiding from the power conferences though and by the time we might look to join they might have all the good programs taken away again.

[zippy5]

When's the last time you saw tOSU play at a gym similar to Kenmore high school's?

I think we are in agreement.

[GP1]

Marshall's stadium doesn't seat 40,000.

Source. Seats 38K and change.

I don't know exactly where it is listed, but if you read various articles on cusa football stadiums, they all discuss new stadiums seating minimum 40K or existing stadiums expanding to 40K. That's the number the conference is going to require of its members to have a football team. What cusa is really trying to do is slow the stream of rum dums who are trying to join their league by seeing who is really serious or not.

[Dave in Green]

I've seen Duke's facilities. They probably have the worst facilities of any ACC school all around.

Duke is bucking the trend at universities and spending their money on more important things like....call me crazy...but they are spending them improving their academic buildings so they can remain a world class learning institution.

Krzyzewski.

[Dave in Green]

Happy to assist.

To illustrate...

2 is a quantity, and it is a quantity prior to an attempt to incorporate it into some statistical analysis.

On the other hand, some qualitative information, such as "good" and "bad," may have to be quantified (i.e., changed to numeric values) before analysis.

Hokey dokey, I agree that numerical data is prequantified. However, non-numerical data is not prequantified, and I don't believe that "almost all data" is numerical, especially on internet forums.

[Z.I.P.]

Krzyzewski.

Did you look that up? I know I would have had to! And I was East Liberty Elementary 5th grade spelling champ.

[Roo]

I think this illustrates my concerns. First, Roo, I'm not ripping you. You're being honest, which on the internet is weird, but refreshing. Anyway, I think this viewpoint is the one most in Akron/NE Ohio would relate to - we'll come to a few "big" games, but that's about it.

A new arena doesn't change that opinion. The problem is that there aren't enough "big" teams to go around, plus they want you on their court anyway. It's just the reality of the MAC.

I never said big games only. Im not paying to watch low level MAC basketball, it's awful to watch and the quality is very poor. Ohio, Can't, and a couple of oddballs a year are there and are worth watching.

I have zero interest in Arkansas PB, John Carroll, Texas Southern, Coppin State, Florida AM, NC AT, Youngstown St...the reason people don't go to the games is the majority of northeast Ohio don't even realize that most of those schools really have basketball programs. Why would anybody want to go see that?

Their schedule absolutely is a problem. I love that they go to a tournament or play a big boy on the road. But there is no reason they can't get a 2 for 1 with some of those schools like Cleveland St, BG, etc..etc.. It doesn't have to be a top 25 program. They have to bring teams in that people have actually heard of if they want people to show up. We need more of Princeton, VCU (yes I know Shaka won't play us, just an example) Middle Tennessee, and add in some name schools.

That is the issue I have. We need to badly get into a new conference and sadly, you can't have one without the other. You need a new arena bare minimum to get a new conference. But how do you pay for a new arena without fans in the seats to help the cost and donations?

[GoZips]

Roo, the Zips need fans for all levels of opponents. It is true that "big name" teams draw better. The Athletic

staff would love to have three or four high quality opponents per season. Getting them to play the Zips has long been

a difficult task. The climb up that mountain is a difficult one. If you compare the coming season's schedule with say

10-12 years ago you can see the upgrade. And, yes, Middle Tennessee is on the schedule this season. The Zips play

at South Carolina as part of the Diamond Head Classic.

It is also necessary to have mid and low major opponents for a variety of reasons. Cost is a factor. "Tuning up"

especially early in the season is best done against lesser opponents such as NC A&T or Morgan State. A steady

diet of Big Ten teams would be counter productive. Trust the coaching staff. They know what they are doing.

Remember, they are just as eager as fans are to take on the challenge of playing high majors.

It is frustrating for me as a dedicated fan to pass on information when the coaching staff tells me not to. I just want

to challenge Jupitertoo to reveal the combination to the JAR arena door locks, since he writes that I am a

fraud. There are posters on this board that KNOW that I know the combination.

I write about Zips basketball because I care about Zips basketball. A few dedicated fans do have inside information

that Joe fan does not possess. This is true at almost any school. Most of the tips I pass on are cleared by the coaches

before I write them on ZipsNation. Why? Because that is how they want it. Example: I could right now reveal the

complete OOC schedule. Except, that KD wants it to be released through the legitimate press. It is the correct way

to make that information public.

But, I digress. I am just a frustrated, wanna be something or other.

[Dr Z]

I never said big games only. Im not paying to watch low level MAC basketball, it's awful to watch and the quality is very poor. Ohio, Can't, and a couple of oddballs a year are there and are worth watching.

The issue is the MAC is weak. If you have been a fan long enough to remember when we were a 2 bid conference, out of conference games weren't that big of deal because you got to see a lot of talent IN the MAC. Eastern Michigan used to be good...really. Now we are stuck watching in conference cupcake after cupcake come to the JAR. It's part of the reason we win 20+ each year. Some fans actually enjoy watching the Zips beat up on cupcakes...some don't.

[Zipmeister]

Hokey dokey, I agree that numerical data is prequantified. However, non-numerical data is not prequantified, and I don't believe that "almost all data" is numerical, especially on internet forums.

I don't believe you can prove your non belief.

Do you have any data to back it up?

[Dave in Green]

I don't believe you can prove your non belief.

Do you have any data to back it up?

And I don't believe you can disprove my non belief, so we'll both go on believing what we did when the discussion started. A lifetime of accumulated anecdotal data suggests to me that this is the way most internet forum discussions end, but I have no numerical data to prove it.

[taxpayer]

Here's some things I think I think:

Akron in general doesn't care about Zips basketball. Akron students, in general, don't care about Zips basketball.

No interest = no attendance

The JAR could be a good venue if actions were taken to improve it. The staff has below average offices , the players have above average locker room & lounge. Weight room is average, training room is nice if it was 1920. The floor is average and the practice gym is non existent. So from a recruit's perspective it's way down the list even in the MAC.

From a paying customer's perspective: it's bad. The good:

Parking is free. Where else can you go to a game and park free? Some of you are complaining that the walk is too far; you're the same people who complains when free beer is available that the cups are too small.

The Zips are good; not Duke, but good. Especially in the MAC. It's not the Zips fault that there are too few competitors for the MAC Championship. Nothing wrong with winning it every year. Keep the NCAA talk to another topic for now.

The JAR is a bandbox, when full it's an advantage.

The roof doesn't leak.

That's it for the good. I won't attempt to list the bad, you know it and it is an impossibly long list.

The JAR can be improved and used for another 20 years or however long funding takes for a new facility. Cameron Hall is famous not for it's beauty but for what occurs on the court. Same for Rupp Arena & Butler's facility.

IMO the JAR currently has too much capacity. Yep, you read that right. When 2000 of 24000 students show up for a game & everyone is thrilled.......... pathetic. There is an apathy in the Akron community towards the Zips. I'm too new to this subject to voice an opinion but that's what I see.

A new facility would cause a short term bump in attendance but not worth the cost as it stands today. Putting together a business plan for this subject would be impossible currently to justify a new facility. Rather, improve the JAR, make it attractive to the paying customer & students and develop a ten year plan to build the coveted hoops home.

Remove all bleachers. Installing chair back seats, Capacity will drop. Adding restrooms, concession stands and a "club" (revenue generation) on the track level would drop it further. I'd guess 4800-5000 as a target number. The creation of an environment where a shortage of product is desirable.

Lowering capacity, improving the JAR, and continued winning will build some demand for seating. With UA's budget, economic projections and season ticket sales it's the only realistic path to a better facility unless Santa shows up to pay for a new facility. UA needs to move NOW on improvements; there aren't any improvements being made this off season and KD isn't getting any younger.

This is a time of opportunity not only for the team but for the university; why stand still?

[OU Dude]

The issue is the MAC is weak. If you have been a fan long enough to remember when we were a 2 bid conference, out of conference games weren't that big of deal because you got to see a lot of talent IN the MAC. Eastern Michigan used to be good...really. Now we are stuck watching in conference cupcake after cupcake come to the JAR. It's part of the reason we win 20+ each year. Some fans actually enjoy watching the Zips beat up on cupcakes...some don't.

Ohio home attendance vs MAC opponents-

11,109- Akron

10,846- BGSU

8,483- Can't State

8,428- Miami

7,648- NIU

7,388- Toledo

5,932- EMU

4,846- Buffalo (students on break)

I don't post these numbers just to be a gloating Ohio fan but to push back on the idea that Akron can't develop strong attendance numbers while in the MAC. If Ohio can do it Akron can too. But the JAR's capacity won't allow Akron to beat any of those numbers except the Buffalo game, regardless if you're in the MAC, B1G or Big East.

A new arena doesn't just allow for more seats, but for better seats. I think the Zips would benefit greatly from having a proper student section and better band placement. A rowdy, unified student section down on the floor, close to the action makes the overall game experience more exciting, which in turn will attract more locals and alums. Just my 2 cents.

[legendofzippy]

First, that was a great post by taxpayer. Agree with basically everything.

Second, saying the MAC is weak once again illustrates the overall point - people aren't interested in simply coming out and enjoying the Zips. It's really just an excuse. Akron has had the best team in recent years, but there have been plenty of battles. We're not THAT far ahead of everyone else.

Finally, complaining about the OOC schedule is also just making excuses. Last year we had Middle Tenn. and Princeton, which are both very good programs. So is CSU, though they're so close I'm not sure how to count them.

So until the apathy changes, we're stuck. And I like what Coach Bowden is doing, but if he really wants to help out, he needs to fill up the football stadium. I think it will happen, but why invest in something new when the last investment hasn't worked out as planned?

[Dr Z]

...why invest in something new when the last investment hasn't worked out as planned?

Some can only think in the "now", others know how to plan for the future. Sometimes there is a bigger picture.

[jupitertoo]

Ohio home attendance vs MAC opponents-

11,109- Akron

10,846- BGSU

8,483- Can't State

8,428- Miami

7,648- NIU

7,388- Toledo

5,932- EMU

4,846- Buffalo (students on break)

I don't post these numbers just to be a gloating Ohio fan but to push back on the idea that Akron can't develop strong attendance numbers while in the MAC. If Ohio can do it Akron can too. But the JAR's capacity won't allow Akron to beat any of those numbers except the Buffalo game, regardless if you're in the MAC, B1G or Big East.

A new arena doesn't just allow for more seats, but for better seats. I think the Zips would benefit greatly from having a proper student section and better band placement. A rowdy, unified student section down on the floor, close to the action makes the overall game experience more exciting, which in turn will attract more locals and alums. Just my 2 cents.

Frankly, before the U invests in any more new facilities, it needs to rethink its approach to its most important constituents. I know a LOT of current and former UA students who resent the hell out of the way they have been/were treated by the university. Ridiculous parking fees/experience, other hassles have caused a lot of bad blood among graduates and students who should be the U's biggest supporters (financial and otherwise). How about having to pay a parking fee even if you don't drive a car to campus? That's just ridiculous. How about the way they have jacked around their own season ticket holders with parking lot access? How about investing in some more full-time faculty so students can actually find their professors after class? By changing the culture, you can make a significantly bigger impact on attendance for both basketball and football. Some on here might not like this, but, oh well.

[Zipgrad01]

Frankly, before the U invests in any more new facilities, it needs to rethink its approach to its most important constituents. I know a LOT of current and former UA students who resent the hell out of the way they have been/were treated by the university. Ridiculous parking fees/experience, other hassles have caused a lot of bad blood among graduates and students who should be the U's biggest supporters (financial and otherwise). How about having to pay a parking fee even if you don't drive a car to campus? That's just ridiculous. How about the way they have jacked around their own season ticket holders with parking lot access? How about investing in some more full-time faculty so students can actually find their professors after class? By changing the culture, you can make a significantly bigger impact on attendance for both basketball and football. Some on here might not like this, but, oh well.

So part of the attendance issues with basketball are because students cant find their professors after class???? Give me a break.

OU Dude hit on a few key points. One of the reasons that we have almost 30,000 students and none of them go to the game is because the basketball experience for students sucks. The JAR simply does not allow the students to truly have "their" section and be part of the game (see Cameron crazies, the O Zone, MSU and OSU's student sections, etc..).

I never even went to basketball games, except one or two a year until last year. The team was too fun to watch, so I went to every game. The biggest reason I didnt go before was because I hate the JAR. It is a terrible place to try and watch a basketball game. You cant see over the rails, people walk in front of you on the track and block the court or if you sit down low the angles of the bleachers are so poor large sections of the court are not even visible. Not only this, it feels like I am watching a game at a high school gym. It is embarrassing to take random friends to games because their response is almost always "seriously, this is the gym you guys play in?" You wonder why Joe Akron has apathy towards the Zips. Playing in an above average high school gym can cause people to consider you "small time".

[lance99]

I never said big games only. Im not paying to watch low level MAC basketball, it's awful to watch and the quality is very poor. Ohio, Can't, and a couple of oddballs a year are there and are worth watching.

I have zero interest in Arkansas PB, John Carroll, Texas Southern, Coppin State, Florida AM, NC AT, Youngstown St...the reason people don't go to the games is the majority of northeast Ohio don't even realize that most of those schools really have basketball programs. Why would anybody want to go see that?

Their schedule absolutely is a problem. I love that they go to a tournament or play a big boy on the road. But there is no reason they can't get a 2 for 1 with some of those schools like Cleveland St, BG, etc..etc.. It doesn't have to be a top 25 program. They have to bring teams in that people have actually heard of if they want people to show up. We need more of Princeton, VCU (yes I know Shaka won't play us, just an example) Middle Tennessee, and add in some name schools.

That is the issue I have. We need to badly get into a new conference and sadly, you can't have one without the other. You need a new arena bare minimum to get a new conference. But how do you pay for a new arena without fans in the seats to help the cost and donations?

You really can't do anything about the teams in the conference, lest face it, the MAC West drags everyone down. It is what it is right now. As far as seeing better teams on the schedule, it is a long work in progress. As an example, when the Zips won 26 games and still could not get an At-Large bid, IMO that was a factor.

What do you suggest? Play Miami's schedule from a few years ago? That is not going to happen.

[Blue & Gold]

Not only this, it feels like I am watching a game at a high school gym. It is embarrassing to take random friends to games because their response is almost always "seriously, this is the gym you guys play in?" You wonder why Joe Akron has apathy towards the Zips. Playing in an above average high school gym can cause people to consider you "small time".

Over the years I've taken a number of middle school students to UA games and on a handful of occasions they've remarked, "They don't have a very nice gym."

Again... MIDDLE SCHOOL STUDENTS.

That's revealing/depressing on a few different levels.

[Spin]

The anti-arena people are forgetting a couple things.

Corporate sponsorship. Naming rights was a big factor in the decision to build the Summa Field at InfoCision Stadium and First Energy Stadium-Cub Cadet Field.

Renovation costs of the JAR, to have a nicer gymnasium. We make fun of the idiots who are trying to renovate the Rubber Bowl. But some of us want to do the same thing to this newer, but equally as outmoded a structure. It was outmoded the day it opened.

Then there are the contributors. People who would donate their own money to see this happen. Just like the Info. Just like other projects around campus.

If a new arena could be built, using these sources of money, at a cost lower than putting lipstick on the JAR pig, what the hell's the problem?

A lot of people get their panties in a bunch over talk of football dropping down to I-AA. But they're the first to poo-poo any idea that would make Akron LOOK like a friggen D1 school. Do you want to be Division I or not?

And about Cameron Hall and Rupp Arena. THEY ARE NICER THAN THE JAR. THEY ARE MORE COMFORTABLE THAN THE JAR. No comparison. And THEY HAVE A STRONG LEGACY because of the history of the programs there. They are the Fenway Park and Lambeau Field of college basketball. Both of those facilities were kept modernized and blew the shit out of the newer Cleveland Municiple Stadium in every way as a fan experience anyway.

We're beating a dead horse with some of these stiffs. Like I said, if the people running the U had this foresight, all classes would still be in Buchtel Hall. With black chalk boards and coal heating. The football team would still be playing Western Reserve University and Kenyon in a field in Hudson.

[Dave in Green]

@Spin, you make a lot of good points. Basketball is my favorite sport, and I really, really want the Zips to be playing in a better arena. But I don't know that most of the negative opinions are so much anti-arena as they are doubting that it's the best investment of resources in a down economy, especially when there are no obvious resources readily available. I find it hard to believe that anyone posting in this thread would have any objection if a wealthy benefactor/sponsor stepped up and said they were willing to provide most of the costs of a new basketball arena. It's just that there's not a lot of confidence that's likely to happen.

[Zip Watcher]

They are the Fenway Park and Lambeau Field of college basketball. Both of those facilities were kept modernized and blew the shit out of the newer Cleveland Municiple Stadium in every way as a fan experience anyway.

Fenway's a dump.