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The Dreaded Red Shirt


GoZips

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I think as long as everyone stays healthy. I would not be surprised to see three of the freshman redshirt. tree can play the 5 spot for limited minutes, and jake

can play the four. hopefully big dog can give us 5-10min at the 5 also. Harney at 6-8 s.f. is bigger than most mac schools power forwards, or some centers. gladden is our highest ranked player coming out of high school.everything I read about him said he is a three, or undersized four. never read anywhere that he is a two guard. im sure for 5 min a game d.j. can do the job. he is still a good fit for our team when we press, and fast break on offense. you also have reggie coming off the bench to spell diggs. I don't know to many mac teams who could afford to redshirt 3 out of 4 kids.the other factor is how many guys k.d. wants to play. i like the fact that last year we played 9-10 guys, and wore down some of the other teams in the second half.

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Just don't get the hype around Johnson. He's just too slow. Personally feel like he should get the RS. Yes it's good to have size, but so did some pre-Zeke centers. Bardo and Swiech?

I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see.

I havent seen Johnson play and I doubt you have either, so I'm not sure what your basis is for these conclusions, but even if that is the case, who the hell do you expect to back up Forsythe? Forsythe himself isnt even "proven". Do you think Johnson is going to magically become faster with a red-shirt?

That is exactly what I will be evaluating the first time I am at a game...if he is playing. Possibly Dec 7th or 18th. For sure Jan 2nd.

Im disappointed it will be that long until your first game, Dr. Z.

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Here are some of my thoughts (though I haven't seen any of the practices, or won't be able to make it to the game Friday). But basing it off of what is coming back, and what each accomplished in HS, here is how I see it:

The Big Dog (can I vote to have "The" added to the front of Johnson's nickname ... when I hear "Big Dog" I think of Glenn Robinson. When I hear "The Big Dog" I think of Johnson.) No way he redshirts. The Zips need his size and girth down low with the loss of Zeke. D1 All-Ohio, Cincinnati Enquirer POY, yeah, he's ready. Hopefully, Pat beats him out as the starter, because that will be more proof that this program is on the verge of taking that next step, because both have tremendous talent.

Cheatham: Hopefully, he gets some minutes early on (including heavy minutes Friday) to see exactly what we have this year. However, even if he "has" to take a redshirt year, it would be nothing like a Blake Justice, Michael Green, Dakota Euton, etc. situation. Cheatham is a legit talent. So, even with a redshirt, it says more about what this team has than it says what Cheatham doesn't have. For me, seeing that he is a kid that jumped up from 6-3 to 6-9 in high school, he's the ideal project. Even if he can handle quality MAC minutes, with the likes of Tree/Harney/Kretzer/McAdams/Diggs who are all capable of playing either the 3 or 4, it may better serve the team and Cheatham, by letting him develop for another year. He's the type of player, IMO, who will benefit from a RS, since he can develop into something truly special.

Jackson/Gladden: One of the two will have to RS (again, it shows more of what this team has than what either doesn't.) There is no other team in the MAC that could afford to think about redshirting either. But on this team, there are only so minutes to go around. Like Cheatham, I hope both players get a shot Friday to play some big minutes (and even against Coastal Carolina), to get an evaluation to see which one is more ready this year. Quality depth is quality depth. And if this team wants to be a player in the tournament, one of the two probably finds a role, even if it is 5 minutes a game. This Akron team has enough parts that can be moved around where 5-10 quality minutes can be carved out for one of them (or even Cheatham).

Bottom line, this program is at the point where it has to focus on the upcoming year. All four of the freshman can play a role, but not all four have to play a role. All are talented enough that even with a redshirt, and they want to stick it out, the Zips are going to continue to win with or without them. If somebody wants to transfer, though, there is so much talent in the Cleveland-Akron area coming up, and KD's program is at the point where he will land some of that talent (the 15 and 16 classes in this area seriously can go head-to-head with anybody in the country ... Chicago, Detroit, NY, LA, Atlanta, etc. It's that good.) Win the next couple of years and KD will be able to sell staying home to these kids ... and he already did that with Joshua Williams.

Really, the program has never been stronger. It's a testament to what KD has done recruiting (and being open enough to go after some high upside chances ... Tree, Harney, etc). When they pan out, it leads to the recruiting class like we just saw this past year. If minutes are there, fine. You'll play. If minutes aren't there, hopefully the players realize they are good enough where those minutes will come down the road. If they want to transfer out, fine. We'll bring somebody in to replace you. That's the mark of great program, and something no other MAC program (and a only a few mid-majors in general) are in a position to be in.

It's funny, I've been reading (and posting to) the MAC BBS board more often. Most of the other MAC schools are expecting their incoming transfers/freshman to be program changers (even Ohio ala Beans Willis, who I'm not particularly high on). At Akron, it's at the level where whatever these guys bring is just gravy (outside of PG this year). Though with Betancourt, Evans and possibly Diggs, the Zips are still sitting pretty nice unless both Betancourt and Evans flame out.

If we play both against Coastal Carolina, how can either be red-shirted (fake an injury)?

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Well, I can see that all the Big Dog talk here hasn't raised unrealistic expectations among all forum members. :lol:

Point #1 -- Here's what George Thomas had to say about Big Dog after observing his play at multiple practices and scrimmages and after talking with Coach Dambrot:

There has been a battle between big men Pat Forsythe and Isaiah “Big Dog” Johnson in which Forsythe holds a slight lead. Both are likely to receive a lot of playing time.

Point #2 -- Some thought that Shaquille O'Neal was too slow to play in the NBA.

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Well, I can see that all the Big Dog talk here hasn't raised unrealistic expectations among all forum members. :lol:

Point #1 -- Here's what George Thomas had to say about Big Dog after observing his play at multiple practices and scrimmages and after talking with Coach Dambrot:

Point #2 -- Some thought that Shaquille O'Neal was too slow to play in the NBA.

Dave, you know I love you man, but are you really trying to compare Johnson to Shaq? That is getting WAY ahead of yourself there.

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@Quickzips, I really didn't think that anyone would imagine that I was trying to point out anything other than the fact that speed up and down the court is not an absolute requirement to be an effective center. Shaq is just the most obvious example of a number of big but not fast centers who've had effective careers at the college and professional level. Big Dog actually has fairly quick and smooth moves around the basket for a 300+ pound center. But it's true that he won't be leading any fast breaks. :)

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Coach Dambrot addressed the redshirt situation on the postgame show. As everyone knows, Big Dog is going to play. Asked about the other three, he said circumstances with veteran players may dictate that. He mentioned the question about Kretzer's back problem and the possibility that another veteran player might for some reason develop a problem. He said that all the freshmen are really talented and that they all might be able to contribute under certain conditions. But he used Aaron Jackson as an example of why the other three might need to redshirt. He said that Jackson is similar in talent level to Nate Linhart, and that while Linhart didn't redshirt, the Zips didn't have near the overall talent level at that time that they have now.

Coach Dambrot went on to say that he's talked with all of the freshmen about the concept of trading your worst year for your best year. That is, with the current roster the likelihood of getting significant playing time as a true freshman is not good. But by redshirting and working on your strength, endurance and skills, the odds of having a great senior season and better overall career is much better. He's brought Steve McNees in to speak with the freshmen, as McNees believes his redshirting was really good for his career.

After hearing this, I'm going to stick by my previous guess that BJ, Aaron and Kwan are all redshirted unless a problem develops with one of the veterans. In that case, one or more redshirts can be burned at any time after the season starts. But when you think of the modest talent of some of the players at the end of the bench just a few seasons ago, it's just mind-boggling to think that players of this caliber can now be redshirted at UA.

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Coach Dambrot addressed the redshirt situation on the postgame show. As everyone knows, Big Dog is going to play. Asked about the other three, he said circumstances with veteran players may dictate that. He mentioned the question about Kretzer's back problem and the possibility that another veteran player might for some reason develop a problem. He said that all the freshmen are really talented and that they all might be able to contribute under certain conditions. But he used Aaron Jackson as an example of why the other three might need to redshirt. He said that Jackson is similar in talent level to Nate Linhart, and that while Linhart didn't redshirt, the Zips didn't have near the overall talent level at that time that they have now.

Coach Dambrot went on to say that he's talked with all of the freshmen about the concept of trading your worst year for your best year. That is, with the current roster the likelihood of getting significant playing time as a true freshman is not good. But by redshirting and working on your strength, endurance and skills, the odds of having a great senior season and better overall career is much better. He's brought Steve McNees in to speak with the freshmen, as McNees believes his redshirting was really good for his career.

After hearing this, I'm going to stick by my previous guess that BJ, Aaron and Kwan are all redshirted unless a problem develops with one of the veterans. In that case, one or more redshirts can be burned at any time after the season starts. But when you think of the modest talent of some of the players at the end of the bench just a few seasons ago, it's just mind-boggling to think that players of this caliber can now be redshirted at UA.

I will be EXTREMELY surprised if Kwan red shirts. IMHO he can contribute more than Pat right now. Pat is reminding me more and more of Mike Bardo.

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Kwan Cheatham is a unique talent. He made some jaw-dropping moves tonight. If you look at the box score, Kwan played 20 minutes, second only to Tree's 22. That's a sure sign that Coach Dambrot is intrigued by his potential. But Kwan is still pretty raw in some ways, and there's no question that he would be a much more complete player next season. If Coach Dambrot believes that his veteran frontcourt players aren't getting the job done, I have no doubt that he would insert Kwan into the rotation without hesitation. Pat Forsythe is capable of performing at a much higher level than he showed tonight, and he's going to have to do so to maintain his starting center position over Big Dog.

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Am amazed that no one singled out DeJi Ibitayo's play as having an impact on the decision making process.

Deji had a surreal, almost Jimmy Conyers deja vu affect on the game.

If Deji can continue that level of play the Zips can safely red shirt any or all of the three Freshmen.

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Am amazed that no one singled out DeJi Ibitayo's play as having an impact on the decision making process.

Deji had a surreal, almost Jimmy Conyers deja vu affect on the game.

If Deji can continue that level of play the Zips can safely red shirt any or all of the three Freshmen.

Honestly, it was the kind of game Deji should excel in. Bluffton didn't do any of the things that Deji struggles against. They let him have a few wide open 3s. They rarely looked to initiate offense off the dribble. They never got out and tried to run against us. Not to mention Dambrot wasn't asking him to play PG, so he wasn't being asked to bring the ball up-court against pressure (save for a few times when he was the outlet man for Evans or Diggs bringing the ball up the court).

I'll believe Deji is in for a Conyers like breakout season when I see it against competition that is actually putting some pressure on him. The guy has proven time and time again that he can't handle having someone up in his shirt or having to play close tight defense. Maybe the new hand-check rules this year will help him out and he'll surprise me. Until then, I'm not buying any of the Deji hype. As much as I don't want to see Jackson and Gladden rushed into service, Deji is not a reason to redshirt either of them.

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@GoZips, I said in the other thread that I thought Deji looked good, but that was comparing a veteran D1 player with great athleticism to D3 athletes. I said if Deji can play effectively and under control like that against tougher opponents, he could provide some important quality backup minutes. Bigger tests are coming up for Deji. If he can deliver, it reduces playing time available for the freshmen.

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People complaining about the play of Pat or Big Dog keep in mind that Bluffton doubled down in the post nearly every time

either Pat of the Dog touched the ball. The height advantage had to be offset by double coverage. Bluffton executed their

defense fairly well against the "bigs". Kicking the ball out often resulted in dribble drives or open three ball shots. Pat and

and Big Dog did what was expected of them. They filled up the middle and cut off penetration. Its not always how many

points a player scores. What points the opponent can not score is also important.

On a negative slant, both post players committed too many fouls.

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I remember thinking early in the game that Big Dog is not going to be getting anywhere near as many blocks as Pat this season because his feet barely leave the floor. Looking at the box score, Pat had 0 blocks and Big Dog had 4. I'm starting to think that Big Dog is one of the smartest players on the court. He understands his weaknesses, such as not having much elevation, and compensates with good positioning, anticipation and other fundamentals. It's worth keeping a really close eye on Big Dog every minute he's in the game to see exactly how he accomplishes the unexpected.

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I remember thinking early in the game that Big Dog is not going to be getting anywhere near as many blocks as Pat this season because his feet barely leave the floor. Looking at the box score, Pat had 0 blocks and Big Dog had 4. I'm starting to think that Big Dog is one of the smartest players on the court. He understands his weaknesses, such as not having much elevation, and compensates with good positioning, anticipation and other fundamentals. It's worth keeping a really close eye on Big Dog every minute he's in the game to see exactly how he accomplishes the unexpected.

I will be watching Cheatham. He will be starting soon.

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One amazing thing about Cheatham is that he just turned 18 a month or two ago. He's still very young. Because of that, and in spite of how good he seems to be already (I have to watch myself; we were playing Bluffton after all) I'm thinking KD will redshirt him if at all possible. Kwan will probably come back next year at 6'10" & definitely be stronger and more developed as a player if we just give him a year to watch, eat, lift & practice.

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@ZipsBurgh, here's what the NCAA says:

14.2.3.1.3 Preseason Exhibitions/Preseason Practice Scrimmages During Initial Year. During a student-athlete’s initial year of enrollment at the certifying institution, he or she may compete in preseason exhibition contests and preseason practice scrimmages (as permitted in the particular sport per Bylaw 17) without counting such competition as a season of competition. (Revised: 5/9/06)

The key word is "preseason." Once the formal NCAA basketball season begins, a freshman player can't play a single minute in any game, including exhibition games, without losing the ability to redshirt that season. The only way we see any of the Zips freshmen play again this season is if they give up their eligibility to redshirt.

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One amazing thing about Cheatham is that he just turned 18 a month or two ago. He's still very young. Because of that, and in spite of how good he seems to be already (I have to watch myself; we were playing Bluffton after all) I'm thinking KD will redshirt him if at all possible. Kwan will probably come back next year at 6'10" & definitely be stronger and more developed as a player if we just give him a year to watch, eat, lift & practice.

I admit that I am very biased - I want to win!

We have two "bigs", both are slow. In the one game that I saw "big dog" he did not leave his feet and honestly did not look all that athletic to me.

Cheatham is about the same height and looked to me like he has moves like a guard. Red shirt BD and let him get into better shape. A big who can not run the Court is not all that much use.

A big who has moves and an outside shot is a big deal. It was only 20 minutes, but it appears to me that he can PLAY.

With Tree and Harney in there with him, and Q, this is one heck of a BIG and ATHLETIC team.

When you do the anagram of BIG and ATHLETIC you get WINNER.

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I admit that I am very biased - I want to win!

We have two "bigs", both are slow. In the one game that I saw "big dog" he did not leave his feet and honestly did not look all that athletic to me.

Cheatham is about the same height and looked to me like he has moves like a guard. Red shirt BD and let him get into better shape. A big who can not run the Court is not all that much use.

A big who has moves and an outside shot is a big deal. It was only 20 minutes, but it appears to me that he can PLAY.

With Tree and Harney in there with him, and Q, this is one heck of a BIG and ATHLETIC team.

When you do the anagram of BIG and ATHLETIC you get WINNER.

I have no idea how the coaches feel, but from my observations, I'd keep Cheatham and redshirt Big Dog also. I think Cheatham can help us more right now.

However, there's always a little bit of risk in taking a player who is overweight and slow, and making him sit for a year. Gives him a lot more chances to be lazy, and you sometimes end up with an even bigger problem the following year.

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