Game 5: Akron @ UMass – 3:30 pm

[Balsy]

11 minutes ago, dre22era said:

With the right staff in place the culture can change. Writing it off saying we will never compete and nothing will ever change is asinine 

Hell im scared to ask how you feel about HBCU football programs 

 

Simply saying naked platitudes like "build it and they will come"  or "the right staff" and not understanding/accepting your true circumstance, nothing will ever change.  Going 0-12 is not change.  Blindly casting dice and hope that you eventually strike a seven isn't a way to change something.

Bowden's Staff when he first got here was definitely far above what a 2-22 team with one bowl appearance in 10 years could ever hope for.  And things improved.  From culture to results on the field.  It just seems some people have delusions of grandeur.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Balsy

[dre22era]

2 minutes ago, Balsy said:

 

Simply saying naked platitudes like build it "and they will come" and not understanding/accepting your true circumstance, nothing will ever change.  Going 0-12 is not change.  Blindly casting dice and hope that you eventually strike a seven isn't a way to change something.

In my eyes: Hire the right coach = We Win and when we win = People will come

People support a "Winning Program"
People Donate to a "Winning Program"

Its that simple 

 

Do I like this coach? Hell no 
I was NEVER on board with him being hired 
With a new staff in place did I expect a drop off this season? Hell yes but not at this magnitude which is beyond concerning.  

 

 

[ZipsVoice]

2 hours ago, Balsy said:

Attracting local talent is not the problem: its attracting GOOD local talent.  

Amen!

 

2 hours ago, Balsy said:

Akron is IMHO, a third tier of where local talent would go:

Tier 1: Ohio States, Big-Tens, Alabamas of the World.
Tier 2: Cincinnatis, West Virginias (Bigger Schools away from here) the OUs of the world.
Tier 3: The Akrons, Kents, BGSUs of the world.

Again,  Amen....The goal should be to nose UofA into the tier 2 group.....

 

2 hours ago, Balsy said:

The Best Shot Akron has is to get what decent recruits it has, from where-ever it can

3 for 3 Balsy...."local" should be the tie-breaker in decision vs. equal talent from outside area.....

[Zippyroo]

On 10/6/2019 at 9:15 AM, kreed5120 said:

I'm in agreement with you that ~35 kids is a decent number to have. I have no problem losing out on 4* & 5* recruits to OSU, UM, etc. It's the fact other MAC schools are out recruiting us in our own backyard that I find frustrating. I'm seeing in 2017 the highest rated Ohio recruit we got was #96 in the state. I'm counting 10-11 NEO guys who committed to other MAC schools and have a higher grade than Akron's best recruit. I get we're not going to get everyone, but we have to do better than that.

 

 https://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeRecruitRankings/?InstitutionGroup=highschool&State=OH

 

FIrst off, don't get too caught up in the ratings since the ability of a player is all in the eyes of the beholder.  Heck, there are a lot of kids that do not even get rated for one reason or another.  You are correct that we will never out recruit a Big 10 school if a really good player is hell bent on going there for whatever reason.  However, there are a lot of good players right here in our backyard that would prefer to play locally while obtaining a education.  If a real effort is put forth, I feel that we should have at least 40-50 scholarship kids on the roster from NE Ohio.  That would take roughly 10-15 NE Ohio offers per year which in my mind should be easily obtainable given the talent pool in this area.  Not only do local players help fill the stadium with family and friends but local players are also more vested in the program in my mind.  A glance at the transfer portal should help drive home that point...

 

[dre22era]

Some of those big 10 schools weren't always big 10 schools. 

They started from scratch and built themselves into one. 

If we keep thinking low and boxing ourselves into a "tier" = thats all we will ever be. 

[kreed5120]

34 minutes ago, Zippyroo said:

 

FIrst off, don't get too caught up in the ratings since the ability of a player is all in the eyes of the beholder.  Heck, there are a lot of kids that do not even get rated for one reason or another.  You are correct that we will never out recruit a Big 10 school if a really good player is hell bent on going there for whatever reason.  However, there are a lot of good players right here in our backyard that would prefer to play locally while obtaining a education.  If a real effort is put forth, I feel that we should have at least 40-50 scholarship kids on the roster from NE Ohio.  That would take roughly 10-15 NE Ohio offers per year which in my mind should be easily obtainable given the talent pool in this area.  Not only do local players help fill the stadium with family and friends but local players are also more vested in the program in my mind.  A glance at the transfer portal should help drive home that point...

 

I think you missed out on my main point which is that we need to do a better job of retaining the talent we have in NEO so they don't end up on other MAC squads. I don't care about stars either. It was just much easier to use that as representation than for me to look through 11 MAC rosters and pick out all the guys we've missed out on to other schools. Toledo looks to be the best team in the MAC this year and I'm counting 9 NEO players on their 2 deep depth chart. I'm counting another 3 from Pittsburgh which is another area we should be targeting. We'd be a better team today had we convinced a few of these guys to stay home.

 

https://utrockets.com/documents/2019/8/25/Toledo_Depth_Chart_2019_Preseason.pdf

[ZipsVoice]

1 hour ago, Zippyroo said:

Not only do local players help fill the stadium with family and friends but local players are also more vested in the program in my mind

The facts don't back you up here Zippyroo, at least not at good ol' Infocision, not at the Rubber Bowl.  We've brought in a lot of local players, and lots of locl "name players" from "name high schools", and it translated to not even an uptick of attendance numbers.  

 

1 hour ago, Zippyroo said:

but local players are also more vested in the program in my mind.  A glance at the transfer portal should help drive home that point

Id you're referring to the transfer portal for the Zips, only 2 of the 6 in portal are local kids, and why would they be committed to stay if they're not playing....Maybe "in your mind" it makes sense, but in practical life it doesn't

[Balsy]

7 hours ago, dre22era said:

In my eyes: Hire the right coach = We Win and when we win = People will come

People support a "Winning Program"
People Donate to a "Winning Program"

Its that simple 

 

It's objectively not True with Akron.  Basketball had the longest winning streak of like 25-games in 2013 and got an NCAA Bid.  They had 3 NCAA bids in the Dambrot era.  Was there a substantial increase in Attendance/Support/Donations?  No.  An increase?  Sure.  Substantial increase?  No.

Bowden got the first 8-win season in school history, and won the first Bowl Game in school history.  Was there a huge increase in people attending games?  No.  Was there a huge increase in donors to the now "winning program"?  No.  It's just an objective fact what you say here simply isn't true.

There is a much deeper, far more long standing, cultural issue with the wider University of Akron Alumni/student/NE Ohio base that's affecting those things.

[dre22era]

1 hour ago, Balsy said:

 

It's objectively not True with Akron.  Basketball had the longest winning streak of like 25-games in 2013 and got an NCAA Bid.  They had 3 NCAA bids in the Dambrot era.  Was there a substantial increase in Attendance/Support/Donations?  No.  An increase?  Sure.  Substantial increase?  No.

Bowden got the first 8-win season in school history, and won the first Bowl Game in school history.  Was there a huge increase in people attending games?  No.  Was there a huge increase in donors to the now "winning program"?  No.  It's just an objective fact what you say here simply isn't true.

There is a much deeper, far more long standing, cultural issue with the wider University of Akron Alumni/student/NE Ohio base that's affecting those things.

Sorry but thats not accurate 

There was in increase in donations for both sports. I know that for a fact 

Jim Tressel's presence alone help contribute to that too. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by dre22era

[Balsy]

On 10/7/2019 at 8:31 PM, dre22era said:

Sorry but thats not accurate 

There was in increase in donations for both sports. I know that for a fact 

Jim Tressel's presence alone help contribute to that too. 

 I'll state this flatly again, just so I'm not misunderstood: I don't contend that there was an increase in donations, I'm saying it's not substantial enough to really matter as an argument.  During the relative success of the Bowden Era and Dambrot Eras the University of Akron went through it's toughest times financially; and athletics has been the number one hole.  Obviously there was not enough of an increase to even remotely even get close to making either program solvent; because anyone who remotely follows the financials released by the University would know that. 

I'd wager any increase had far more to do with the people involved and their charisma: Tressel (a name) and Bowden (a name) and Dambrot (became a Name to alumi), than the Zips being a "winning program".  But the increase frankly in the scheme of things, is irrelevant.  Jettisoning said names for unknowns (Tressel for Scarborough...Bowden for Arth...and Dambrot for Groce) certainly doesn't help.  
 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Balsy

[akronzips71]

I was never on board with Bowden being fired.

Yes, he had a bad end of season.

To replace a coach with a national championship on his resume with an unknown is just dumb.

That is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

[Zipmeister]

2 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

I was never on board with Bowden being fired.

Yes, he had a bad end of season.

To replace a coach with a national championship on his resume with an unknown is just dumb.

That is my opinion and I am sticking with it.

 

I think that's where you and Terry differ. 

He must have known that keeping an inept OC on staff would eventually get him canned.

Edited October 8, 2019 by Zipmeister
.

[ZipsVoice]

2 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

To replace a coach with a national championship on his resume

From 1993 - 26 years ago.  

Not many 16-17 year old recruits even know about that....or give a rat's pah-toot.

Edited October 8, 2019 by ZipsVoice

[94zipgrad]

5 minutes ago, ZipsVoice said:

From 1993 - 26 years ago.  

Not many 16-17 year old recruits even know about that....or give a rat's pah-toot.

He never won a National title, he led the team he inherited to an 11-0 season that was under a bowl ban & could not participate in National Championship game.  During his time there Auburn had a downward projection from that point on to the point he was forced out mid season 

[ZipsVoice]

2 minutes ago, 94zipgrad said:

He never won a National title, he led the team he inherited to an 11-0 season that was under a bowl ban & could not participate in National Championship game.  During his time there Auburn had a downward projection from that point on to the point he was forced out mid season 

Nice catch 94...reinforced my point even more.....

[akronzips71]

Well there you go. 0-12 is better than 11-0 if you are Akron.

[Balsy]

16 hours ago, ZipsVoice said:

From 1993 - 26 years ago.  

Not many 16-17 year old recruits even know about that....or give a rat's pah-toot.

 

And yet...those same 16-17 year old recruits somehow give a crap about Jason Taylor being an NFL Hall-of-Famer who played at Akron?  

 

It's really not that hard to understand.  Bowden THE NAME carries a hell of a lot more weight than Arth, Ianello, Faust, Brookhart could ever hope to carry...combined.  That's just a plain, straight-up fact.  The 16-17 year olds may not know the Bowden Name, and what that means...but their coaches, their administrators, even their parents would.  It's not 1967, there is this thing called the internet.  And as someone who teaches 16-17 year olds...with $600 computers in their pockets...its pretty easy to google.  When you google Bowden, Auburn and National Championship would appear.  When you google Arth you'd get...9-13 at EastJesus Tennessee University?  If you're a 16-17 year old actively being recruited in football; you'll probably take the half a second to google the school that expresses interest in you.  

Edited October 9, 2019 by Balsy

[UAZipster0305]

13 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

Well there you go. 0-12 is better than 11-0 if you are Akron.

It's appalling to me that so many here have risked epic failure on an entirely new level (and that's saying a lot from a program that was recently 3-33 over a 3 year span) by firing a coach who recently had the most successful season of any coach in UA history (on 2 of 3 relevant measures: 1) most wins in a season, 2) bowl victory in a very entertaining game against a respectable program, but 3) not a MACC, but we did make the MACC and lost, finishing second). This is particularly ridiculous given the financial struggles of the University, which made national news for its unprecedented level of academic program cuts. But why stop there? Let's make note of being the worst D-1A program in the country by earning our first winless season in program history.

 

Balsy is right, the approach from most of you here is to just roll the dice hoping to come up with a coach who gets us to that magical and unprecedented plateau of a Top 25 finish. That's delusional. You can't just be satisfied with new levels of success even if that bar is relatively low for UA Football? What's wrong with a few down seasons every once in a while? That's what happens when a great coach like Fleck leaves for greener pastures anyhow. What's wrong with continuity? Continuity matters. See Steelers versus Browns success. We are the Browns of college football. Y'all are enablers! (Not you, akronzips71.)

Edited October 9, 2019 by UAZipster0305

[UAZipster0305]

22 hours ago, Zipmeister said:

 

I think that's where you and Terry differ. 

He must have known that keeping an inept OC on staff would eventually get him canned.

 

This is the only scenario that I could see as justification for Bowden's firing...if the AD told Bowden he could stay if the OC was removed and Bowden refused. Even then, it's irresponsible for a cash strapped university to do so.

 

However, I feel that this was a resume' building ploy by our soon to be replaced AD.

Edited October 9, 2019 by UAZipster0305

[zipsoutsider]

I think what is missing in the Bowden discussion is that he was a better coach-period and that finding a high caliber coach from a skill perspective, not name recognition, willing to cone to Akron is not easy. Firing Bowden shows just how arrogant Larry William's is. I also think some of you are in denial about competing with bigger schools for talent. Yes, some B10 schools did it, but that was a different time before the gap between haves and have nots in college football was not as enormous as it is now. The NCAA is not interested in parity or they would put a cap on the amounts programs could spend.

 

Arth sucks, plain and simple. Losing to UMass is inexcusable. The Zips will go winless.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by zipsoutsider

[akronzips71]

6 hours ago, UAZipster0305 said:

It's appalling to me that so many here have risked epic failure on an entirely new level (and that's saying a lot from a program that was recently 3-33 over a 3 year span) by firing a coach who recently had the most successful season of any coach in UA history (on 2 of 3 relevant measures: 1) most wins in a season, 2) bowl victory in a very entertaining game against a respectable program, but 3) not a MACC, but we did make the MACC and lost, finishing second). This is particularly ridiculous given the financial struggles of the University, which made national news for its unprecedented level of academic program cuts. But why stop there? Let's make note of being the worst D-1A program in the country by earning our first winless season in program history.

 

Balsy is right, the approach from most of you here is to just roll the dice hoping to come up with a coach who gets us to that magical and unprecedented plateau of a Top 25 finish. That's delusional. You can't just be satisfied with new levels of success even if that bar is relatively low for UA Football? What's wrong with a few down seasons every once in a while? That's what happens when a great coach like Fleck leaves for greener pastures anyhow. What's wrong with continuity? Continuity matters. See Steelers versus Browns success. We are the Browns of college football. Y'all are enablers! (Not you, akronzips71.)

 

You are gonna get me banned from here LOL

[dre22era]

On 10/9/2019 at 11:18 AM, zipsoutsider said:

Yes, some B10 schools did it, but that was a different time before the gap between haves and have nots in college football was not as enormous as it is now.

 

 

I beg to differ. I believe the gap is closing and you see it in spurts in regards to parity especially when Power 5 schools are willing to play on the road. I believe TV contracts have changed the game in regards to Power 5 Conferences establishing their own TV Networks which as a result opens up space for mid majors to get prime spots on major networks Power 5 schools would usually get on ESPN, FOX and CBS Sports networks. People fall for the trap of defining and characterizing collegiate sports based on the success of less than 30 schools who for example actually turn a profit off athletics. 

More exposure helps bridge the gap when it comes to recruiting and fan base. Bowden was a name that gave us exposure. 

Right now the only exposure we get is being the butt of jokes weekly on ESPN in regards to being on bottom list of worst teams in the country. 

Hell we was damn near trending 2 weeks ago against Umass because Akron didn't cover. People actually lose their homes betting on us. 

And now again this weekend people are betting heavy on us. 

 

@Stuckey2 @ActionNetworkHQ Who wants in on this “Devil’s 3-way?

“Akron is the new UMass is the new UConn.”#EinhornIsFinkel pic.twitter.com/5BpJ6BP85H

— Jesse Hamilton (@JimSuprfly04) October 9, 2019

I bet on Akron/UMass two weeks ago, so there's clearly no bar low enough....... https://t.co/tNF7TYslO8

— Jeff (@jjfsls2) October 8, 2019

This is amazing. To catch people up to speed, he gave out a betting "hot tip" regarding Akron's opponent having several starters suspended the night before the game and told bettors to hammer Akron bet. They lost the game. https://t.co/6vrF7XAm7g

— Nate Dawg (@Your_Mate_Nate) October 2, 2019

[ZipsVoice]

So, back on October 6th I asked the question "I don't know the answer to this, and I'm too lazy to check it out, but how many of the 130 NCAA D1 schools have kids on their current roster hailing from say, I-70 as the southern border and Sandusky as the western border, as an indication of how the rest of the nation views NEOhio high school football talent?" 

It's a rainy day and I was bored so I did a little research.  Instead of looking at the whole 130 D1 schools (I'm not that bored!) I looked at the current rosters of all the MAC Schools, all the Big 10 schools, and threw in Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Marshall and West Virginia too.  I went from the PA border to Elyria, and from Lake Erie to Canfield.  Now this is just based on being on the roster, not if they are starting, getting any PT, riding the bench, practice squad fodder, whatever.  I do have to say, we sure have a helluva lot of long snappers and punters/kickers on this  list from NEO!  Here's what we have - The MAC has 110 players from the area selected.  Akron leads by far with 37, and that's after taking Burkhart off the list.  Here's the list:

Akron - 37     Kent State - 21     Toledo - 17     Ohio - 14     Bowling Green -7     Miami - 6     Buffalo - 5     EMU - 3     Ball State - 2      NIU, CMU, WMU have none on their roster

 

The Big 10 (or 14) have a total of 50 players from the area selected.  Here's how they stack up:

Ohio State - 17     Michigan State - 11     Michigan - 7     Northwestern - 5     Penn State, Purdue and Minnesota each have 2     Rutgers, Indiana, Nebraska, and Wisconsin each have 1.  Maryland, Illinois and Iowa do not have any.

 

The "other" schools have 24 players from the area.  I was very surprised to see that Cincinnati leads with 16!  Notre Dame has 4, Pitt has 3 and WVU has 1.  Marshall has none.

 

So the idea of Akron "not recruiting locally" seems to be debunked.  Both Terry and Tom have done it.  

 

Where did the recruits come from?  You'll not be shocked to see that St. Ignasius leads with 13 players, followed by Hoban and St. Ed's with 10 each.  Massillon Washington and Mentor each have 9, and I remember Arth addressing the Mentor market as one to go after when he got here.  Cleveland Heights, Hudson and St. Vincent-St. Mary each had 6 players on these rosters, followed by Avon, Glenville, Canton McKinley, Padua, Solon and Stow with 4 each.  Benedictine, Brush, Copley, Lorain and Strongsville each added 3 to the list.  Aurora, Bedford, Brecksville,  Coventry, Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy, Euclid, Firestone, Warren Harding, Jackson, LaBrae, Medina, Midpark, Nordoonia, North Royalton, Notre Dame-Cathedral Latin, Perry, Springfield, Ursuline, and Westlake each had a pair, and 40 other schools had 1 player each.

 

So, this is what currently populates the rosters of 14 schools from the Big 10 and 12 from the MAC, plus 5 "Bigs" in our area.  I guess the three surprises for me were 1) how much we have tried to mine this area and how little we have to show for it during both coaching staffs; 2) the numbers at Michigan State; and 3) the numbers at Cincinnati!  I know I might have missed a few players playing farther away, and I'm sure there's enough ammo here to post a lot of "Yeah, but's", so have at it.

 

[kreed5120]

1 hour ago, ZipsVoice said:

So, back on October 6th I asked the question "I don't know the answer to this, and I'm too lazy to check it out, but how many of the 130 NCAA D1 schools have kids on their current roster hailing from say, I-70 as the southern border and Sandusky as the western border, as an indication of how the rest of the nation views NEOhio high school football talent?" 

It's a rainy day and I was bored so I did a little research.  Instead of looking at the whole 130 D1 schools (I'm not that bored!) I looked at the current rosters of all the MAC Schools, all the Big 10 schools, and threw in Notre Dame, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Marshall and West Virginia too.  I went from the PA border to Elyria, and from Lake Erie to Canfield.  Now this is just based on being on the roster, not if they are starting, getting any PT, riding the bench, practice squad fodder, whatever.  I do have to say, we sure have a helluva lot of long snappers and punters/kickers on this  list from NEO!  Here's what we have - The MAC has 110 players from the area selected.  Akron leads by far with 37, and that's after taking Burkhart off the list.  Here's the list:

Akron - 37     Kent State - 21     Toledo - 17     Ohio - 14     Bowling Green -7     Miami - 6     Buffalo - 5     EMU - 3     Ball State - 2      NIU, CMU, WMU have none on their roster

 

The Big 10 (or 14) have a total of 50 players from the area selected.  Here's how they stack up:

Ohio State - 17     Michigan State - 11     Michigan - 7     Northwestern - 5     Penn State, Purdue and Minnesota each have 2     Rutgers, Indiana, Nebraska, and Wisconsin each have 1.  Maryland, Illinois and Iowa do not have any.

 

The "other" schools have 24 players from the area.  I was very surprised to see that Cincinnati leads with 16!  Notre Dame has 4, Pitt has 3 and WVU has 1.  Marshall has none.

 

So the idea of Akron "not recruiting locally" seems to be debunked.  Both Terry and Tom have done it.  

 

Where did the recruits come from?  You'll not be shocked to see that St. Ignasius leads with 13 players, followed by Hoban and St. Ed's with 10 each.  Massillon Washington and Mentor each have 9, and I remember Arth addressing the Mentor market as one to go after when he got here.  Cleveland Heights, Hudson and St. Vincent-St. Mary each had 6 players on these rosters, followed by Avon, Glenville, Canton McKinley, Padua, Solon and Stow with 4 each.  Benedictine, Brush, Copley, Lorain and Strongsville each added 3 to the list.  Aurora, Bedford, Brecksville,  Coventry, Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy, Euclid, Firestone, Warren Harding, Jackson, LaBrae, Medina, Midpark, Nordoonia, North Royalton, Notre Dame-Cathedral Latin, Perry, Springfield, Ursuline, and Westlake each had a pair, and 40 other schools had 1 player each.

 

So, this is what currently populates the rosters of 14 schools from the Big 10 and 12 from the MAC, plus 5 "Bigs" in our area.  I guess the three surprises for me were 1) how much we have tried to mine this area and how little we have to show for it during both coaching staffs; 2) the numbers at Michigan State; and 3) the numbers at Cincinnati!  I know I might have missed a few players playing farther away, and I'm sure there's enough ammo here to post a lot of "Yeah, but's", so have at it.

 

 

That must have taken quite a bit of time to produce. I solute your efforts. Akron certainly has been recruiting the northeast Ohio region, particularly Akron city, heavily over the past few years. The issue isn't quantity. It's a matter of getting quality. My comment last week about Toledo being the best team in the MAC last week didn't age well after losing to BGSU this past weekend, but their roster is loaded with NEO players who would most likely start for us. Mitchell Guadagni from Hudson being a prime example. It seems a lot of the guys we end up getting are players who are FCS level talent.

 

Quote

I think you missed out on my main point which is that we need to do a better job of retaining the talent we have in NEO so they don't end up on other MAC squads. I don't care about stars either. It was just much easier to use that as representation than for me to look through 11 MAC rosters and pick out all the guys we've missed out on to other schools. Toledo looks to be the best team in the MAC this year and I'm counting 9 NEO players on their 2 deep depth chart. I'm counting another 3 from Pittsburgh which is another area we should be targeting. We'd be a better team today had we convinced a few of these guys to stay home. https://utrockets.com/documents/2019/8/25/Toledo_Depth_Chart_2019_Preseason.pdf

 

[94zipgrad]

29 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

That must have taken quite a bit of time to produce. I solute your efforts. Akron certainly has been recruiting the northeast Ohio region, particularly Akron city, heavily over the past few years. The issue isn't quantity. It's a matter of getting quality. My comment last week about Toledo being the best team in the MAC last week didn't age well after losing to BGSU this past weekend, but their roster is loaded with NEO players who would most likely start for us. Mitchell Guadagni from Hudson being a prime example. It seems a lot of the guys we end up getting are players who are FCS level talent.

 

 

No Akron East kids left, that tree bared no fruit