InTheZone Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 http://www.mansfieldnewsjournal.com/apps/p.../704260343/1006Column: Why, oh Frye, would Browns select a QB?By Jon Spencer News Journal If I were to make a federal case for why the Browns should stick with Charlie Frye as their quarterback and turn their draft attention elsewhere, the first person I would call to the stand is his college coach, Lee Owens.Actually, Owens is the only person I would summon for the defense.I can't call on any of Frye's running backs in Cleveland for support. They're all impostors.I can't call on the Browns' offensive linemen. Even if I could grant them immunity for their testimony, I'd have to find them first. Anybody seen one in, oh, the last few years, other than LeCharles Bentley on the ground writhing in pain? I can't even call on Braylon Edwards, one of Frye's favorite targets. He's got his own issues. Too flighty, too unreliable, unstable even. The jurors would quickly dismiss him as a credible witness.So I call upon Owens, Frye's coach at Akron for three years, to give Charlie's side of the story -- to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me Jim Brown."He's already played for three offensive coordinators, which makes continuity difficult," said Owens, a Mansfield native. "Charlie studies so hard and has a great knack for the game, but you'd like to have some continuity. He was at his best after two or three years in our system (at Akron), making calls and checks at the line of scrimmage."In 2002, Frye threw for 2,824 yards and completed 65.8 percent of his passes for the Zips. In 2003, the former Willard Crimson flushes star threw for 3,549 yards and completed 64.8. In 2004, when J.D. Brookhart replaced Owens and overhauled the offense, Frye still threw for 2,623 yards and completed 63.6 percent.In 20 NFL games, he's thrown for 3,456 yards and completed 62.8 percent. His record as a starter is 6-12. Yes, he's racked up turnovers at an alarming pace by trying to do too much. Can you blame him? It's not like he's had time to scan the field for options. He's been sacked more than the weekly specials at Kroger.Where's the help? Last year, the Browns were the second worst team running the ball and gave up the third most sacks. Peyton Manning would look like Eli Manning, given the same props.So the solution is to let Frye absorb yet more punishment, this time from his bosses and the court of public opinion, sack the two-year investment GM Phil Savage has made in the young quarterback and bring another youngster like LSU's JeMarcus Russell or Notre Dame's Brady Quinn into the mess, er ... mix?Seriously?Owens, in his fourth year as head coach at Ashland University, is too busy trying to get his own house in order this spring to tell the Browns their business. But he knows what he wouldn't do with Saturday's first pick in the NFL draft -- pick a quarterback."Forget drafting anything but offensive linemen for the first two or three rounds, or they'll never get any better," he said. "To think any rookie quarterback is going to come in and handle a new system -especially since Charlie has handled two or three already -- better be big and strong and durable like Charlie."Frye's detractors bemoan his lack of arm strength, even though some pretty fair Cleveland quarterbacks in my lifetime -- Brian Sipe, Bernie Kosar and Bill Nelsen -- seemed to do OK without bazookas attached to their right shoulders. The critics claim Frye locks on to one receiver, but what were his options -- Dennis Northcutt? Travis Wilson? -- when the braintrust inexplicably had Kellen Winslow II on the sidelines on third down and took half the season to remember free agent signee Joe Jurevicius?At least no one disputes Frye's toughness. He hadn't completely healed from a bruised right wrist when he started against Houston in last year's finale."How many guys, when the season is already decided, would fight back to get on the field like he did?" Owens said. "He could barely grip the football. That speaks volumes about him, that he would jeopardize his career in a game of no significance."He plays every game like it's the Super Bowl. I can't tell you how many times I had to take his helmet away from him in games that were already decided. I've seen him play beat up, with concussions. That's what inspires guys around him to play hard. In the three years he started for me, he was the toughest guy on the team."The only Charlie doing much talking these days is Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis. He has thrown his considerable weight behind Quinn in a predraft campaign, lobbying for the Browns to take his protégé with the third pick.Weis' filibusters come off as fili-bluster. He says a Browns-Quinn marriage "makes too much sense" and calls it "a match made in heaven" and a "slam dunk."Knowing first-hand from covering the 2006 Fiesta Bowl that Weis can be mighty persuasive when he starts flushing his four Super Bowl rings, I decided the other Charlie was deserving of equal time.That's why I called Owens to the stand. He doesn't have to convince any prosecutors, just Frye's persecutors."A couple of weeks ago, I went to Charlie's house to watch some video," Owens said. "I wasn't giving him advice; it turned into a lesson from him on how to read coverages and exploit blitzes."I can't wait until he's in a position where there's some continuity and a little bit of a running game and linemen to protect him on his drops."Until then, Frye is quietly going about his off-season work while draft hyperbole swirls around him. Don't hold your breath waiting for him to testify on his own behalf."Charlie is not afraid of competition," Owens said. "He said to me, 'Coach, I'm going to prepare as if I'm the quarterback. He's not naive; he realizes things change in the NFL every day. But he doesn't let it bother him."He's ready to compete ... he just hopes it's here."jspencer@nncogannett.com 419-521-7239 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgm405 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 The only things I hear in support of Frye are:1) He's tough and can take a beating2) Everyone else on the team sucks so you can't blame him95% of the players in the NFL are like Charlie...tough as nails. So I don't see why people attach that to his name like he's the only one doing it. And maybe the running game would open up a little better if Charlie was actually some kind of threat to throw downfield? Maybe the protection wouldn't suffer as much if Frye would stay in the pocket instead of seemingly running right into defenders? I'll post it again:Charlie's NFL QB ranks in 2006:QB Rating - 26thPassing TD's - 27thInterceptions - 27thSacks - 27thPassing Yards - 23rdCompletion % - 5thYards Per Attempt - 26thAnd as GP1 pointed out in another thread, the high completion % is from Charlie's dink and dunk passing. Charlie's had time to show us something, and he hasn't shown us much. He got outplayed by a career backup last season. I wish the guy the best of luck because he is a UA grad and gave us some great memories but as a Browns fan, I care more about putting the team out there that gives Cleveland the best chance to win. And maybe not right away, but before long Brady Quinn will be the QB that gives Cleveland the best chance to win. I never even liked the guy and I hate ND...but if he's the guy at QB (and he is) that will help turn this franchise around, I'm behind him 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 SMG. I don't think any of us would argue that Charlie's numbers were not stellar last year.If you saw the facts posted on a previous thread about Charlie, you would see that the argument is that Charlie's numbers are comparable, or BETTER than, many of the other star QB's in the league during their first year as a starter. Which happens to be true.Enough said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GP1 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 If you saw the facts posted on a previous thread about Charlie, you would see that the argument is that Charlie's numbers are comparable, or BETTER than, many of the other star QB's in the league during their first year as a starter. Which happens to be true. Which means what?I know the comparison is always to Manning, which is a complete joke. Pluto did he same thing a few days ago. It's laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 What does it mean???Does it not clearly show that you cannot, and should not, judge the future success of an NFL Quarterback based on what he does in his first year as a starter?And it's not just a comparison to Manning. But since you brought it up, are you trying to say that Indianapolis should have drafted another quarterback, and put Manning on the bench after his first dozen or so starts?I'm perplexed as to why a couple of you seem to enjoy the fact that our Browns keep getting rebuilt over, and over, and over and over again. And it has nothing to do with my thoughts about Frye or Quinn. I'm just frankly getting tired of always starting over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgm405 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 SMG. I don't think any of us would argue that Charlie's numbers were not stellar last year.If you saw the facts posted on a previous thread about Charlie, you would see that the argument is that Charlie's numbers are comparable, or BETTER than, many of the other star QB's in the league during their first year as a starter. Which happens to be true.Enough said. He has started for 1 1/2 years. In my opinion, he hasn't really gotten all that much better during that time. Ask yourself this - if he wasn't an Akron alum, would you defend him so strongly? I'm guessing no...but who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted May 1, 2007 Report Share Posted May 1, 2007 What does it mean???Does it not clearly show that you cannot, and should not, judge the future success of an NFL Quarterback based on what he does in his first year as a starter?And it's not just a comparison to Manning. But since you brought it up, are you trying to say that Indianapolis should have drafted another quarterback, and put Manning on the bench after his first dozen or so starts?I'm perplexed as to why a couple of you seem to enjoy the fact that our Browns keep getting rebuilt over, and over, and over and over again. And it has nothing to do with my thoughts about Frye or Quinn. I'm just frankly getting tired of always starting over again. I'm with you Skip-Zip. Building the Browns over and over again will never work. But, many Browns fans want a winning team so badly that they will buy anything that Lerner and company sell them in the Spring, only to be disappointed and b*tching in the Fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Zip Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Charlie's NFL QB ranks in 2006:QB Rating - 26thPassing TD's - 27thInterceptions - 27thSacks - 27thPassing Yards - 23rdCompletion % - 5thYards Per Attempt - 26thYPA Rank & Team Rushing YPG20 S. McNair QB, BAL 25th 104.621 J. Delhomme QB, CAR 24th 103.7 22 M. Vick QB, ATL 1st 183.7 (Vick rushed for over 1,000 yds)23 B. Favre QB, GNB 23rd 103.924 J. Plummer QB, DEN 8th 134.525 B. Johnson QB, MIN 16th 113.826 David Carr QB, HOU 21st 105.3 C. Frye QB, CLE 31st 83.4 28 E. Manning QB, NYG 7th 134.829 V. Young QB, TEN 5th 138.430 A. Walter QB, OAK 29th 94.931 J. Harrington QB, MIA 22nd 104.632 B. Gradkowski QB, TAM 28th 95.21 Tony Romo QB, DAL 13th 121.02 D. McNabb QB, PHI 11th 124.03 Drew Brees QB, NOR 19th 110.14 P. Manning QB, IND 18th 110.15 C. Palmer QB, CIN 26th 101.8When I originally looked at this I thought it would prove a poor rushing attack would influence YPA. My reasoning would be that a QB would have no time to throw because a defense would key on the pass. I looked at the bottom feeder YPAs and the top YPA QBs. I guess I didn't prove my original point, but it is interesting. I would have assumed that a higher YPA would mean a high YPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Zip Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I'm still waiting for you SGM and GP1 to respond to the facts I presented in the previous discussion about Charlie.A rookie QB (essentially) on a team that has never had any offense in the time it has been back and you share his numbers as if he took over the super bowl team. The two of you should go away. SGM you might be the most disliked guy on this board. GP1 you've been here forever and have always offered negative comments on the Browns when a conversation comes up so your not credible on this issue either. I actually like to read GP1's takes when they aren't about the NFL and is opportunity as a Steelers fan to bash the Browns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Zip Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 18 games isn't a year and half -- the NFL plays 16 game schedules -- not sure if you are aware SGM, but they changed that awhile ago. You'd be right there if it was still a 12 game schedule though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 Thanks guys. I guess some people have forgotten what they might have learned in a statistics or math class. But I will refrain from launching any personal attacks. Big Zip...I simply don't know what more you can say after you've presented solid facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UA Fan Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 "I can't wait until he's in a position where there's some continuity and a little bit of a running game and linemen to protect him on his drops."Amen to that.You post the QB ratings but I don't see you posting the OL or running game ratings...why is that? When CF has some more talent around him he can settle in, get comfortable & confident and put up good numbers. It's not a difficult concept for most of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BZip_08 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 The reason why they say Charlie is as tough as nails is because the boy has had more concussions than a lot of hockey players! And about scrambling... after getting sacked every other play because your line is slow and can't block to save YOUR life, wouldn't you scramble eventually... Charlie has all the assets necessary, and has more heart for the game than any other football player I've ever met. If the Browns won't give him the opportunity to do what he is passionate about, what he is made to do, maybe someone else should. I would hate to see him leave the Orange and Brown, but if Cleveland is going to stick their collective heads in the sand and never figure out how to run a football team then he is better off elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Z Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 KNR radio past:Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb Couch Holcomb KNR radio future:Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Frye Quinn Cleveland sports talk radio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgm405 Posted May 2, 2007 Report Share Posted May 2, 2007 I'm still waiting for you SGM and GP1 to respond to the facts I presented in the previous discussion about Charlie.A rookie QB (essentially) on a team that has never had any offense in the time it has been back and you share his numbers as if he took over the super bowl team. The two of you should go away. SGM you might be the most disliked guy on this board. GP1 you've been here forever and have always offered negative comments on the Browns when a conversation comes up so your not credible on this issue either. I actually like to read GP1's takes when they aren't about the NFL and is opportunity as a Steelers fan to bash the Browns. Oh my god...I'm not well-liked on an Internet forum? Goodness...what will I ever do with myself!??!?!? And bashing GP for being "negative towards the Browns in the past"? Ummm...if you haven't noticed, there haven't been too many positives in the past buddy! If anything, I think someone who can set aside their personal allegiances to players and teams and look at a debate without bias has more credibility than anyone else. I honestly missed your facts that you presented Big Zip. If you link me to them or re-post them here I'd be glad to respond. I realize Charlie hasn't had much around him to work with. I realize that statistics aren't everything when judging a player. And I know that quarterbacks usually aren't good right away, and that it takes them time to develop. But I just don't see it in Charlie.Let me use Jamarcus Russell as an example. He has a cannon for an arm, has good accuracy on his throws (including deep balls), has great size for a QB, has good pocket presence and is mobile enough to tuck it and run...he is very talented. And he will most likely struggle at first...but with Russell, you know that he already has the elite physical gifts (ala Manning and some of the other QB's you mentioned) that will give him every opportunity to succeed in the NFL. Frye doesn't have anything close to Russell's arm and doesn't match his raw physical gifts. Therefore, you can't be as confident in the chances of Frye becoming an elite player. How many Browns have stepped up to say they feel Charlie is the guy and want him to be the main man? How confident must the Browns front office - who scouted, drafted, and watched Charlie develop - be about Frye if they tried trading for Trent Green, Matt Schaub, and eventually for the rights to Brady Quinn? And why haven't I seen much defense or support of Charlie outside of this forum? All I can think about is this though...I'm I really disliked on this board!??!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Zip in Col Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I personally don't dislike you at all SGM, its fun that you stir the pot a little (o.k. a lot). However, don't you think it is unfair to compare anybody to Russell. The so-called pundits pretty much agree that a player with Russell's physical gifts comes around only once every 7-10 years. Of course he still has to prove himself in the NFL and he will be playing for the Raiders who are on par with the Browns on offense. I believe it is highly questionable that BQ will be any upgrade. Before Weiss went to ND, I remember BQ being fairly average (too lazy to look up stats, just going off memory). If Frye played for coach or coordinator such as Weiss instead of the chaotic coaching mess that he was dealt with do you think his performance would have been different? BQ won't have Weiss with the Browns, nor a very good line to protect him. Will he be able to run for his life as well as Frye? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgm405 Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I personally don't dislike you at all SGM, its fun that you stir the pot a little (o.k. a lot). However, don't you think it is unfair to compare anybody to Russell. The so-called pundits pretty much agree that a player with Russell's physical gifts comes around only once every 7-10 years. Of course he still has to prove himself in the NFL and he will be playing for the Raiders who are on par with the Browns on offense. I believe it is highly questionable that BQ will be any upgrade. Before Weiss went to ND, I remember BQ being fairly average (too lazy to look up stats, just going off memory). If Frye played for coach or coordinator such as Weiss instead of the chaotic coaching mess that he was dealt with do you think his performance would have been different? BQ won't have Weiss with the Browns, nor a very good line to protect him. Will he be able to run for his life as well as Frye? I agree that it's probably unfair to compare Frye to Russell. I just used him as an example to prove my point though. Most QB's struggle early on - but some you have more confidence in because of elite physical tools that you can't teach. Guys like Russell, Manning, etc have theset ools...Frye, IMO, does not. As for the line, I think it will be greatly improved. With Joe Thomas and Eric Steinbach, the left side should be stellar...and there is still the real possibility of Lecharles Bentley being back. It might turn out that the Brownies have - *gasp* - a good offensive line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZachTheZip Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I agree that it's probably unfair to compare Frye to Russell. I just used him as an example to prove my point though. Most QB's struggle early on - but some you have more confidence in because of elite physical tools that you can't teach. Guys like Russell, Manning, etc have these tools...Frye, IMO, does not.I see what you're saying, but at least to me, neither does Brady Quinn. What is it that so many people see in him that make them believe he can single-handedly ressurrect the Browns organisation? (note: this is not directed at you, sgm. I've seen too many idiots say that the only thing the Browns need is a good QB, never mind the O-line, running game, defense, special teams, ect... e.g. Trivassano)I just haven't seen anything during his college career that sets him apart from any other QB in the draft, apart from Weiss talking him up because he's pratically obligated to wax poetic about someone with whom his name is strongly associated. What makes you think Quinn was worth giving up TWO first round picks for? There were plenty of above-average QBs still available in the second round. Maybe Quinn really is better than Frye. Maybe not. The sad thing is we will probably never know. All I know is the Browns are willing to screw up their own future for a possibly marginal improvement in the present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgm405 Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I agree that it's probably unfair to compare Frye to Russell. I just used him as an example to prove my point though. Most QB's struggle early on - but some you have more confidence in because of elite physical tools that you can't teach. Guys like Russell, Manning, etc have these tools...Frye, IMO, does not.I see what you're saying, but at least to me, neither does Brady Quinn. What is it that so many people see in him that make them believe he can single-handedly ressurrect the Browns organisation? (note: this is not directed at you, sgm. I've seen too many idiots say that the only thing the Browns need is a good QB, never mind the O-line, running game, defense, special teams, ect... e.g. Trivassano)I just haven't seen anything during his college career that sets him apart from any other QB in the draft, apart from Weiss talking him up because he's pratically obligated to wax poetic about someone with whom his name is strongly associated. What makes you think Quinn was worth giving up TWO first round picks for? There were plenty of above-average QBs still available in the second round. Maybe Quinn really is better than Frye. Maybe not. The sad thing is we will probably never know. All I know is the Browns are willing to screw up their own future for a possibly marginal improvement in the present. - How do you figure they gave up two first rounders? - Quinn DOES have elite physical tools. He has the size, is very strong, has a strong arm and can throw down field with no problems. He also has some great intangibles to go with this - good mechanically, experience against good teams, ran a pro-style offense, very tough and durable (never missed a game I believe). - We WILL find out who's better. Charlie has had time already and will most likely start the year....and eventually Quinn will get a chance. So we'll find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zippyrifle32 Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 or (in typical browns fashion) quinn shatters his throwing hand the day before the first game, locking frye in for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 That's certainly a valid point for argument that the Browns gave up 2 first round picks for Brady Quinn, because it was very close to that since the 2nd round pick was very very early in the 2nd round. Did we give up too much? I guess we'll find out down the road. But my argument is that I think they've halted the current rebuilding process by putting so much into one player that you won't be able to add to that next year. The Browns still have quite a few areas of need. And without being able to address those needs through a high draft selection until 2 years from now, are they really going to be able to make progress?Again, in my opinion, this is a desperate move by a management team that is desperate to save their jobs. They've put all of their eggs in one basket, and I think that is dangerous when you need so much other help. Especially since we now know that they caved in and gave Dallas more than what they originally wanted to give up. Does everyone remember what happened to the Saints when Ditka gave away several draft picks for Ricky Williams? Not only did Williams eventually not work out, but then they left way too many areas of need unaddressed, and had no high upcoming draft picks to help them out. A similar situation happened between Dallas and Minnesota. The Vikings once traded away several draft picks for Herschell Walker. Does everone remember what Dallas did with those draft picks? They used them to draft the nucleus of their eventual two-time Super Bowl championship team. I know that it's a stretch to say that these two situations are comparable in magnitude, but history is showing us that these kinds of strategies often backfire, and I'm afraid that the Browns have put themselves in the same position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Z Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 I know that it's a stretch to say that these two situations are comparable in magnitude, but history is showing us that these kinds of strategies often backfire, and I'm afraid that the Browns have put themselves in the same position. Savage traded two picks, a round 1 and a round 2 within two years.Ditka gave up eight future picks for the right to draft Heisman winner Ricky WilliamsThe Herschel Walker Trade was the largest player trade in the history of the National Football League.The trade involved 18 players and/or draft picks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Kangaroo Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Ok, stop it with the Hershel Walker re-hash. It's taken me 15 years to get over it, and you bastards have to rip open the scab. You're lucky. If I didn't have to go out and get my Jermaine Reid jersey now, I'd really let you punks have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skip-zip Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 That's a cleaver response Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zips Win! Posted May 3, 2007 Report Share Posted May 3, 2007 Ok, stop it with the Hershel Walker re-hash. It's taken me 15 years to get over it, and you bastards have to rip open the scab.I thought of the HW trade myself..this trade could be the "anti-HW" trade for the Cowboys. Good move PS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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