CSU dominating Can't

[Zip Watcher]

Someone explain to me how exactly "Waters has transformed CSU into a successful program" if the same criteria when applied to KD doesn't result in "KD has transformed UA into a MORE successful program than CSU" ..I don't understand:KD - 2 postseason wins @ UAWaters - 0 postseason wins @ CSUThey're on a similar plane of coaching existence I believe. Waters has more years at DI .. that's all.

[Zip Watcher]

GP1 and CK are right on the money on this one. Waters is indeed the premiere DI hoops coach in NE OH. And this is no discrespect to any of the other coaches.What he did at Can't will probably never be matched.

Sure of that? Really? I'm not. Why do you stand at the railing every game then if you don't believe it's possible? Hemorrhoids?

And now you are also bringing down Huggins in this thread. Good grief....

This is a telling quote. It tells me that you've no faith in KD. All I said was that he was on pace to blow away Huggy's win total for the first 5 years @ UA. Nothing more. Huggins did great things @ UA, no arguments here. But KD has done some things Huggins NEVER was able to do .. twice (save your replies .. I know Huggins won a title .. works both ways). So by pointing out that KD is ahead of Huggins in a few areas .. now I'm dragging Huggins down? Not so, my friend.What did KD ever do to you?

The next time I walk into the JAR and see a MAC championship banner hanging, then we can talk. Until then, there is no argument.

It's a program build. It's a PROCESS .. and we're 1/4 of the way through the 5th season .. with 100 wins and 2 postseason wins behind us. The inertia is up .. not down.My New Year's wish for everyone is a little faith & optimism. Our guys can use the support.Go Zips!

[Zips Win!]

GP1 and CK are right on the money on this one. Waters is indeed the premiere DI hoops coach in NE OH. And this is no discrespect to any of the other coaches.What he did at Can't will probably never be matched.

Sure of that? Really? I'm not. Why do you stand at the railing every game then if you don't believe it's possible? Hemorrhoids?

And now you are also bringing down Huggins in this thread. Good grief....

This is a telling quote. It tells me that you've no faith in KD. All I said was that he was on pace to blow away Huggy's win total for the first 5 years @ UA. Nothing more. Huggins did great things @ UA, no arguments here. But KD has done some things Huggins NEVER was able to do .. twice (save your replies .. I know Huggins won a title .. works both ways). So by pointing out that KD is ahead of Huggins in a few areas .. now I'm dragging Huggins down? Not so, my friend.What did KD ever do to you?

The next time I walk into the JAR and see a MAC championship banner hanging, then we can talk. Until then, there is no argument.

It's a program build. It's a PROCESS .. and we're 1/4 of the way through the 5th season .. with 100 wins and 2 postseason wins behind us. The inertia is up .. not down.My New Year's wish for everyone is a little faith & optimism. Our guys can use the support.Go Zips!

This is really much to do about nothng. I responded to the original post about a comment that Waters was the best coach in NE Ohio and I agreed. Nothing more. It like saying Phil Jackson is a better coach than Pat Riley. Does this mean that Pat Riley isn't a great coach as well? I don't think so.I have said it numerous times on this board that I love KD as a coach. Finally we have a really good coach, a UA guy who wants to be here. Let's keep him.I also stand by my response to this post however.

[skip-zip]

Zipwatcher...I respect your observations. Sometimes I can't quite figure out what other people are trying to say, but the only point I am trying to make is that Watters at Can't and CSU, and Huggins at Akron started with virtually NOTHING. I'm sure you are not trying to drag Huggins down. I know you know our basketball program better than that. But, I think many of us tend to attach a different level of appreciation to these kinds of situations. I sure wish I could tell the same tale of a dramatic rise of a program after the naming of a new coach. But, we all know that KD had top notch players to work with when he took over the program. And I know him, and love him. But, it's just a different feeling you get when you see the guys who raise the level of programs from scratch, are truly in the dumps, and have no talent.

[GoZips88]

(should be an automatic game every year; afraid of a beat-down yourself Waters?).

Be cautious of what you wish for. Waters is the best college coach in NE Ohio and he can recruit better players at CSU because of their laughable academic standards.....and when I say laughable, I mean side splitting laughter or even liquid shooting out of your nose laughter. We may want to duck them while he is there. After all, we are "building" a program here (for how long now? will we beat the completion of the bridge to China?) through beating teams we should easily beat and losing to good teams. I'm not sure how all of that works, but I read on the board we are "building" it. Now that CSU is good, we may not want to break that formula. Keep the cupcakes coming....I guess. For those of you who have season tickets, I'll say it for you...... Let's see some results from all of this "building".....this year.

I just can't figure out why Waters hasn't scheduled Akron in the three years he's been at CSU. If the next game is to be played at Akron (it is), then man up and schedule a game at Akron. Would love to know if there's anything more to it than wanting the next game in Cleveland. I sent Waters an e-mail last year asking why he hasn't scheduled Akron. A reply I got from one of his assistants suggested they didn't feel they were ready for Akron at their current stage of developing the CSU program. Seems like a load of BS to me. What's the real reason you won't come to Akron Waters?I'd GLADLY welcome a game against CSU over an Urbana or St. Francis (NY or PA), regardless of who the coach is or how good they are. If we get beat, we get beat. Give me a Miami-type schedule any day over some of the cupcakes we schedule. More filling and fewer empty calories. Come on Waters, get the burr out of your saddle and start the series up again.

[Quickzips]

I really don't understand what this whole conversation is about. Do you guys really want KD out? Do you really think Waters is coming to Akron? What exactly are we trying to prove here? In all honesty this is one of the more pointless conversations I've seen on these boards recently.

[ZipAlumn]

I really don't understand what this whole conversation is about. Do you guys really want KD out? Do you really think Waters is coming to Akron? What exactly are we trying to prove here? In all honesty this is one of the more pointless conversations I've seen on these boards recently.

I agree ......... Waters is a good coach , so is Charlie Coles, and so are several other coaches all around Ohio, but we have KD and I am happy with him. I want him to stay around and I don't want to go out and hire any of those other guys.

[Zipsrifle]

Thank God the University has an Athletic Director to hire and fire coaches because if it were left up to the fans here, we would have a new coach every other game!!! One week, they would become the highest paid coach in college sports and the next week they would be out because the suck!

[Captain Kangaroo]

I really don't understand what this whole conversation is about. Do you guys really want KD out? Do you really think Waters is coming to Akron? What exactly are we trying to prove here? In all honesty this is one of the more pointless conversations I've seen on these boards recently.

Scanning through the entire thread, I can't find a single post that speaks anything but glowingly about Keith Dambrot. Some local colllege hoops fans are also impressed with the job Gary Waters is doing. Apparently dems fightin' words in Summit County. To me, it's being a local college hoops fan and talking sports. There's absolutely ZERO anti-UA Coach sentiment involved in appreciating the work of another local mid-major coach who's obviously pretty skilled.In a way it reminds me of that old Far Side comic where a guy yells at his dog. Regardless of what the guy really says, the dog only hears one thing.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Thank God the University has an Athletic Director to hire and fire coaches because if it were left up to the fans here, we would have a new coach every other game!!!

What's worse...9 years of Hipsher, Faust or Owens, or a new coach every other game? If Dennis Helsel listend to ZipsNation instead of handing out contract extensions after every win, I'd have a LOT fewer gray hairs. And Dambrot would be in year #8 of his UA tenure.BTW - No one wants Dambrot fired. I swear to God. JD? Seems like there's a few doubters out there. Does Lee Adams read the basketball threads?

[Valpo Zip]

This thread is like comparing your wife to Jessica Alba.Think about this scenario. You have a great wife who loves you and wants to be with you, and let me re-iterate that she is a great woman, beautiful, nice, and taking good care of you. Out of sudden, for no understandable reason, you start comparing her to Jessica Alba and saying how Jessica is sexier and more attractive :blink: Jessica is not yours so you better accept that fact and show your wife the appreciation and respect she deserves or you will end up being alone.Same thing here, there is a coach who is great and doing a hell of a job and he wants to be at Akron. Out of a sudden, we are comparing him to a very successful coach who is not ours. Why would someone do that?

[Zipmeister]

This thread is like comparing your wife to Jessica Alba.Think about this scenario. You have a great wife who loves you and wants to be with you, and let me re-iterate that she is a great woman, beautiful, nice, and taking good care of you. Out of sudden, for no understandable reason, you start comparing her to Jessica Alba and saying how Jessica is sexier and more attractive :blink: Jessica is not yours so you better accept that fact and show your wife the appreciation and respect she deserves or you will end up being alone.Same thing here, there is a coach who is great and doing a hell of a job and he wants to be at Akron. Out of a sudden, we are comparing him to a very successful coach who is not ours. Why would someone do that?

Maybe out of a sudden (I just love that, out of a sudden) he ain't doing the horizontal hokey pokey with you.

[Quickzips]

The reference to the pointlessness of this thread was more directed at the fact that comparing KD and Waters is an exercise in futility. It doesn't get anyone anywhere. They are two different men with two different philosophies about how to play the game of basketball and build a winning program. It doesn't mean either of them is wrong or that one is better than the other. We can compare number of postseason wins, appearances, wins over ranked programs, where the teams were before they took over, etc., etc., etc. until we are blue in the face. It doesn't get anyone anywhere. All it does is make for a bunch of angry fans.

[Dave in Green]

When someone says on a Zips fan forum that a coach at a nearby school is better than a Zips coach, it brings up all kinds of questions that are guaranteed to fuel a healthy debate.Better in what ways? Recruiting? Teaching fundamentals? Winning percentage? Winning the big ones? Winning championships? Maintaining high standards? Obeying both the letter and spirit of all rules and regulations? Graduation rate? Etc.? Etc.? Etc.?Better enough overall to make you want to ditch your own coach and go after the better one?Would it be better for a year or two and then maybe get a lot worse?It's fair for anyone to say they like a Zips coach while questioning exactly how good he is compared with his peers. Just don't be surprised at the inevitable discussion to follow.

[Quickzips]

I have no problem taking an closer look at KD and what he is doing with this program (even though I'm perfectly happy with him as our coach). I just don't think he can be compared to Waters. Waters is an entirely different person in an entirely different situation at CSU. If people want to have a conversation about the relative strenghts and weaknesses of KD, fine, but leave Waters out of the discussion. It's not fair to either one of them.

[w00t]

We may want to duck them while he is there. After all, we are "building" a program here (for how long now? will we beat the completion of the bridge to China?) through beating teams we should easily beat and losing to good teams. I'm not sure how all of that works, but I read on the board we are "building" it. Now that CSU is good, we may not want to break that formula. Keep the cupcakes coming....I guess. For those of you who have season tickets, I'll say it for you...... Let's see some results from all of this "building".....this year.

Yeah, on second thought, I'm with CK on this one... this comment is effusive with praise for what Coach D has done for UA hoops. In no way is GP1's juxtaposition of Waters' CSU team handing Can't their lunch vs. mocking the accomplishments of the Akron in the past few years a backhanded swipe at KD. I stand corrected, CSU is the new face of NEO D-I college hoops, and we're kidding ourselves by thinking that we're any better now than we were five years ago.

[johnnyzip84]

I've stayed away from this discussion, because I do see it as being a largely futile exercize. BUT, it has made me consider something that comes to mind now and then. From a purely HOOPS perspective, is it BENEFICIAL or DETRIMENTAL for a school to also have a FBS football program?Advantages:1) Higher sports profile (more TV exposure in all sports) may be helpful in recruiting2) Higher profile football programs (Big12/SEC/Pac-10) often run surpluses that can buoy an entire athletic budgetDisadvantages:1) Schools w/o football can focus their efforts on hoops as a "flagship" program2) Lower profile football programs (MAC/WAC/Sunbelt) often run deficits that can bring down the entire athletic budgetWhat does anyone else think? I think it might be just a little easier to build a hoops program in a mid-major, hoops only conference.

[Zip Watcher]

This thread is like comparing your wife to Jessica Alba.

Well, that's just lunacy ... my wife is WAY hotter than Jessica Alba.Go Zips!

[Zip Watcher]

the only point I am trying to make is that Watters at Can't and CSU, and Huggins at Akron started with virtually NOTHING.

Here's the last roster before KD became HC.Take away Joyce, Travis & Wood (all recruited to UA by KD).What's left? An All-MAC roster, or one that brought down a the dean of MAC coaches at the time?

I'm sure you are not trying to drag Huggins down.

By merely pointing out that KD is on track to out pace Huggins, I've been accused of doing that. See Huggins is the guy who coached the OVC title game .. I remember & I was there. It was awesome. KD is on that path here .. he's having success .. but by comparing Huggins to KD, I'm dragging down Huggins.

we all know that KD had top notch players to work with when he took over the program.

3 guys he had recruited, that GREW into top notch players on his watch.If this team was in such good shape, why isn't D-Hip still here?

[Zip Watcher]

In a way it reminds me of that old Far Side comic where a guy yells at his dog. Regardless of what the guy really says, the dog only hears one thing.

Now who's the dog? ;) Go Zips!

[ZipAlumn]

we all know that KD had top notch players to work with when he took over the program.

3 guys he had recruited, that GREW into top notch players on his watch.If this team was in such good shape, why isn't D-Hip still here?

How many freshman are ever considered "top notch players" in their first year? Doesn't it take good coaching to mold these players into becoming better and fitting into the team? This entire thread is just beating a dead horse.

[Valpo Zip]

This thread is like comparing your wife to Jessica Alba.

Well, that's just lunacy ... my wife is WAY hotter than Jessica Alba.Go Zips!

Seems like Mrs. ZipWatcher is a reader of this site

[GP1]

(should be an automatic game every year; afraid of a beat-down yourself Waters?).

Be cautious of what you wish for. Waters is the best college coach in NE Ohio and he can recruit better players at CSU because of their laughable academic standards.....and when I say laughable, I mean side splitting laughter or even liquid shooting out of your nose laughter. We may want to duck them while he is there. After all, we are "building" a program here (for how long now? will we beat the completion of the bridge to China?) through beating teams we should easily beat and losing to good teams. I'm not sure how all of that works, but I read on the board we are "building" it. Now that CSU is good, we may not want to break that formula. Keep the cupcakes coming....I guess. For those of you who have season tickets, I'll say it for you...... Let's see some results from all of this "building".....this year.

Congratulations. A garbage post from one of ZN.O's top contributors.KD is every bit the coach Waters is. No one in their right mind would swap rosters with CSU right now. It is WATERS who's running scared here. KD would play every year. CSU ended this. Not UA.Building for "how long" now? This is year 5 of KD's tenure. He's won nearly 100 games (WAY ahead of the pace set by Huggins over the same period). He's won 2 postseason games .. that's more than Waters @ CSU. The Zips have been in the title game the last 2 years. Averaging 22 wins / season and improving every year.If you can't see progress here .. you're not watching the Zips .. oh I forgot .. you don't watch them.You can do better than that .. you usually do.Go Zips!

There's nothing garbage about the post...GP1 and CK are right on the money on this one. Waters is indeed the premiere DI hoops coach in NE OH. And this is no discrespect to any of the other coaches.What he did at Can't will probably never be matched. And now you are also bringing down Huggins in this thread. Good grief....The next time I walk into the JAR and see a MAC championship banner hanging, then we can talk. Until then, there is no argument.

Interesting thoughts by all. I didn't realize a post bashing the low academic standards of CSU was going to take this route, but you never know on a fan board.

[Dave in Green]

the only point I am trying to make is that Watters at Can't and CSU, and Huggins at Akron started with virtually NOTHING.

Here's the last roster before KD became HC.Take away Joyce, Travis & Wood (all recruited to UA by KD).What's left? An All-MAC roster, or one that brought down a the dean of MAC coaches at the time?

I'm sure you are not trying to drag Huggins down.

By merely pointing out that KD is on track to out pace Huggins, I've been accused of doing that. See Huggins is the guy who coached the OVC title game .. I remember & I was there. It was awesome. KD is on that path here .. he's having success .. but by comparing Huggins to KD, I'm dragging down Huggins.

we all know that KD had top notch players to work with when he took over the program.

3 guys he had recruited, that GREW into top notch players on his watch.If this team was in such good shape, why isn't D-Hip still here?

Exactly what I was thinking. If KD recruited top notch players to Akron before he became head coach, then he did not simply come in from out of nowhere and inherit those players. He earned it all himself, just like those other coaches who create something out of nothing by first recruiting better players and then coaching them to a better record than previous teams.

[GP1]

If you can't see progress here .. you're not watching the Zips .. oh I forgot .. you don't watch them.

I have yet to miss a chance to watch this program blow one MAC Championship game after another. Maybe some of you guys could save us all some time and tell us what we are allowed to be critical about without hurting any of your feelinigs. I really don't want anyone to feel bad around here. Life is too short. Are there ways we should be starting a sentence? Are there problems we should not point out? Are there some ideas some of you have invested so much time into believing that it is really off base at this point? Are we or aren't we allowed to have fun at the expense of some public employees people pay to go watch them work? Are we allowed to point out when a player who stinks, stinks? Are we allowed to make fun of the fact that the endless "building" we are doing is actually not building at all? Are we allowed to expect winning against really bad competition? Are we allowed to point out that with the ooc schedule we play, 20 wins a year should be easy? I'm just looking for some guidance here. Again pumpkins, we don't want any feelings hurt around here and we all need to think exactly the same way. Cults of personality have worked well throughout history; we need one here. Once we get the cult of personality going, we can then read really interesting comments on the board such as.... That 52-50 win against Garbage School A&T was excitiing and I can't wait for the Walsh game next week...... Losing against good teams is really the type of building experience we need.... I love watching defense..... I'm interested to see how history will compare KD to John Wooden...... Nate Linhart is my idea of the perfect athlete...... Man, this ooc home schedule is really money well spent on my season tickets and I can't believe more people aren't willing to spend their hard earned money to watch the same thing...... I don't care that he is so lacking in athletic talent that he can't bring the ball up the floor against a good team, Player X is the best point guard ever..... And the always exciting, "we are building a progam we can all be proud of"....