Western Michigan discussion

[Quickzips]

Can't just went down to Toledo, West went 3-1 against the East tonight.

The MAC is just bad, bad, bad this year. We haven't been a good conference in a long time, but this year is just flat out horrible. Ohio and Akron can probably play with most teams, but outside of that there are a lot of teams that would have trouble with D-II schools right now.

Can't just suffered a double digit loss at home to Toledo. They continue to suffer from a lack of strong leadership from their upperclassmen and their coaching staff.

Buffalo is doing their best to waste one of the most talented players in the conference. It doesn't help that their PG is gone, but you really have to feel bad for Javon McCrae. They got absolutely demolished last night in Athens. You have to wonder if it is time to make a change at the top there.

Miami just lost at home to a CMU team that is in the first year of a major re-build. Prior to that they drew less than 1000 fans at home for a good OOC opponent in UMass. I'm afraid that the last 3-4 years of the Charlie Coles era may have done some irreperable damage there.

Bowling Green is a two man show. Outside of Calhoun and Crawford they have nobody. Most of their roster wouldn't sniff a D-I scholarship anywhere else in the country. Louis Orr. Good person. Terrible coach. Terrible recruiter.

EMU is fools gold. They may win a few games here and there that you don't expect them to with that slow it down style, but when faced with a really good team they get slaughtered (witness 52 point loss to Kentucky).

Western was exposed big-time last night. They might actually have the frontcourt to be decent in the MAC, but their backcourt is just so awful it isn't even funny. I have to imagine that Hawkins was in the compliance office this morning desperately trying to find a way to get another season of eligibility for David Kool.

NIU is....NIU. That said, for some reason they always find a way to be a headache for the Zips no matter how bad they are.

Toledo shows some signs of turning things around, and I will give them credit in that unlike the rest of the conference they actually seem willing to invest the resources into trying to get better, but they are still at least a couple of years away. The postseason ban this year seems to have taken a bit of the wind out of their sails.

Central looks to be a bit further in their rebuilding than I would have expected, but they still have a long way to go.

Ball State is on the verge of yet another coaching change.

[Dr Z]

Think this might be the one you are looking for. http://zipsnation.org/forums//index.php?showtopic=27696

Yep, that's it, thanks. It reads like I remember.

PS Nice overview of the Mac QZ, looks like the Zips will continue eating their way through 'Cupcake Tour 2013'

[johnnyzip84]

The MAC is just bad, bad, bad this year. We haven't been a good conference in a long time, but this year is just flat out horrible. Ohio and Akron can probably play with most teams, but outside of that there are a lot of teams that would have trouble with D-II schools right now.

Can't just suffered a double digit loss at home to Toledo. They continue to suffer from a lack of strong leadership from their upperclassmen and their coaching staff.

Buffalo is doing their best to waste one of the most talented players in the conference. It doesn't help that their PG is gone, but you really have to feel bad for Javon McCrae. They got absolutely demolished last night in Athens. You have to wonder if it is time to make a change at the top there.

Miami just lost at home to a CMU team that is in the first year of a major re-build. Prior to that they drew less than 1000 fans at home for a good OOC opponent in UMass. I'm afraid that the last 3-4 years of the Charlie Coles era may have done some irreperable damage there.

Bowling Green is a two man show. Outside of Calhoun and Crawford they have nobody. Most of their roster wouldn't sniff a D-I scholarship anywhere else in the country. Louis Orr. Good person. Terrible coach. Terrible recruiter.

EMU is fools gold. They may win a few games here and there that you don't expect them to with that slow it down style, but when faced with a really good team they get slaughtered (witness 52 point loss to Kentucky).

Western was exposed big-time last night. They might actually have the frontcourt to be decent in the MAC, but their backcourt is just so awful it isn't even funny. I have to imagine that Hawkins was in the compliance office this morning desperately trying to find a way to get another season of eligibility for David Kool.

NIU is....NIU. That said, for some reason they always find a way to be a headache for the Zips no matter how bad they are.

Toledo shows some signs of turning things around, and I will give them credit in that unlike the rest of the conference they actually seem willing to invest the resources into trying to get better, but they are still at least a couple of years away. The postseason ban this year seems to have taken a bit of the wind out of their sails.

Central looks to be a bit further in their rebuilding than I would have expected, but they still have a long way to go.

Ball State is on the verge of yet another coaching change.

Nice summary, QZ

But I think there might be a few, minor oversights. It was NIU who upset Miami in Oxford, not CMU. And with Ball St winning at EMU in the MAC opener, maybe Billy Taylor has a little life left in him as BSU coach after all. They'll need to make a run in the West this season, I'll grant you that. You're general conclusion is spot on. The MAC's good season in football is being tempered by a lousy season in hoops.

[MDZip]

Saw something about Can't State having a 31 game win streak aganst the West teams and I thought that might mean just at home, but it's correct, the Flashes hadn't lost to a West team since Toledo beat them in Feb. 2008. Almost a five year winning streak. No wonder Can't was always near the top of the standings. I think this means Can't is a little worse then people think and Toledo a little better. That would be a little embarassing for Toledo to win the West and then be ineligible for the conference tournament. I think wherever they finish, that seed should be a bye.

[GP1]

The MAC is just bad, bad, bad this year. We haven't been a good conference in a long time, but this year is just flat out horrible. Ohio and Akron can probably play with most teams, but outside of that there are a lot of teams that would have trouble with D-II schools right now.

Can't just suffered a double digit loss at home to Toledo. They continue to suffer from a lack of strong leadership from their upperclassmen and their coaching staff.

Buffalo is doing their best to waste one of the most talented players in the conference. It doesn't help that their PG is gone, but you really have to feel bad for Javon McCrae. They got absolutely demolished last night in Athens. You have to wonder if it is time to make a change at the top there.

Miami just lost at home to a CMU team that is in the first year of a major re-build. Prior to that they drew less than 1000 fans at home for a good OOC opponent in UMass. I'm afraid that the last 3-4 years of the Charlie Coles era may have done some irreperable damage there.

Bowling Green is a two man show. Outside of Calhoun and Crawford they have nobody. Most of their roster wouldn't sniff a D-I scholarship anywhere else in the country. Louis Orr. Good person. Terrible coach. Terrible recruiter.

EMU is fools gold. They may win a few games here and there that you don't expect them to with that slow it down style, but when faced with a really good team they get slaughtered (witness 52 point loss to Kentucky).

Western was exposed big-time last night. They might actually have the frontcourt to be decent in the MAC, but their backcourt is just so awful it isn't even funny. I have to imagine that Hawkins was in the compliance office this morning desperately trying to find a way to get another season of eligibility for David Kool.

NIU is....NIU. That said, for some reason they always find a way to be a headache for the Zips no matter how bad they are.

Toledo shows some signs of turning things around, and I will give them credit in that unlike the rest of the conference they actually seem willing to invest the resources into trying to get better, but they are still at least a couple of years away. The postseason ban this year seems to have taken a bit of the wind out of their sails.

Central looks to be a bit further in their rebuilding than I would have expected, but they still have a long way to go.

Ball State is on the verge of yet another coaching change.

Could it be the MAC is the same in a very predictable way?: two teams are the clear leaders. It seems to me from your post that the major difference in the MAC is the teams in the west have decided to stop sucking so bad and actually compete against the east better. These changes could actually make the league much more entertaining to watch.

[EA3]

Saw something about Can't State having a 31 game win streak aganst the West teams and I thought that might mean just at home, but it's correct, the Flashes hadn't lost to a West team since Toledo beat them in Feb. 2008. Almost a five year winning streak. No wonder Can't was always near the top of the standings. I think this means Can't is a little worse then people think and Toledo a little better. That would be a little embarassing for Toledo to win the West and then be ineligible for the conference tournament. I think wherever they finish, that seed should be a bye.

I argued that Toledo's finish, no matter where in the standings, should be a bye in the MAC tournament. That notion got totally smoked on csnbbs. And, the MAC doesn't support it either. They are going with an 11 team format with the #5 team getting the bye no matter what and going directly to Cleveland.

I don't necessarily think this is fair...but i recognize that any solution has it's drawbacks.

[Captain Kangaroo]

These changes could actually make the league much more entertaining to watch.

Speaking of "entertaining to watch," it will be very interesting to see how the remainder of the Zips home schedule plays-out. Games against OU and Can't will be great, but how can anyone get excited to see a lot more games like Wednesday's WMU drubbing in front of <2k?

Dambrot has built a really strong team. The rest of the MAC hasn't. That sucks for folks like me that would like to watch high-level mid-major hoops for my $600 in season tickets. Maybe DIG and GoZips are on to something by attending practices...I think I'd rather watch the Zips' top 5 go against our 6-10 guys for 40 minutes than watch a 40 minute, 29 point drubbing of EMU!

Zeke vs. Forsythe

Harney vs. Tree

Walsh vs. Kretzer

Abreu vs. Deji/Carmelo

Stalyga vs. Gilliam

Dambrot always wanted to be "The Gonzaga of the MAC." Well...OU and Akron are the Gonzaga and St Mary's of the MAC. Unfortunately there's no BYU in the MAC...just a hoard of San Francisco wannabees.

[MDZip]

I argued that Toledo's finish, no matter where in the standings, should be a bye in the MAC tournament. That notion got totally smoked on csnbbs. And, the MAC doesn't support it either. They are going with an 11 team format with the #5 team getting the bye no matter what and going directly to Cleveland.

I don't necessarily think this is fair...but i recognize that any solution has it's drawbacks.

Actually my suggestion was more tongue in cheek. since say they happened to finish 5th - that would give the 12 seed an automatic pass into the 8/9 winner, that wouldn't seem right. I suspect the five seed will simply get a first round bye and play the winner of 8/9 in the next round. That actually sort of seems fair since the four seed gets two byes. Or worse they finish 3rd and then the next level game down is the right to play #2 in the semi's. I do hope Western plays strong from this point forward. We are all big WMU fans here this Saturday. Go Broncos!

[EA3]

Actually my suggestion was more tongue in cheek. since say they happened to finish 5th - that would give the 12 seed an automatic pass into the 8/9 winner, that wouldn't seem right. I suspect the five seed will simply get a first round bye and play the winner of 8/9 in the next round. That actually sort of seems fair since the four seed gets two byes. Or worse they finish 3rd and then the next level game down is the right to play #2 in the semi's. I do hope Western plays strong from this point forward. We are all big WMU fans here this Saturday. Go Broncos!

WMU certainly has opportunities to help out Akron...with RPI and having Can't, Buffalo and Ohio coming to Kazoo.

I favored Toledo's postseason spot to be vacated simply because I thought the current format used affected too many teams, potentially of course. If Toledo finished 4th in the league, 8 teams would move up a spot, including one that would get a bye to the quarters, another that would get a bye to Cleveland, and yet another that would host a home game rather than be on the road. In my mind, none of those teams earned the right to do such. Although, I recognize the problem of giving a 12 seed a bye directly to Cleveland if Toledo finished 5th.

In the end, the MAC probably got it right. I just don't like the idea of multiple teams getting rewarded with a bye if they didn't earn it in the regular season.

[Hilltopper]

I was going to mention this but decided against it. But since you did...I tried looking up that thread you started before the season entitled something like "Are we going to run this year," but couldn't find it. There was some trap discussion in there. Anyway, I would say the percentage that the Broncos scored off the trap was greater than the percentage they scored when we didn't run the trap last night. Disappointing. I've seen lower seeds in the tourney have success against higher seeds running the trap. I don't see us doing that.

I think the trap is effective at times but we need to use it more carefully. I still want us to pressure full court on every made basket. It's part of our strategy of going 11 deep every game. The constant pressure starts to really wear on our opponents in the second half.

[ZachTheZip]

I think the trap is effective at times but we need to use it more carefully. I still want us to pressure full court on every made basket. It's part of our strategy of going 11 deep every game. The constant pressure starts to really wear on our opponents in the second half.

They just need more in-game practice running it. They'll get the hang of it, and it will become a valuable weapon by the end of the season.

[Quickzips]

Could it be the MAC is the same in a very predictable way?: two teams are the clear leaders. It seems to me from your post that the major difference in the MAC is the teams in the west have decided to stop sucking so bad and actually compete against the east better. These changes could actually make the league much more entertaining to watch.

I don't think it has as much to do with the MAC West teams not sucking as much. I think it has more to do with certain MAC East teams sucking more. I could argue that outside of Akron and Ohio the rest of the MAC East has taken a significant step back this season.

You can kind of forgive Miami's drop off a bit with a new coach implementing a new system after years under Charlie Coles. Bowling Green's issues are inexcusable. When you only have two players who are even capable of scoring the ball on offense your coaching staff is flat out not doing it's job on the recruiting trail. Buffalo has something of an excuse as a key injury to their PG has left them scrambling, but they look pretty bad. Can't has no real excuse. They have enough history on their side that they shouldn't be losing at home to MAC West teams that have nothing to play for.

I don't find much entertainment in watching crappy basketball, and that is pretty much all you are going to see from the MAC this year. IMO there are only two games that are in any way worth watching. Ohio at Akron and Akron at Ohio.

[Dave in Green]

The hidden benefit of frequent full-court pressing and trapping is that using it every day in practice means that your offense gets accustomed to playing against it. I recall not too many years ago that the Zips offense had a hard time handling pressure defenses. It appears to me now that the Zips are more comfortable and effective moving the ball upcourt when they're being pressed since they now practice against it every day.

[johnnyzip84]

The hidden benefit of frequent full-court pressing and trapping is that using it every day in practice means that your offense gets accustomed to playing against it. I recall not too many years ago that the Zips offense had a hard time handling pressure defenses. It appears to me now that the Zips are more comfortable and effective moving the ball upcourt when they're being pressed since they now practice against it every day.

The benefit of seeing these defenses in practice is a good point, Dave. I think it's also important to separate the full court press from the mid-court trap the Zips have been experimenting with lately. I've seen much more success with the former, albeit in mostly in garbage time against an outmannned foe like UAPB or Coppin (Floppin') St, than the latter. I think some of the problem has been the personnel on the court when the trap has been been attempted. That second defender has to be sneaky and quick for this to work, and I have yet to see much of either. I'm not saying I'd give up entirely on it, but I would reiterate that it doesn't bode well that it hasn't worked well (IMHO) against a team like WMU. I think OU would carve this strategy to pieces at this point.

[phil]

I don't care how bad the MAC team are this year. Akron has yet to show that it can win on the road. I hope that your analysis is correct and that the Zips can win the rest of their games but the history of the Zips is that they will have bad games on the road.

The full court press does not seem to force many turnovers. We pressure the inbounds pass and then drop off until we double team the ball at half court. Although we are not getting turnovers it does seem to wear the other teams out since they do not have our depth.

[Quickzips]

I don't care how bad the MAC team are this year. Akron has yet to show that it can win on the road. I hope that your analysis is correct and that the Zips can win the rest of their games but the history of the Zips is that they will have bad games on the road.

The full court press does not seem to force many turnovers. We pressure the inbounds pass and then drop off until we double team the ball at half court. Although we are not getting turnovers it does seem to wear the other teams out since they do not have our depth.

Going on the road against NIU is a little different than going on the road against Creighton. Will we blow out the Huskies (as in 20-30 point victory), I don't know. But I am not expecting the Zips to lay an egg.

I'll also chime in on the full-court press issue. Unlike some others on here, I actually like what it is doing for us. You have to have a realistic expectation when you go to a full court defense.

First, you have to go into it knowing that you are going to give up a few easy buckets along the way because when a team is able to beat it you don't have a sufficient second line of defense back there in a lot of instances. I won't complain about Richie getting a few easy layups when the Zips went out and tried to trap. You will get that when you press. You don't see as much of it when you run a straight up, man to man half court defense. You also don't generally see as many turnovers and run-outs the other way off of rushed shots when you play straight up half court defense.

Which brings me to my second point. It isn't ALL about forcing turnovers. Focusing in on raw turnover numbers can often be a false indicator of whether or not a press is working. A good full court press can be just as effective forcing 20 turnovers as it is forcing 12 turnovers if in the process you force your opponent to rush 8-10 shots leading to a quick rebound and a run-out.

Finally, I don't think you can discount the impact the press has in terms of your opponents stamina. Most teams in the country (and certainly in the MAC) are not going to run out a 10 or 11 man rotation like the Zips have done this year. A lot of teams may only go 7 or 8 deep. If the Zips can continue to go 10 or 11 deep and force opponents to have to play full court they are going to continue to see opponents tire in the second half (as I believe Western did on Wednesday).

[GoZips]

Going on the road against NIU is a little different than going on the road against Creighton. Will we blow out the Huskies (as in 20-30 point victory), I don't know. But I am not expecting the Zips to lay an egg.

I'll also chime in on the full-court press issue. Unlike some others on here, I actually like what it is doing for us. You have to have a realistic expectation when you go to a full court defense.

First, you have to go into it knowing that you are going to give up a few easy buckets along the way because when a team is able to beat it you don't have a sufficient second line of defense back there in a lot of instances. I won't complain about Richie getting a few easy layups when the Zips went out and tried to trap. You will get that when you press. You don't see as much of it when you run a straight up, man to man half court defense. You also don't generally see as many turnovers and run-outs the other way off of rushed shots when you play straight up half court defense.

Which brings me to my second point. It isn't ALL about forcing turnovers. Focusing in on raw turnover numbers can often be a false indicator of whether or not a press is working. A good full court press can be just as effective forcing 20 turnovers as it is forcing 12 turnovers if in the process you force your opponent to rush 8-10 shots leading to a quick rebound and a run-out.

Finally, I don't think you can discount the impact the press has in terms of your opponents stamina. Most teams in the country (and certainly in the MAC) are not going to run out a 10 or 11 man rotation like the Zips have done this year. A lot of teams may only go 7 or 8 deep. If the Zips can continue to go 10 or 11 deep and force opponents to have to play full court they are going to continue to see opponents tire in the second half (as I believe Western did on Wednesday).

Nice overall analysis.

Fans seldom realize that the Zips employ four different full court presses. Only one is designed to force turnovers. The

primary function of a full court press is to deny the opponent enough time to set up and run their half court offense.

The expected result of the press is to wear down the opponent and to exasperate them. I think if you check their shooting

percentage overall verses how they did against Akron you will get a picture of the effectiveness of Akron's press.

That Ritchie was able to score on driving lay ups was the fault of one defender who failed to stay in front of him. Its fixed.

[Dave in Green]

Good discussion. There are counters to every type of offense and defense, and there are also tradeoffs. If the positives outweigh the negatives, it will show up as a net plus on the bottom line, which in basketball is the final score. In the early part of the season, the numbers show that the Zips' offense was much more effective than the defense. Holding WMU 25 points under their season scoring average not only gave the Zips a big win but also gave their season average defensive numbers a big boost. If the Zips continue to improve on their execution of the pressure defense without excessive fouling, their defensive numbers will continue to improve to the point that they are as big a threat to beat other teams with their defense as they have been with their offense.