Bowden Says JAR Needs Replaced

[Spin]

I guess you'd have to show me a study that proves that. I'm not certain that with more comfortable seats we suddenly start getting 7,000 people each game.

Canton-Akron Indians attendance: 204,000

Akron Aeros attendance: 309,000

Cleveland Stadium: 2,177,908 (farewell season)

Jacobs Field: 3,468,436

Cleveland Arena: 214,119

Richfield Coliseum: 753,686

Do I need to compare Rubber Blow attendance to InfoCision?

[Captain Kangaroo]

Why is there the assumption that, if you build a nicer, larger arena, that is must sell out every game?

Big deal if Akron vs. Bethune-Cookman only draws 3,679 at the new arena. Those 3,679 will be spending three times as much money as the 2,783 that would watch the same game at the JAR. And not suffer from Bleacher Butt.

[legendofzippy]

Canton-Akron Indians attendance: 204,000

Akron Aeros attendance: 309,000

Cleveland Stadium: 2,177,908 (farewell season)

Jacobs Field: 3,468,436

Cleveland Arena: 214,119

Richfield Coliseum: 753,686

Do I need to compare Rubber Blow attendance to InfoCision?

Wow, way to cherry-pick a few stats to support your point. I'm sure it will get financing now.

[Dr Z]

...way to cherry-pick a few stats to support your point.

Those were just a few examples within 30 miles of Akron that ZN readers can relate to. I don't need to see a full list to see the point. Well done Spin.

[Hilltopper]

If we ever get a new arena I will definitely upgrade my tickets. I would imagine I'm not the only one who has the same idea.

[legendofzippy]

Those were just a few examples within 30 miles of Akron that ZN readers can relate to. I don't need to see a full list to see the point. Well done Spin.

Well, people also blamed football attendance on the distance to the Rubber Bowl. An on-campus stadium would increase numbers was the logic. That worked out pretty well.

I'd love a new arena too, but blaming poor attendance on uncomfortable seats is pretty lame.

[Spin]

Wow, way to cherry-pick a few stats to support your point. I'm sure it will get financing now.

Cherry pick???

I used the new facilities in NE Ohio as examples. I left the two football stadiums out as the teams have sucked over the last 5+ years and teams that suck in a bad economy generally don't draw many customers. A concept most people understand.

Those numbers came from the best years at those venues. In fact I used the artificially inflated Cleveland Stadium attendance figure from its last year there where the team played on the fans nostalgia and told them they wanted to come back and say goodbye to the dump. It worked, attendance doubled over what it was the previous 5-10 years.

The Aeros attendance is particularly telling, as the team moved from a high school quality stadium with bleachers and poor facilities to the more modern, more comfortable, more suitable facilities. The Cavs attendance should have gone down with the move from downtown to the woods of Richfield. You couldn't even get to it from Cleveland without doing a U-turn on a freeway exit ramp. The first year there, with still a losing team, attendance doubled.

If you don't like my numbers, get off your ass and do your own study. You got what you asked for. I've wasted enough time trying to convince you that people are more apt to lay down money to sit in comfortable seats and have food and beverages and restrooms readily accessible than to sit on bleachers in a middle school gym.

[Spin]

Well, people also blamed football attendance on the distance to the Rubber Bowl. An on-campus stadium would increase numbers was the logic. That worked out pretty well.

I'd love a new arena too, but blaming poor attendance on uncomfortable seats is pretty lame.

If the basketball team went 3-33, you might see attendance drop like a rock in the second half of their season too.

[GoZips]

If the basketball team went 3-33, you might see attendance drop like a rock in the second half of their season too.

Question: Why are you dwelling in the past?

The objective is progress and much better teams. Men and women's basketball have done it.

Terry Bowden is an accomplished man. Please do not project on to him and his staff your shortcomings.

Big Dog is coming.

[Dave in Green]

@Spin, that's some good data you've provided. I'm with Hilltopper on upgrading my seat only after a new arena finally arrives. The JAR's lower level, more expensive seating is not worth the upgrade price to me. I've sat down there and the viewing angle is too shallow, with people in front of you blocking more court view than in the steeper angle, less expensive, upper level seats.

It's best to eliminate variables when comparing the before/after of a single element like attendance. For example, to accurately judge the increase in attendance of the new on-campus football stadium over the tired old stadium miles from campus, other attendance variables such as team performance would need to be consistent. Unfortunately, the move to the new football stadium occurred simultaneously with a precipitous drop in the football team's performance, offsetting expected attendance gains. Coach Bowden is well on his way to producing team performance that along with the new stadium should generate much stronger attendance numbers.

Under Coach Dambrot, Zips basketball program performance has been on an upward trajectory for years, and attendance has been slowly increasing. Adding a new arena while maintaining that upward performance trajectory would undoubtedly result in a further increase in attendance, and it would surely cause me to spend more money on premium seating. While it's speculative to cite exact numbers of attendance increase resulting from a new Zips basketball arena, looking at similar experiences at other area venues like those Spin provided can at least give a ballpark idea of what might be expected.

[Spin]

Question: Why are you dwelling in the past?

I'm not dwelling in the past. I'm explaining why attendance hasn't shot up at the new football stadium like it has all the other venues I listed.

[Captain Kangaroo]

If you were a business person, could you entertain a client at the JAR?

Our premier JAR entertainment facility is the Tommy Evans Lounge. A few years ago I won a TEL pass at the basketball golf outing. I went there for a noon tip-off game.

Before the game they had a breakfast bar. Nasty-looking stuff. At halftime I went back in, and the same breakfast food was sitting in the bins...just more nasty and dried-up (this happens after food's been sitting at room temp for 4 hours). A few octogenarians seemed to enjoy it, but that was about it.

The soda dispensers ran out of syrup and the lines to get a Pepsi were about 50-deep. They did have some ice cream sundaes laid out on a table, but the table was directly in front of the long front window, so it all melted. There were also about 200 people packed into that room...you could barely move.

I think that experience would be better if there was a new venue. Maybe. Just maybe.

[legendofzippy]

Cherry pick???

I used the new facilities in NE Ohio as examples. I left the two football stadiums out as the teams have sucked over the last 5+ years and teams that suck in a bad economy generally don't draw many customers. A concept most people understand.

It's still cherry picking. You'd have to do an extensive study on people in the Akron area to find out why they don't already go to games when the team has been a winner for close to a decade now.

A new arena is going to cost many millions of dollars. Where is the money going to come from? They're pushing fundraising as much as they can, they're open to a shared facility with the city, the marketing department is going all out, they've retained Coach Dambrot.... from what I can tell they're doing everything they can.

Are the fans? No. The arena gets packed twice a year, and a lot of that is help from the Can't and OU fans.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Are the fans? No. The arena gets packed twice a year, and a lot of that is help from the Can't and OU fans.

95% of the JAR was Akron at the last Akron/K.e.n.t. basketball game.

[Spin]

It's still cherry picking. You'd have to do an extensive study on people in the Akron area to find out why they don't already go to games when the team has been a winner for close to a decade now.

A new arena is going to cost many millions of dollars. Where is the money going to come from? They're pushing fundraising as much as they can, they're open to a shared facility with the city, the marketing department is going all out, they've retained Coach Dambrot.... from what I can tell they're doing everything they can.

Are the fans? No. The arena gets packed twice a year, and a lot of that is help from the Can't and OU fans.

If you won't even consider that basic data, you're not going to listen to anything anybody says.

And we talked about how to finance it ad nauseum. READ.

[legendofzippy]

If you won't even consider that basic data, you're not going to listen to anything anybody says.

And we talked about how to finance it ad nauseum. READ.

If your basic data is so reliable and so obvious, then where's the new arena?

[Spin]

[legendofzippy]

Look, we'll get a new arena eventually, bud I'd love to see you stand in front of a board of directors and explain how comfy seats will fix everything.

Here, click on Akron and see how much the students pay for the sports program. Now click on Purdue or Indiana, or one of the other teams you're ripping in the other thread, and do a comparison.

Or wait, let's look at Ohio. They have a big comfy arena and competitive teams, surely they're raking in the ticket sales, right?

USA Today College Sports

[Spin]

I know there's more to it than that. We've been talking about all of the aspects for over a year. Welcome to the conversation.

You said you wanted a study. I spent my own time putting one together for you showing what happened to attendance when a better facility was built. You didn't even take one look at it because it proves you wrong.

Now you're claiming that we think that's ALL we need, and throwing all this other crap out. How much students pay has what to do with attendance going up with tenable facilities?

I'm done.

[legendofzippy]

I know there's more to it than that. We've been talking about all of the aspects for over a year. Welcome to the conversation.

You said you wanted a study. I spent my own time putting one together for you showing what happened to attendance when a better facility was built. You didn't even take one look at it because it proves you wrong.

Now you're claiming that we think that's ALL we need, and throwing all this other crap out. How much students pay has what to do with attendance going up with tenable facilities?

I'm done.

Those numbers you put out didn't impress me much. Not trying to be mean, but come on. New seats are why Jacobs Field started filling up? Maybe one of the most exciting teams in baseball in decades had something to do with that. A revamped part of the city, easier access to bars... lots went into it.

Plus all the examples were pro teams, so not really the same thing. Every stadium probably gets a bump the first few years, but that doesn't justify the investment. Do I like the JAR? No. But the team wins anyway, and if the University decides to pump money into salaries, R&D, new labs, new technology, satellite campuses or any other of a million things to raise the standards of the University, I'm fine with that too.

I wish it were different, but fan interest in the Zips in the greater Akron area just isn't that high. Northeast Ohio has TONS of options for fans - this isn't Athens where we're the only game in town. There are three pro teams right up the road, and OSU is always going to dominate the state on the collegiate level.

Again, I wish it were different, but fans need to step up and attend more games.

[Spin]

I wish it were different, but fan interest in the Zips in the greater Akron area just isn't that high. Northeast Ohio has TONS of options for fans - this isn't Athens where we're the only game in town. There are three pro teams right up the road, and OSU is always going to dominate the state on the collegiate level.

But that's what we're trying to say. Fans aren't interested in going to a high school gym. You've heard several of them right here. You can't build fan interest

NThe Canton-Akron Indians and the Canton Crockodiles and the Canton Coyotes lost money in that high school stadium. They moved to a nice facility, and despite being in the Indian's shadow, we broke attendance records. There are FIVE profitable minor league teams in the Indian's shadow. That's not an issue in this market. We broke attendance records in indoor soccer, in the same building the Cavs were in season. You have to win. And you have to have a decent building.

College basketball is a more popular sport than minor league baseball or indoor soccer. They've been to the dance. Going rounds would help. But as far as attendance, the potential is there. Squeezing people together in folding bleachers just doesn't cut it.

We can't build enough stands to hold all of the Zips soccer fans. Even with Ohio State in Ohio.

The university continues to upgrade facilities and student services. Why? Because you have to today. Today's college student doesn't want to go to a college stuck in the 1940's. Sports fans are the same.

[Z.I.P.]

Look, we'll get a new arena eventually, bud I'd love to see you stand in front of a board of directors and explain how comfy seats will fix everything.

Here, click on Akron and see how much the students pay for the sports program. Now click on Purdue or Indiana, or one of the other teams you're ripping in the other thread, and do a comparison.

Or wait, let's look at Ohio. They have a big comfy arena and competitive teams, surely they're raking in the ticket sales, right?

USA Today College Sports

VERY fascinating info. BUT, how exactly are they defining "subsidy"? Is it just student fees? How about state tax dollars?

[GP1]

At halftime I went back in, and the same breakfast food was sitting in the bins...just more nasty and dried-up (this happens after food's been sitting at room temp for 4 hours). A few octogenarians seemed to enjoy it, but that was about it.

I'm surprised they didn't market it as a 2 for 1 deal. Breakfast and lunch at the same game.

[mbalsinger]

VERY fascinating info. BUT, how exactly are they defining "subsidy"? Is it just student fees? How about state tax dollars?

I'd say it's probably student fees. I know a good portion of student fees goes to supporting sports...dividing the "subsidy" cost by the number of students you can easily see that it's around the cost of what student fees are payed by students each year (individually).

[OU Dude]

... Northeast Ohio has TONS of options for fans - this isn't Athens where we're the only game in town. There are three pro teams right up the road, and OSU is always going to dominate the state on the collegiate level.

Again, I wish it were different, but fans need to step up and attend more games.

+11K fans, including 5K students, didn't come out on a Wednesday night in Feb to watch the Zips beat the Cats in OT because there was nothing else to do in Athens, its not that simple. If small towns= higher attendance then there are plenty of small towns in the MAC who should be doing a lot better.

Outsiders point of view- Zips need a new arena. It's the next step. How much more can Dambrot and the team do, really? 6 MAC title games in a row, 3 NCAA appearances, a million 20+ win seasons in a row, and on and on. Sure, making a run in the Tourney would be nice, but at this point its just the next step, not a game changer.

Look at what BGSU did- they fleeced a bunch of well meaning old men and got them to fund a new high school gym that seats 4,700. Its a nice, new flashing neon sign that tells students, alums, locals- we're small time now and forever. Akron needs to make a statement, but the right statement. Doesn't have to be too big and flashy, 7k-8k would be plenty.

If you build it, they will come.