Point Guards

[tomzip]

I didn't watch it (I will tonight when I get home from work), just listened to it by the bedside at 4AM, and by 4:30 it was off. This could be a long season if this doesn't get figured out quickly. The frustration is if we had Alex how much better we'd be. Every year we seem to be missing one piece (Q last year). I hate the fact that in the Dambrot era, we cannot get a signature win. I think the closest was on the road at Ohio last year, but in order for us to take the program to another level, we have to win one of these non conference games. I hate to say it, but Can't gets it done it seems, like last night at Temple, we on the other hand would have folded.

I figured a loss for this game with all of the travel, the time, etc, but not by 22. I sat in the Palace earlier in the year with the same feeling, will we ever step up and win a game that on paper we shouldn't?

[Jalapeño Zippy]

In the Dambrot era we've beaten Creighton, Florida State, Temple and Mississippi State. Those are signature wins. I am sure there are others as well. I think what you're saying is we need one or two every year. This year it may happen and probably will toward the middle to end of the OOC part of the schedule. Too many new parts. We are replacing a starting PG & C & Wing as well as another talented wing.

[Balsy]

Though I agree our PG needs drastic improvement...I can't help but say...do you remember last year? Yes we were down a few players at the beginning of the year...but we managed to drop games against mediocre teams (Detroit...Coastal Carolina...) early as well as dropping games to a good team (Ok. St.). Even during the regular season WITH Abreu we looked, at times,...really, infuriatingly bad (Buffalo loss comes to mind).

St. Mary's is a pretty good team, and the score IMO is more a reflection on the absolutely ridiculous and absurd prospect of playing at 3:00am curtosey of ESPN, than it was huge problems with our team. We have the SAME problems I saw last year with the team, but they were often invisible because we'd win the game in the end. Controlling the ball, making free-throws and scoring off turnovers is STILL a problem for us. I almost feel that this team is the exact same team we fielded last year...a bipolar entity that needs to find it's true identity sooner rather than later.

Middle Tennessee will be a better measure of the Zips for me than a 3am game against a probably Top-25 later-in-the-year team. I was disappointed that I was up at 3am to watch an aggravating loss. But for 3/4 of the game we fought and bounced back.

[The Hip Zip]

38 minutes between Betancourt and Evans and zero assists. I can't ever remember any teams two true point guards going without an assist. That says it all.

[GoZips]

38 minutes between Betancourt and Evans and zero assists. I can't ever remember any teams two true point guards going without an assist. That says it all.

Kacie Cassell had nine assists and one turn over in twenty-three minutes.

But, then, Coach Kest looks for gym rats. Sadly, I get the impression that Betancourt and Evans are more of the lounge lizard variety.

[Dave in Green]

@GoZips, I like the idea of giving more preference to gym rat recruits. I think they must be the only type of player that Shaka Smart recruits in order to run VCU's relentless havoc defense and still have plenty of energy for offense. I'm interested to see Aaron Jackson play next season because I think he has a gym rat motor. Obviously you can't do it with speed and endurance alone. You also have to have fundamental basketball skills. But what a huge advantage to be able to continue at full speed as your opponents are slowing down with fatigue.

[taxpayer]

Zips couldn't have shot the ball worse.....the assists will come, especially from Melo as he is pass first. Nyles makes for a good contrast. St Mary's was not going to be a good experience; neither will MTS if we don't shoot better.

I still think we are a below average offensive team due as much to scheme as anything; defensive effort will need to be this teams' calling card. If it is, we will have a decent season, if we get caught up in offensive stats and save ourselves for the offensive end it may be a tough year.

I think most anticipated a rough start to the season but come January I believe the Zips will be ready to compete for the MAC championship again. BTW, nice effort by the kitties last night vs the boys from C town.

[VAZip]

I am trying to understand this current argument with the point guard situation. I know that my basketball IQ is probably less than many folks on this site so feel free to correct me. Are we saying that they are not capable of carrying out the set play as designed or that they just lack the experience and ability to organically recognize where the ball needs to be? The reason I ask this is I don't think I saw anything that I recognized as a set play in the first 2 games. No real screens, back door passes, drive and dish, pick and rolls, nothing but half court offense...pass to the bigs and Mano a Mano. Definitely zero movement on the offense. It would seem to me that if the point lacks experience you would have plays designed to make them as successful as possible. When I think of the successful mid majors (VCU excluded to some degree) in the tournament, I think of well designed basketball play, not necessarily the most athletic. Lets face it...if our players could beat the high majors with pure athleticism they probably wouldn't be at Akron.

[Blue & Gold]

I am trying to understand this current argument with the point guard situation. I know that my basketball IQ is probably less than many folks on this site so feel free to correct me. Are we saying that they are not capable of carrying out the set play as designed or that they just lack the experience and ability to organically recognize where the ball needs to be? The reason I ask this is I don't think I saw anything that I recognized as a set play in the first 2 games. No real screens, back door passes, drive and dish, pick and rolls, nothing but half court offense...pass to the bigs and Mano a Mano. Definitely zero movement on the offense. It would seem to me that if the point lacks experience you would have plays designed to make them as successful as possible. When I think of the successful mid majors (VCU excluded to some degree) in the tournament, I think of well designed basketball play, not necessarily the most athletic. Lets face it...if our players could beat the high majors with pure athleticism they probably wouldn't be at Akron.

You've hit on something (lack of recognizable offense) we've been wondering about / complaining about for years.

We've said in the past, the offense consists of perimeter pass - pass - pass - pass - pass - pass - pass - pass - launch a contested three.

Now that we've got legit bigs, our offense has changed, but I still don't see much resembling traditional basketball offensive movement.

A few years ago an assistant coach (IIRC) posted on ZNO about the offense we run & tried to explain it, but it was so complex it was hilarious - like reading Greek.

Basketball should really be a relatively simple game.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Are we saying that they are not capable of carrying out the set play as designed or that they just lack the experience and ability to organically recognize where the ball needs to be?

The latter.

Also - getting the ball up the court quickly and not letting the offense stagnate is a problem with a sub-par PG.

A great point guard is unselfish and pass-first, but he's a threat to score if the defense slacks-off. With a great point guard, the remainder of the offense works to get open because they know he'll get them the rock. Our present "true" point guards are not a threat to score. And the opposing D can clog the paint in the half-court. And when the ball is tossed down low, there's no threat of kicking it back to the PG for a 3. That was a real strength/threat of Abreu. He kept the D honest.

You contend that our roster has no high-major talent. True. But we are as loaded and anyone with high mid-major talent. Except at point guard. That is hurting us against teams like VCU and St Marys. Teams we should not be getting rolled by 20 - 40 points as we complete decade #1 of the KD Era.

How would I address this issue?

I make Diggs THE point guard, immediately. Give him 25...maybe even 30 minutes per game exclusively at the point. Diggs is our best ball handler, and he is a legit threat to drain the three if left open. He's also our most creative passer. What needs to change is - Diggs needs to put his wing mentality in the garbage can for the remainder of the season. He can't be the isolation guy that relies on dribble-penetration so heavily. There, he simply turns the ball over too much. Every time down the court he needs to think "pass first." If he can embrace that mentality, things will open up everywhere.

The crappy Boston Celtics, who jettisoned hall of famers Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, have now won 4 straight. They beat Miami, in Miami, a couple nights ago. They are winning because Brad Stevens handed the point guard reins to Jordan Crawford, a guy with a career reputation as an out-of-control gunner But Stevens recognized he was the team's best passer. He's longer than most point guards. And his ability to drain an open outside look keeps the opposing team's D honest. [side Note - I realize most of you don't follow the Celtics, but if you click on the link and read the embedded column from a Zips/Abreu/Diggs point of view, I think the correlation between that, and the Celtics/Rondo/Crawford situation makes it applicable and interesting.]

The Zips need Diggs as their #1 point guard. Not as a "hobby," but as his primary position. Diggs needs to eschew a few shots per game in lieu a few assists, for the overall team good. There is no other PG option with the upside such a move offers.

[mivid12]

CB doesn't even look to score. I don't think he has the skills to play at the D1 level, just my opine.

I like Evans, i get that he's still feeling his way around so to speak, but he should be starting and he HAS to look to score.

[The Hip Zip]

CB doesn't even look to score. I don't think he has the skills to play at the D1 level, just my opine.

I like Evans, i get that he's still feeling his way around so to speak, but he should be starting and he HAS to look to score.

I agree with your assessment of CB and always have held the same opinion.

[VAZip]

The latter.

Also - getting the ball up the court quickly and not letting the offense stagnate is a problem with a sub-par PG.

A great point guard is unselfish and pass-first, but he's a threat to score if the defense slacks-off. With a great point guard, the remainder of the offense works to get open because they know he'll get them the rock. Our present "true" point guards are not a threat to score. And the opposing D can clog the paint in the half-court. And when the ball is tossed down low, there's no threat of kicking it back to the PG for a 3. That was a real strength/threat of Abreu. He kept the D honest.

You contend that our roster has no high-major talent. True. But we are as loaded and anyone with high mid-major talent. Except at point guard. That is hurting us against teams like VCU and St Marys. Teams we should not be getting by 20 - 40 points as we complete decade #1 of the KD Era.

How would I address this issue?

I make Diggs THE point guard, immediately. Give him 25...maybe even 30 minutes per game exclusively at the point. Diggs is our best ball handler, and he is a legit threat to drain the three if left open. He's also our most creative passer. What needs to change is - Diggs needs to put his wing mentality in the garbage can for the remainder of the season. He can't be the isolation guy that relies on dribble-penetration so heavily. There, he simply turns the ball over too much. Every time down the court he needs to think "pass first." If he can embrace that mentality, things will open up everywhere.

The crappy Boston Celtics, who jettisoned hall of famers Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, have now won 4 straight. They beat Miami, in Miami, a couple nights ago. They are winning because Brad Stevens handed the point guard reins to Jordan Crawford, a guy with a career reputation as an out-of-control gunner But Stevens recognized he was the team's best passer. He's longer than most point guards. And his ability to drain an open outside look keeps the opposing team's D honest. [side Note - I realize most of you don't follow the Celtics, but if you click on the link and read the embedded column from a Zips/Abreu/Diggs point of view, I think the correlation between that, and the Celtics/Rondo/Crawford situation makes it applicable and interesting.]

The Zips need Diggs as their #1 point guard. Not as a "hobby," but as his primary position. Diggs needs to eschew a few shots per game in lieu a few assists, for the overall team good. There is no other PG option with the upside such a move offers.

Thanks for the well thought out reply...just two things. I seem to remember AA walking the ball up the court more often than not. Secondly, does the coaching staff have any responsibility to design plays that allows a player to be open? It just seems there is a lot of standing around on offense.

[The Hip Zip]

It is a set play to try to space 4 and dump low post. Not complex, but a play none the less.

As a HS guard we were lucky if we properly executed a called play 20% of the time. I do realize that at the div 1 level this number is higher but many would be surprised at how often a set play breaks down. There is this little thing called defense that can disrupt any set play.

[Hilltopper]

Having been to numerous practices I can state with pretty good confidence that Melo has no ability to hit an outside shot. He knows it too and thats why his offense consists of drives to the basket resulting blocks and turnovers. Evans needs to step up his game to the D-1 level. I think he can do it.

[Dave in Green]

@The Hip Zip, you make a good point. A complaint in the past about Coach Dambrot is that he tries to teach too many plays. The reality is that the Zips try to set up a number of different plays on each possession, but break them off when the defense counters. It may look like helter skelter to fans who haven't watched the Zips learning and practicing all the different plays. But they're searching for the play that takes advantage of what the defense is least prepared for. Sometimes they run out of time and have to jack up a quick one. When I watch other teams play I see this happen several times in every game, so it's not just the Zips. I think this will improve as the season goes on and all the players become more comfortable with their roles and understand what their teammates are going to be doing.

@Captain Kangaroo, I like your thinking on Q. @GoZips said the same thing about Q here several weeks ago. Another advantage with Q is that he's now a mature man with much greater self-discipline than he had a few seasons ago. He's said that he's willing to play the point if Coach Dambrot wants him to. I can understand how Coach Dambrot would prefer to have one of his younger players step up and become the clear primary PG option as Q will be gone at the end of this season. But I think if Nyles or Melo don't clearly show significant progress, Q could take over and produce good results this season.

Another option would be to minimize the PG position from a ball distribution standpoint. Let the PG be responsible for bringing the ball upcourt, but then let one of the other players become the primary ball distributor. It could be a wing, a forward or even a center. Whoever it is would need to be good at maintaining control of the ball and have a low turnover rate. They'd need good court vision and the ability to pass crisply and with smarts. I could even see Big Dog developing into an effective point center. He showed me a lot against Saint Mary's in terms of catching everything thrown to him, protecting the ball and finding the open man. His bounce pass to Nick that produced Nick's only field goal of the game was a thing of beauty. Big Dog appears to have much surer hands than Pat, and I don't think we'll see many balls knocked out of his hands as we used to see with Zeke.

[GoZips]

@The Hip Zip, you make a good point. A complaint in the past about Coach Dambrot is that he tries to teach too many plays. The reality is that the Zips try to set up a number of different plays on each possession, but break them off when the defense counters. It may look like helter skelter to fans who haven't watched the Zips learning and practicing all the different plays. But they're searching for the play that takes advantage of what the defense is least prepared for. Sometimes they run out of time and have to jack up a quick one. When I watch other teams play I see this happen several times in every game, so it's not just the Zips. I think this will improve as the season goes on and all the players become more comfortable with their roles and understand what their teammates are going to be doing.

@Captain Kangaroo, I like your thinking on Q. @GoZips said the same thing about Q here several weeks ago. Another advantage with Q is that he's now a mature man with much greater self-discipline than he had a few seasons ago. He's said that he's willing to play the point if Coach Dambrot wants him to. I can understand how Coach Dambrot would prefer to have one of his younger players step up and become the clear primary PG option as Q will be gone at the end of this season. But I think if Nyles or Melo don't clearly show significant progress, Q could take over and produce good results this season.

Another option would be to minimize the PG position from a ball distribution standpoint. Let the PG be responsible for bringing the ball upcourt, but then let one of the other players become the primary ball distributor. It could be a wing, a forward or even a center. Whoever it is would need to be good at maintaining control of the ball and have a low turnover rate. They'd need good court vision and the ability to pass crisply and with smarts. I could even see Big Dog developing into an effective point center. He showed me a lot against Saint Mary's in terms of catching everything thrown to him, protecting the ball and finding the open man. His bounce pass to Nick that produced Nick's only field goal of the game was a thing of beauty. Big Dog appears to have much surer hands than Pat, and I don't think we'll see many balls knocked out of his hands as we used to see with Zeke.

Frankly, Cap'n Kangaroo wrote his best and most incisive post ever today. DIG's response also hits it on the head.

I just read the News Collector article about the women signing five players. They signed a point guard that on paper reads

like a more knowledgeable and capable point guard than the two men the men have. And, she is taller, sigh. In fact, one point

about the signees: they all are excellent shooters and ball handlers. Ahem.

It sickened me to hear the TV announcer repeatedly describe Evans passes as "lazy". Because they were. There is no snap

to his passes. They were repeatedly intercepted. Akron was turnover city. I thought I was in a bakery with all those turnovers.

Perhaps it is not in the cards, but, for my money, I would love for Quincy Diggs to be Akron's point guard. Yes, I realize

that Q is a departing senior. That creates a huge hole next season as Joshua Williams will still be in high school. Now

where could the Zips find a point guard for next season? Well, the Zips still have one open scholarship for 2014. I think

I'd spend it on a JUCO. That would also give Josh a year to learn the college game without throwing him to the wolves.

[Zips Win!]

The latter.

Also - getting the ball up the court quickly and not letting the offense stagnate is a problem with a sub-par PG.

A great point guard is unselfish and pass-first, but he's a threat to score if the defense slacks-off. With a great point guard, the remainder of the offense works to get open because they know he'll get them the rock. Our present "true" point guards are not a threat to score. And the opposing D can clog the paint in the half-court. And when the ball is tossed down low, there's no threat of kicking it back to the PG for a 3. That was a real strength/threat of Abreu. He kept the D honest.

You contend that our roster has no high-major talent. True. But we are as loaded and anyone with high mid-major talent. Except at point guard. That is hurting us against teams like VCU and St Marys. Teams we should not be getting rolled by 20 - 40 points as we complete decade #1 of the KD Era.

How would I address this issue?

I make Diggs THE point guard, immediately. Give him 25...maybe even 30 minutes per game exclusively at the point. Diggs is our best ball handler, and he is a legit threat to drain the three if left open. He's also our most creative passer. What needs to change is - Diggs needs to put his wing mentality in the garbage can for the remainder of the season. He can't be the isolation guy that relies on dribble-penetration so heavily. There, he simply turns the ball over too much. Every time down the court he needs to think "pass first." If he can embrace that mentality, things will open up everywhere.

The crappy Boston Celtics, who jettisoned hall of famers Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett, have now won 4 straight. They beat Miami, in Miami, a couple nights ago. They are winning because Brad Stevens handed the point guard reins to Jordan Crawford, a guy with a career reputation as an out-of-control gunner But Stevens recognized he was the team's best passer. He's longer than most point guards. And his ability to drain an open outside look keeps the opposing team's D honest. [side Note - I realize most of you don't follow the Celtics, but if you click on the link and read the embedded column from a Zips/Abreu/Diggs point of view, I think the correlation between that, and the Celtics/Rondo/Crawford situation makes it applicable and interesting.]

The Zips need Diggs as their #1 point guard. Not as a "hobby," but as his primary position. Diggs needs to eschew a few shots per game in lieu a few assists, for the overall team good. There is no other PG option with the upside such a move offers.

Wow! Talk about hitting the panic button early! In no way, shape or form would I move QD to the point. To say I completely disagree with this post is an understatement.

While I clearly see we are struggling at the point, to compare NE to AA at this point is unfair. Even Alex struggled early on.

Yes, Q is a capable passer. But to say he can handle the ball under duress better than Evans is a stretch. In fact, even CB can handle the ball on the perimeter. What we need is a distributor in the paint and no way do I see Q doing this effectively after having to handle the ball through pressure for 20-30 seconds every possession. Keep him on the wing making passes, drives or shots. Do not make him the point.

Here is what I do. Q, Tree and Harney (if healthy) need to understand that they need to be ready to play 30 minutes a game. We have plenty of time over the next month to get in shape if need be. Like football, the motto needs to be -Faster, Faster, Faster.

Evans needs to be named the point guard for the remaining non-conference schedule. In fact he needs to understand that he will play the first nine minutes of each half, take a 2 minute break and then be back in. So, do not pick up any perimeter touch fouls. CB gets 4 minutes per game.

DI4 needs to move to CB on the football team. (not my idea, but I agree with it) Wasting seven precious minutes per game is an issue. It’s like wasting second half timeouts in football. Maddening… Pat, Big Dog, Kwan, Reggie and Jake get the other minutes. If Gladden or Jackson can help win even one game, then play them. We need to win now!

Faster, faster, faster.

[Blue & Gold]

CB gets 4 minutes per game.

That sounds about right to me.

I think Nyles is going to be okay.

I had a dream last night that while at the Diamond head Classic, Zips wide receiver Imani Davis was named the Zips starting PG.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Wow! Talk about hitting the panic button early! In no way, shape or form would I move QD to the point. To say I completely disagree with this post is an understatement.

Man...the Celtics win a couple games and the Laker fans go off the deep end!

If Evans can handle the point, I'm all for it. But thus far I don't see it happening. Very early in the voting, but the first precincts are reporting he has a lot of work to do to be a real point. And our up-front schedule is pretty tough.

We need to win now!

I am with you, brother! But I see a pass-first Diggs at PG as our best chance to make any noise in Hawai'i.

[zippy5]

Q needs the majority of the 1 minutes. Hate to rip on our players, but it's like we're a man down with CB on the court. Plays great defense, but it's hard to score 4 on 5.

[skip-zip]

Let me consolidate a few of my previous thoughts on this issue here...

First, I don't see the coaches abandoning the development of their inexperienced point guards after a couple of games. That would shock me. This isn't the first time that young players needed a lot of work. They aren't going to make any dramatic changes in philosophy after a couple of games.

Secondly, adding full-court ball handling to Quincy's plate would be a huge mistake. It would seriously diminish his ability to contribute the other things he does best. Plus, significantly turning those duties over to someone who is at the end of his career would be a bad investment for the near future of the program.

If the first two games are any indication, it sure looks like Evans has emerged as the most trusted person to fulfill that role, with Carmelo in secondary duty. Whichever one becomes the primary option, I just hope it all works out. At least we have two possible solutions.

[Dr Z]

@The Hip Zip, you make a good point. A complaint in the past about Coach Dambrot is that he tries to teach too many plays. The reality is that the Zips try to set up a number of different plays on each possession, but break them off when the defense counters. It may look like helter skelter to fans who haven't watched the Zips learning and practicing all the different plays. But they're searching for the play that takes advantage of what the defense is least prepared for. Sometimes they run out of time and have to jack up a quick one. When I watch other teams play I see this happen several times in every game, so it's not just the Zips. I think this will improve as the season goes on and all the players become more comfortable with their roles and understand what their teammates are going to be doing.

Here is the explanation I recieved from the staff back in Feb 2010 on what type of offense KD likes to run

Coach Dambrot runs a combination of different offenses. First he runs a fast break similar to NC which tries to get the ball inside. From there on ball reversal we screen down and the get into baseline runner, with our 4/5 men on blocks and a player running off their screens. If the backside post helps we flush hi for a hi/lo look. We can sprint into on ball screens and either pick and pop or pick and roll. We run a lot of quick hitters always looking to get the ball inside and then play out of the post. Depending on what the defense does will determine which cut we run. We have set plays to isolate individuals in the post, sets designed to shoot the 3 and sets designed to drive the ball. We can run a set that is motion offense, we can spread the floor and use the ball screen to create total defensive rotations. We run a lot of different things to utilize our personnel. Hope this gives you a quick overview of our offense.

PS Why are Zip fans always debating who plays the point? Remember the great AA vs McNees debate in 2011? Zipgal killed it that year.

[Blue & Gold]

PG is a problem. But I'd just remind everyone that we were only down 3 with 12-minutes to play. It was somewhere around 5:00 in the morning EST. Our shooters obviously had no legs. I believe we only made 2 3-point shots all game while the 3 is a big part of our offense. I'd love to play St. Mary's again at a decent hour & on a neutral floor.

[Dave in Green]

... PS Why are Zip fans always debating who plays the point? ...

Why are football fans always debating who plays QB unless they have a consistent proven winner at the position? It goes with the territory. In any case, I agree with those who say we fans shouldn't panic, and I know that Coach Dambrot isn't going to panic. The point (love that word) is to be prepared for the worst so that you don't have to panic if it happens. In this case, the worst would be that neither Nyles nor Melo develops into a quality primary PG after being given reasonable opportunities to do so during the first half of the season. In that case, a judgment will have to be made if Q at the point is the best primary option for the second half of the season going into the all-important tournaments. We'll continue to talk about it here because that's what fans do -- speculate about what's best for the team. We all want that but just don't always agree on the best way to get there.