UA to Renovate the JAR

[LZIp]

Exactly. Deficit spend to eternity. It's the American Way.

Not what I said or was implying at all. I just don't get caught up in crying for investing in a certain sport instead of "my" sport because I have some connection to the program or the other sport sucks. Just something that bothers me about the dynamic of this site. I root for all programs. Where's all the complaining about the on campus tennis courts just constructed? How much revenue has tennis ever brought into the U?

[K92]

BTW - the person who said they didn't know who Middle Tennessee was…………..They are in Conference USA - the conference some aspire to

Yeah, but that was Joe Akron who didn't know who MTSU was. I've never met Joe but I don't think he's very bright.

[Dave in Green]

... If you had to go to the board and justify spending 70,80,90, 100 million dollars on a new arena…..

It was the City of Akron that proposed building a $70+ million arena/entertainment complex. No one has suggested that UA spend that much money on its own. What has been suggested is that a $50 million new arena might make more economic sense in the long run than a $38 million JAR renovation.

[K92]

Not what I said or was implying at all. I just don't get caught up in crying for investing in a certain sport instead of "my" sport because I have some connection to the program or the other sport sucks. Just something that bothers me about the dynamic of this site. I root for all programs. Where's all the complaining about the on campus tennis courts just constructed? How much revenue has tennis ever brought into the U?

I know what you're saying. Just being a smart ass.

[K92]

38 mil. 50 mil. 70mil. Whatever. No more money should be spent on facilities until we are heading to a new conference.

[zippy5]

Hypothetical question: How many million would you spend to get out of the MAC?

All of the millions

[LZIp]

38 mil. 50 mil. 70mil. Whatever. No more money should be spent on facilities until we are heading to a new conference.

I think this is a pretty good point. If the bball program (or athletic department/president/etc), is content with where we are, why invest additional money? If KD is content with Akron and 20 win seasons and scheduling cupcakes every year, and losing in the 1st round of whatever tournament they are in, what's the point?

I'm all for spending money if it's done with forward thinking in mind and makes sense.

[Dave in Green]

... St. Mary's "arena" only holds 3500. ...

St. Mary's is an interesting case. Let's compare to UA:

Student population -- 4,200 vs. 27,000 at UA

City population -- 16,000 vs. 200,000 for Akron

Like the Zips, the Gaels only reach capacity at a few conference home games each season.

St. Mary's renovation plan for McKeon Pavilion is to add 1,000 seats.

[Balsy]

I'd be willing to bet that St. Mary's also has a considerably more passionate/involved alumni base.

It starts with alumni.

[K92]

I'd be willing to bet that St. Mary's also has a considerably more passionate/involved alumni base.

It starts with alumni.

Yep. I'd be willing to bet the average St. M grad doesn't affiliate themself with Stanford, Cal, USC or UCLA. The average Akron alum is balls deep on a scarlet & grey dong.

[Zip_ME87]

Using soccer CROWDS as an example? I personally never said soccer was easy to draw a crowd…what I said was I don't consider getting 3-4K people together is much of a crowd for anything.

Let me ask it to you this way. If you had to go to the board and justify spending 70,80,90, 100 million dollars on a new arena…..what examples would you use to show that it was a good investment? Our successful soccer program that averaged 3,500 people? We built a brand new football stadium and started attracting WVU and OSU? Cleveland State built a new basketball season and it is packed?

BTW - the person who said they didn't know who Middle Tennessee was…………..They are in Conference USA - the conference some aspire to

I used soccer crowds as an example of being able to draw crowds. Under Porter, soccer drew 3x or more than it did previously because of winning against top opponents. My point was that winning in football or basketball against good competition could have samilar results.

As far as spending 70, 80, 90 ... milion, I said to fund it from multiple sources and market it differently. One problem with CSU's Wolstein Center (besides the fact that its design sucks) is the Q is just a few blocks away. There would be no such competition in Akron.

As far as tOSU or WVU coming to a decent arena if we had one...drawing them for basketball is different than football. If Akron fans didn't fill our arena for a game vs tOSU, NEO tOSU fans would, for example. You're not going to get a football team that plays in front of 100k+ at home to come to our 25k+ stadium to play a team with no winning tradition.

I don't get your MTSU comment. I know who the f MTSU is and that they are a good opponent. One MTSU (and perhaps a Marshall) does not make a good OoC schedule at the JAR or any type of interesting season for anyone other than die hard Zip fans.

[Dave in Green]

Rather than basing everything on wild speculation and potentially getting off track, let's go back and look at some specific statements in the ABJ interview with Dr. Scarborough that give clear indications of what's likely to happen and why:

“Right now, the JAR is in need of some amount of renovation just to keep the experience at an acceptable level,” Scarborough said.

This is important because it's UA's President publicly acknowledging he recognizes an obvious need for at least some renovation, which means it's likely to happen.

The work would be done in phases, with the first portion potentially included in the next school budget.

The fact that the first stage could be included in the next school budget indicates the level of urgency Dr. Scarborough assigns to at least minimum upgrades for the JAR. The work being done in phases fits in with the next comment.

Upgrades are needed even if the community builds an arena downtown, Scarborough added.

This likely means that the early phases of renovation would be focused on improvements the building will need regardless of whether or not a new arena is built. This buys time for various new arena proposals to be made, whether by UA alone or along with the city and county. That also means the initial renovation will be made independently of whether UA remains in the MAC or finds a way into a more prestigious conference where a larger capacity arena would be required.

What we don't know are what the individual renovation phases involve and what each will cost. I think it's likely the early phases would represent only a fraction of the proposed $38 million maximum renovation, which would not be necessary if a new arena were to be approved. Assuming there are several phases over several years, that leaves plenty of time for stuff to happen that would affect the outcome.

Finally, it's encouraging that Dr. Scarborough personally cares enough about college sports that he includes it in his personal biography:

In his free time, he enjoys reading, golf, tennis, college sports and family activities.

[skip-zip]

The average Akron alum is balls deep on a scarlet & grey dong.

Now you just gave me a great laugh while reading about a very serious topic to me. I needed that. And you're so right.

[skip-zip]

If that was the case, where were the crowds during the Lolla years. The crowds came because Akron could defeat top teams and actually compete for something other than a weenie MAC Championship.

Right on the money. Basketball will need to do the same thing that soccer did, to some extent...beat some people who matter. Without a good business/alumni donor base, and no big-time single donor in our midst, this would be the only other way to raise our profile, change how people view us as a program, and grow.

[a-zip]

I used soccer crowds as an example of being able to draw crowds. Under Porter, soccer drew 3x or more than it did previously because of winning against top opponents. My point was that winning in football or basketball against good competition could have samilar results.

As far as spending 70, 80, 90 ... milion, I said to fund it from multiple sources and market it differently. One problem with CSU's Wolstein Center (besides the fact that its design sucks) is the Q is just a few blocks away. There would be no such competition in Akron.

As far as tOSU or WVU coming to a decent arena if we had one...drawing them for basketball is different than football. If Akron fans didn't fill our arena for a game vs tOSU, NEO tOSU fans would, for example. You're not going to get a football team that plays in front of 100k+ at home to come to our 25k+ stadium to play a team with no winning tradition.

I don't get your MTSU comment. I know who the f MTSU is and that they are a good opponent. One MTSU (and perhaps a Marshall) does not make a good OoC schedule at the JAR or any type of interesting season for anyone other than die hard Zip fans.

Comparing soccer to football or basketball is apples to oranges. The numbers at a soccer game are so low, to use them as an example is silly to me. The cost to build a nice soccer facility vs a basketball arena vs a football stadium are not comparable. The contract to keep the top head soccer coach in the country is dwarfed even an assistant job at a BCS football or basketball team. The number of people required to fill a soccer stadium is minuscule.

BTW - when Lolla was our coach - we were consistently ranked in the top 10 (even #1 for a while), consistently beating top teams, consistently winning conference championships and consistently going to post season. Not much difference between he and Porter except for the national championship.

My point on MTSU is they are in a conference we aspire to. They are one of the top basketball teams in the conference we aspire to and when we played them we did not have more than 3000 people at the game. Do you think Conference USA is taking notes? We have had some marquise wins under Dambrot - this year we beat an SEC and PAC 10 team.

My point is the same as many others have voiced. Nobody give a s%&t. This state is balls deep in scarlet and grey - even local high school football teams out draw our football/basketball teams. If you look at the home/home numbers for us against Ohio U or Can't State, their attendance has been higher and we have won more games. I just don't get it.

[Zip_ME87]

Comparing soccer to football or basketball is apples to oranges. The numbers at a soccer game are so low, to use them as an example is silly to me. The cost to build a nice soccer facility vs a basketball arena vs a football stadium are not comparable. The contract to keep the top head soccer coach in the country is dwarfed even an assistant job at a BCS football or basketball team. The number of people required to fill a soccer stadium is minuscule.

BTW - when Lolla was our coach - we were consistently ranked in the top 10 (even #1 for a while), consistently beating top teams, consistently winning conference championships and consistently going to post season. Not much difference between he and Porter except for the national championship.

My point on MTSU is they are in a conference we aspire to. They are one of the top basketball teams in the conference we aspire to and when we played them we did not have more than 3000 people at the game. Do you think Conference USA is taking notes? We have had some marquise wins under Dambrot - this year we beat an SEC and PAC 10 team.

My point is the same as many others have voiced. Nobody give a s%&t. This state is balls deep in scarlet and grey - even local high school football teams out draw our football/basketball teams. If you look at the home/home numbers for us against Ohio U or Can't State, their attendance has been higher and we have won more games. I just don't get it.

Point was the 3x bump; not the actual numbers.

Taking a crap team from a crap conference to a better conference is still crap. It might be even worse, like in the Crawford and Hipsher years, if the Zips can't even compete for the conference championship.

Nobody gives a s%&t because the Zips haven't accomplished anything in football or basketball. In football, we went to one Bowl game, built a new stadium, and hired a know-nothing as head coach. Nice way to build excitement about your new facility...have absolutely the worst product possible on the field during its early seasons. TB really has his work cut out for him digging out of that hole. Getting blown out by 46 points by VCU in the NCAA Tourney last time we were there was a huge setback for basketball. Most fans only pay attention to March Madness. They don't give a s%&t about remember the teams you defeat in the regular season or the NIT. VCU had 50 points at the half. They could have scored ZERO (0) points in the 2nd half and still won. People, including alumni and students, are supposed to get excited just because the Zips were there. HaHaHa. Fat chance. A poopy post-season team in the MAC still stinks in a better conference; perhaps worse if that poopy team can never get an NCAA bid.

As far as Can't State and blOU drawing bigger crowds for basketball than the Zips, look no further than their student sections proximity to the court and the fact that they have both made runs in the NCAA Tourney (the part of the season about which fans do give a s%&t). You don't have to be a genius to get it.

[K92]

blOU. Thank you for introducing another moniker into my lexicon. I'm gonna use that.

[ROCK1]

Two MAC schools did substantial renovations to their basketball arenas in recent years, Central Michigan in 2010 and Toledo in 2008.

CMU spent about $22 million and their seating went from around 6,000 to 5,300. I've been there and it's really not that impressive. Certainly better than what they had. Maybe the original building limited what they could do.

http://www.cmuchippewas.com/facilities/mbb-facilities.html

Toledo spent $30 million and their seating went from 9,000 to 7,300. Much nicer building with a center-hung video board, suites, loges, weight room, practice facility, store etc.

http://www.utrockets.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=18000&ATCLID=1255492&DB_OEM_ID=18000

[skip-zip]

Toledo spent $30 million and their seating went from 9,000 to 7,300. Much nicer building with a center-hung video board, suites, loges, weight room, practice facility, store etc.

http://www.utrockets.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=18000&ATCLID=1255492&DB_OEM_ID=18000

The Savage Arena renovations were outstanding.

Unfortunately for us, we are not in a position to reduce our seating capacity, and still have 7,300 seats. Luxury boxes would even further complicate the problem. This goes all the way back to building the place too small to begin with, while adding the classroom wing to satisfy the grant requirements.

[Dave in Green]

It's interesting to look at how general trends in college basketball attendance and local interest in specific college programs affect arena sizing. From the modest research I've done, there was an era when many facilities that were originally built too small were expanded followed by the more recent era of downsizing facilities to match generally falling attendance. Of course there are exceptions within the general trends with programs on the rise drawing more attendance even in times of generally falling attendance and programs on the decline drawing less attendance even in times of generally rising attendance.

Western Kentucky's E. A. Diddle Arena is a random example of the boom and bust of college basketball arena sizing as its capacity has greatly increased and decreased over the years with various redesigns for various reasons:

1963 - 8,500

1965 - 12,500

1970 - 13,508

1979 - 13,164

1980 - 12,370

1991 - 11,300

2002 - 7,381

2003 - 7,368

2005 - 7,326

The point here is that we're speculating on the optimum size for a Zips arena without really knowing what the situation will be 5 or 10 years from now. Aim too high and money is wasted on seating that will go unused. Aim too low and many fans will be shut out from being able to attend big games for lack of adequate capacity. Even if you size it just right for today, how will that work in a few years? Ultimately UA has to consider all the points being made here and more, including their vision for the future of the university as a whole. There's no easy solution due to all the variables.

[1981 grad]

Anyone that thinks a new arena will bring in more fans only has to look at the football stadium to realize that this is "fools gold". The thought back then was that better facilities, better football players, better record, and more people. After producing a terrible football team for 3 straight years with coach I, the football games are scarcely attended. Add a schedule with Tuesday night games, and it is a ghost town. A new arena will not increase attendance. I would bet the last 5 years the attendance was worse with the new stadium than when we played at the rubber bowl.

A couple of years ago the basketball team went up to students and asked them to attend the games. The word of mouth brought more students. KD has had a good basketball team on the floor and we have had good attendance the last 7 years. Having a good team will increase attendance. The winning streak a couple of years ago increased our attendance. The best way to increase our attendance is to put a great product on the floor. When you go to the movies, do you have a great time if the movie stinks but the theatre is brand new with state of the are seating? When our soccer team was great, attendance was great. When we became average, the attendance became average. If the team starts stinking, the attendance will stink even though we have great a great soccer field.

My renovation for the JAR would be better scoreboard, better sound system and better seating for general admission.

[Zip_ME87]

Anyone that thinks a new arena will bring in more fans only has to look at the football stadium to realize that this is "fools gold". The thought back then was that better facilities, better football players, better record, and more people. After producing a terrible football team for 3 straight years with coach I, the football games are scarcely attended. Add a schedule with Tuesday night games, and it is a ghost town. A new arena will not increase attendance. I would bet the last 5 years the attendance was worse with the new stadium than when we played at the rubber bowl.

A couple of years ago the basketball team went up to students and asked them to attend the games. The word of mouth brought more students. KD has had a good basketball team on the floor and we have had good attendance the last 7 years. Having a good team will increase attendance. The winning streak a couple of years ago increased our attendance. The best way to increase our attendance is to put a great product on the floor. When you go to the movies, do you have a great time if the movie stinks but the theatre is brand new with state of the are seating? When our soccer team was great, attendance was great. When we became average, the attendance became average. If the team starts stinking, the attendance will stink even though we have great a great soccer field.

My renovation for the JAR would be better scoreboard, better sound system and better seating for general admission.

Sorry, but there is a difference between football and basketball and their respective facilities. I keep pushing for the downtown arena idea because it doesn't have to be just UA's venue. It could be used for much more, and UA wouldn't have to foot the entire bill. It is also possible to attract better teams to come play in a better arena. WVU played at the Wolstein Center. Akron could offer them part of the gate if we had a decent size gate to offer. I'd play tOSU twice at their place for once at ours, but not once at the Q. It's very shortsighted to focus only on Zips Basketball.

I'd love to separate ourselves from the shortsightedness of those to our north. Morons in Cleveland had the opportunity to replace the mistake on the lake with an indoor football stadium, but shortsighted idiots prevailed and built an outdoor stadium on the same precious lake front property as the Depression-era former stadium. The stadium gets used a few times a year in addition to the Browns 10 games there. Had they built an indoor stadium, they could have hosted numerous events (Mens Final Four, potentially a Super Bowl like Detroit did, maybe a new Bowl game, other ...). Had they built it somewhere other than the lake front, they could have developed the lake front property like other cities with waterfronts have done.

[footballzip]

The U of A administration is going to do what they are going to do. They are not going to listen to a bunch of blow hard - know it all's like myself and members of Zips Nation. I'm sure the 38 mil will give the 30 year old JAR a nice face lift. Why complain about it if it is inevitable. None of the money is coming out of our pockets. We will always be a mid - major program as long as we are in the MAC, which I don't think we will be leaving for the powerful C-USA, another mid - major conference. The downtown arena may never happen, so in the mean time renovate the JAR. Maybe a artist rendition on what they want to do would be helpful. Until we see what the JAR will look like after the renovation, we may be surprised how nice it may turnout. We only avg 3-4k at the JAR with a winning program, only sellout being Cant game. If we lose a few seats to gain chair backs by getting rid of the wooden bleachers would really be great.

[ZippyRulz]

To me it sounds like there is now an urgency/readiness to do what is possible with basketball facilities, and incremental upgrades to the JAR is what's possible at present. It has been an issue/limitation all during Dambrot's tenure as coach but the Rubber Bowl was an even bigger issue and had to be addressed first. It also sounds like it is not meant to be the final long-term solution, since Dr. S. states in the article that upgrades are needed (wouldn't be wasted) even if it's only used for purposes other than basketball. Personally, I wouldn't care about a reduction in seating capacity; it would still be adequate for most games in the near-term and a scarcity of tickets for bigger games would actually create a little more buzz around the program and may also increase demand for season tix which would also be good for the program. I don't think attracting quality opponents depends on the number of seats as much as the amount of money they would get.

[zippyman23]

blah blah blah blah blah

You guys are so full of yourselves. A guilded turd (JAR) is still a turd (JAR) and stinks just as much as ever. Soccer is sooooo easy to draw crowds, big deal. eff u. If that was the case, where were the crowds during the Lolla years. The crowds came because Akron could defeat top teams and actually compete for something other than a weenie MAC Championship.

Renovate the JAR all you want. WVU won't come there. tOSU won't come there. What "big" program are you going to get to come to the dump JAR?

I convinced former alumni to give Zips Football a chance with the new Football Stadium. Problem was iCoach.They bought tickets for those 2 years and vowed not to return. I don't blame them. TB has done nothing yet to convince anyone to return from the abyss. His last name doesn't mean jack. Winning games, going to bowl games and winning them is what matters.

Beating up on Blufton and Malone and winning 20+ games/season against little sisters of the poor and the MAC doesn't draw disinterested students and alumni.

Go ahead, flush another $20M+ into guilding the turd JAR. Absolutely INSANE.

The attendance increase didn't come until 2009 when we were undefeated and rated #1 in the country. It's not going to be easy or even remotely possible for the basketball team to have that same type of success. Even multiple Sweet Sixteens were ignored when it comes to soccer, which were likely viewed the same as 20+ win basketball seasons.