Antwon Lillard

[zippyman23]

I wonder if the "whistle-swallowing" crowd feels the same way about the missed travel call against Can't?

Answer: Nope!

The initial "whistle-swallowing", although the same ref that made the technical call doesn't appear to be in position to make the call, was not calling #12 in blue for putting his hand on the back of the shooter. This easily could have been called an "and-1". Call the push, and no one questions his need to hang on the rim.

[Dave in Green]

I was wondering if anyone else noticed #12 trailing Lillard with his hand in his back to let him know he was there. Fearing the closely trailing defender was going to push him from behind was reason enough for Lillard to fear for his safety when he went up high and fast to the rim. Ultimately it was a pure judgment call by the ref, and the ref didn't see anything but what he mistook for Lillard "pulling himself up."

[Captain Kangaroo]

I wonder if the "whistle-swallowing" crowd feels the same way about the missed travel call against Can't?

Answer: Nope!

I can say with absolute certainty that you could not be more wrong.

Proof

[LZIp]

I can say with absolute certainty that you could not be more wrong.

Proof

You're the exception (and my post wasn't targeting you). My point is that there are posters on here now saying the ref should have swallowed the whistle when they had an opposite view during the Can't game.

[LZIp]

I was wondering if anyone else noticed #12 trailing Lillard with his hand in his back to let him know he was there. Fearing the closely trailing defender was going to push him from behind was reason enough for Lillard to fear for his safety when he went up high and fast to the rim. Ultimately it was a pure judgment call by the ref, and the ref didn't see anything but what he mistook for Lillard "pulling himself up."

There was no judgement to me made by the ref. Whether he pulled himself up or not is besides the point. He hung on the rim, and you aren't allowed doing that in HS (with very few exceptions, none the refs would have thought of in real time without watching the video 50 times), atleast in Ohio.

[Dave in Green]

There was no judgement to me made by the ref. Whether he pulled himself up or not is besides the point. He hung on the rim, and you aren't allowed doing that in HS (with very few exceptions, none the refs would have thought of in real time without watching the video 50 times), atleast in Ohio.

That's an interesting interpretation of Ohio HS officiating rules considering that earlier in this thread an Ohio HS official posted just the opposite:

It's up to the ref's interpretation, but as a high school ref myself, that's not a T in my eyes. Grabbing the rim doesn't make it a T. Hanging on the rim is allowed if done to prevent injury. He did put himself in that position by grabbing the rim, but whether he had reason to grab the rim or not isn't a factor in determining if it was T.

As for comparing this to the Can't game no-call travel, apples and oranges. Taking one too many steps without dribbling is a black-and-white rule, not a pure judgment call like whether hanging on the rim was done for showboating or safety concerns. When it comes to avoiding injury, the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the player.

[LZIp]

I don't see what zippyman was saying that is the opposite of me, besides maybe an opinion of it not being a T. Fact: You are not allowed hanging on the rim besides for very few exceptions (ie. to prevent injury). What was being debated was whether he pulled himself up or not, which is irrelevant. He swung his legs up so far that he kicked the basket support. I've never seen that happen in all of my years of playing/watching..and yes...even reffing basketball. Even Zeke's dunk, with all of 7ft and 240lbs of him, didn't generate enough momentum to kick the basket support. Nobody was under him or even around him. Why would the ref think it was to prevent injury?

[Dave in Green]

LZip, you said there was no judgment to be made whereas zippyman23 said "it's up to the ref's interpretation." You said that pulling himself up is irrelevant whereas the official made a point of saying that "he pulled himself up." You said nobody was even around Lillard when the video shows a defender running with him, reaching out and touching his back just as he was taking off. Lillard had to stay focused on the basket and had no way of knowing the defender behind him had put on the brakes at the last second. We've watched the video, read the quotes, gotten an opinion here from a HS ref and come to different conclusions. What a surprise on a sports forum.

[Blue & Gold]

Umm, anyway, I hope KD can somehow find a spot for Lillard. Next year we've already offered a few 2-guards including LePear Toles of Timken High School & Mitch Peterson from Walsh Jesuit. I've seen all three play & I'm a bit more impressed with Lillard than Peterson, or even Toles. Though I must confess I think Toles is a really good 2. I'd be amped if he would give KD a verbal commitment.

[zippy5]

I have no dog in the fight but no way should that be a T. Not 5 seconds in or 5 seconds left. Bad call

[LZIp]

LZip, you said there was no judgment to be made whereas zippyman23 said "it's up to the ref's interpretation." You said that pulling himself up is irrelevant whereas the official made a point of saying that "he pulled himself up." You said nobody was even around Lillard when the video shows a defender running with him, reaching out and touching his back just as he was taking off. Lillard had to stay focused on the basket and had no way of knowing the defender behind him had put on the brakes at the last second. We've watched the video, read the quotes, gotten an opinion here from a HS ref and come to different conclusions. What a surprise on a sports forum.

Last post on the subject just to clarify. I meant there is nothing to interpret regarding whether he pulled himself up or not, because it doesn't matter. The rule is whether or not he is allowed to hang on the rim, which he clearly did. Whether he did it for showboating/couldn't control it/ was afraid of injury is obviously up for interpretation. From my own personal opinion, and the high school ref who had the credentials to be in the state championship game (no offense zippyman- I appreciate the input), it was a technical .

[Dr Z]

Umm, anyway, I hope KD can somehow find a spot for Lillard.

His rim acrobatics are impressive, but how many threes is he able to hoist up in a game?

[zippy5]

Last post on the subject just to clarify. I meant there is nothing to interpret regarding whether he pulled himself up or not, because it doesn't matter. The rule is whether or not he is allowed to hang on the rim, which he clearly did. Whether he did it for showboating/couldn't control it/ was afraid of injury is obviously up for interpretation. From my own personal opinion, and the high school ref who had the credentials to be in the state championship game (no offense zippyman- I appreciate the input), it was a technical .

"A player can hang from the rim if he is protecting himself from injury if a player or players are underneath him. There were not any players underneath him, and he pulled himself up and swung excessively." Denny Morris, the Ohio High School Athletic Association's basketball director of official development, said in a statement.

Sounds like it does matter if he pulled himself up. They say they T'd him up for pulling himself up.

[Blue & Gold]

His rim acrobatics are impressive, but how many threes is he able to hoist up in a game?

Ha ha, I know KD & the Zips love the 3-ball. Lillard's got a consistent & smooth stroke from, I'd say, 3 feet behind the high school arc. If defenders didn't come out on him he'd not hesitate to stroke it. His release isn't as quick as LePear Toles', but Lillard has a nasty jab step that gets defenders on their heals (since he loves to drive the ball to the rim) & opens up space for his jumper. IMHO, LePear Toles is more of a pure shooter.

I don't know how Lillard's game will translate on the next level when he's consistently going to have to deal with a 6-8ish PF and a 6-10ish C inside protecting the rim. But he is a natural slasher who set the tone for the game against STVM by hitting two 3-balls & a layup in the first quarter.

[LZIp]

"A player can hang from the rim if he is protecting himself from injury if a player or players are underneath him. There were not any players underneath him, and he pulled himself up and swung excessively." Denny Morris, the Ohio High School Athletic Association's basketball director of official development, said in a statement.

Sounds like it does matter if he pulled himself up. They say they T'd him up for pulling himself up.

Congrats. Pulling himself up has nothing to do with the rule that you are not allowed to hang on the rim unless its clearly to prevent injury. Him swinging/pulling himself up is what made them think it was taunting. If he didn't and just hung on the rim instead with nobody underneath, it still would have been a T.

I'm having trouble seeing whats so hard to comprehend.

[zippy5]

I'm having trouble seeing whats so hard to comprehend.

We agree!

[Dave in Green]

And I'm having trouble seeing what's so hard to comprehend about the fact that it's physically impossible not to swing when grabbing the rim to protect oneself while driving the basket at full speed, and that it's physically impossible to pull oneself up on the rim without bending one's elbows.

But the conversation could go on forever because it's all based on personal interpretation and we all see things a little differently.

[Dave in Green]

As important as it is not to overlook the best local recruits, in recent years the Zips have been doing more national recruiting. Last season two of the three commits were from outside Ohio (Texas and Nevada), and it's the same this season with two of the three commits from North Carolina and Texas. So while we may be familiar with Ohio HS players, the Zips coaching staff is measuring them against HS players from across the country when deciding who to offer.

[Roo]

And I'm having trouble seeing what's so hard to comprehend about the fact that it's physically impossible not to swing when grabbing the rim to protect oneself while driving the basket at full speed, and that it's physically impossible to pull oneself up on the rim without bending one's elbows.

But the conversation could go on forever because it's all based on personal interpretation and we all see things a little differently.

It's real easy......DON'T GRAB THE RIM! If he laid it in, or flushed it, then this is a moot point. There is nothing about dunking that requires one to grab the rim. In all of my years of dunking and playing basketball, never did I grab the rim in that manner. Never in all of my years have I even witnessed somebody swing like that, to that extent, for no reason whatsoever.

It's up to the ref's interpretation, but as a high school ref myself, that's not a T in my eyes. Grabbing the rim doesn't make it a T. Hanging on the rim is allowed if done to prevent injury. He did put himself in that position by grabbing the rim, but whether he had reason to grab the rim or not isn't a factor in determining if it was T.

Im a ref myself. And I call that a T every single time. He chose to grab the rim, which he had no reason doing and by nature, everything after that had nothing to do with safety.

[GJGood]

As important as it is not to overlook the best local recruits, in recent years the Zips have been doing more national recruiting. Last season two of the three commits were from outside Ohio (Texas and Nevada), and it's the same this season with two of the three commits from North Carolina and Texas. So while we may be familiar with Ohio HS players, the Zips coaching staff is measuring them against HS players from across the country when deciding who to offer.

I'd love to see the Zips start to be more of a player in recruiting kids from Central Ohio. There is a lot of talent down here in my part of the state. The behemoth local university doesn't seem to pull a lot of players from their close-in back yard and although a number of area players go to MAC schools it isn't usually Akron (there are exceptions with Aaron Jackson, Nate Linhart, and the McKnights come to mind).