Cleveland State

[wadszip]

Thing now get real from here out, starting with the opener against our OOC rival from up I77 (and the school I actually grew up rooting for before I went to the light and became a Zip. Now, I love beating them nearly as much as beating Can't).

Anyway, Cleveland State is a cautionary tale, IMO, to what happens when you begin to recruit too well at the Mid-Major level. Cleveland State "should" have a three headed monster in Bryn Forbes, Trey Lewis and Anton Grady. Instead, they have nothing but question marks.

Forbes, after a solid Sophomore season at CSU, transferred to Michigan State, where he was granted a hardship and played right away last year, and was a rotation player for the Spartans, and should be in it again this year as a senior.

The blows kept coming as both Lewis and Grady, who are both hometown kids, took advantage of the graduate transfer rule and went to bigger programs this off season.

Lewis, who averaged 17 points a game last year, will likely replace another Cleveland kid, Terry Rozier, in Louisville's backcourt.

Grady, who statistically is one of the greatest players in the program's history, left to go to Wichita State. He was also a first team All-Horizon player who averaged about 16-8.

Talk about a kick in the you know where. Hopefully, Akron never has to feel that wrath. But something you have to keep in the back of your mind.

As for the current CSU team. It is one that Akron should roll. The top returner is Andre Yates, a solid guard from Dayton who transferred from Creighton. He'll have to pick up a lot of the slack from losing Lewis. After him in the backcourt, they have a couple other transfers who are eligible this year. The first is Myles Hamilton (Kenneesaw State). He was solid player at St. Edward in HS, and Im guessing will be in the rotation. They also got another transfer, Bobby Word, from Oral Roberts. Word put up pretty good numbers as a sophomore at ORU (8.5 points per game). Those three in the backcourt could be decent.

In the front court is where Akron has a huge advantage. The only returnee with much experience is 6-8 Vinny Zollo. And since he is from SE Ohio, I'll compare him to Jake Kretzer, though Jake is much more proven.

They have two 6-9 guys, but neither have much experience. Pat and Big Dog, and maybe Kwan, could feast down low.

It will also be interesting to see which team gets more out of their SVSM freshman. Akron, of course, has Josh Williams and CSU has Jibiri Blount (who also is a nice prospect). Since Josh is starting, Im gonna go with Akron there. Plus, while I think Blount can be good down the road, I think Josh is more college ready.

Barring any "typical Akron" early season shenanigans between now and next week, I think this will be a nice 15-plus point win against a team that still has a bit of name cache out in Can't.

[LoyalZIP]

Zips football plays at Miami at noon and Can't plays YSU right before the Zips play CSU. It should be a fun day!

[phil]

That sucks that CSU has lost 3 good players who have transferred to bigger programs. The only transfer I can remember of any significance from Akron was Bubba Walters who made a lateral transfer and went to Ohio University. Nick Dials transferred from Ohio State to Akron and Bubba may have lost some playing time. It was about 10 years ago. Akron has always benefitted from the transfer rule and Pat is a prime example. Maybe KD always playing 10 players and never developing a true star might be a good thing?

[LZIp]

Nice write up wadzip, very informative.

1981 - The big fat zero in the NCAA tournament wins makes me inclined to disagree.But for the record, I think Tree would have been that "star" last season. Too bad that it didn't work out. Zeke received similar praise (up there for the MAC POY), but while I think Zeke was more talented, he didn't have that mean streak to take over a game like Tree played with.

[wadszip]

That sucks that CSU has lost 3 good players who have transferred to bigger programs. The only transfer I can remember of any significance from Akron was Bubba Walters who made a lateral transfer and went to Ohio University. Nick Dials transferred from Ohio State to Akron and Bubba may have lost some playing time. It was about 10 years ago. Akron has always benefitted from the transfer rule and Pat is a prime example. Maybe KD always playing 10 players and never developing a true star might be a good thing?

I do think not ever relying on a star has helped so far against having a grad transfer. But the grad transfer provision is still very new (last four or five years) and you best believe high majors will continue to try to use it to get immediate help.

It would be interesting to see how many mid majors lost players due to the provision in recent years. I believe Seth Curry (Steph's little brother) used it to go from Davidson to Duke a couple of years ago. Maybe I'll try to look it up.

Overall, I don't have a problem with the rule (Akron's football program has been one of the biggest examples of using the exemption). But in basketball, it will likely benefit the bigger schools more than the mid majors. But I think KD has built enough of a culture here where Akron isn't automatically going to get raided, if say Jimond Ivey blows up for the next three years and has "options". KD is loyal to UA and I think that rubs off on the players.

[wadszip]

Nice write up wadzip, very informative.

1981 - The big fat zero in the NCAA tournament wins makes me inclined to disagree.But for the record, I think Tree would have been that "star" last season. Too bad that it didn't work out. Zeke received similar praise (up there for the MAC POY), but while I think Zeke was more talented, he didn't have that mean streak to take over a game like Tree played with.

I agree, Tree would have been KD's first "star". I really thought he was in line for an 18-10 season and potential MAC POY. It's a shame he didn't get to finish his career over what was a minor incident. But he had a checkered past, so I don't blame UA for taking its stand. Oh well, another in a long line of what could have been.

But I'm extremely high on the future of the program. The past, well, its just the growing pains that schools like Akron have to deal with. Despite all the setbacks, KD keeps winning and now looks like he has a program on the cusp of being a true MM player.

Edited November 7, 2015 by wadszip

[morris buttermaker]

That sucks that CSU has lost 3 good players who have transferred to bigger programs. The only transfer I can remember of any significance from Akron was Bubba Walters who made a lateral transfer and went to Ohio University. Nick Dials transferred from Ohio State to Akron and Bubba may have lost some playing time. It was about 10 years ago. Akron has always benefitted from the transfer rule and Pat is a prime example. Maybe KD always playing 10 players and never developing a true star might be a good thing?

Anthony Buford would be the "best" transfer to leave Akron -for Cincy.... Unfortunately he turned out to be a crook and may still be in jail

[skip-zip]

Yes, losing Buford would absolutely be one of the biggest losses to transfer, ever. He ended up starting for Huggy at Cincinnati, and playing in a Final 4.

Stars?

Romeo still stands as Akron's only ever Player of the Year in the MAC. Boyce won the same award in the OVC days. Tree likely would have equaled that. McLaughlin likely would have done the same, if we were not playing as an Independent by his upper-classman years.

A few others have been first team MAC, etc., but nothing close to what these players achieved.

[zippy5]

"recruit too well".... lol

[wadszip]

"recruit too well".... lol

Not sure what's so funny? Cleveland State recruited three kids who now are all at top 25 programs due to their play at CSU. Actually, Lewis began at Penn State, but was a CSU target out of HS, hence why he transferred there after his freshmen year.

Edited November 8, 2015 by wadszip

[ace]

I certainly wouldn't say that CSU "recruits too well", they just seem to have a program culture that is conducive to transfers. I guarantee you that if Grady, Forbes, and Lewis were at Akron they would not have all transferred. If over-recruiting was a common phenomenon at the mid-major level then programs like Gonzaga, Wichita St., etc. wouldn't exist. Schools should recruit the best players possible, but you have to win with them. Great players on mediocre mid-major teams without that positive culture is a formula for transfers.

But anyways, this game should be easy for the Zips. Kenpom has CSU 222nd to start the year and they were picked by the media towards the bottom of the Horizon. That being said, we have to come ready to play as you never know what could happen, especially in a local rivalry.

[zippyman23]

I believe Seth Curry (Steph's little brother) used it to go from Davidson to Duke a couple of years ago. Maybe I'll try to look it up.

Seth transferred from Liberty to Duke after his Freshman year.

Edited November 9, 2015 by zippyman23

[wadszip]

I certainly wouldn't say that CSU "recruits too well", they just seem to have a program culture that is conducive to transfers. I guarantee you that if Grady, Forbes, and Lewis were at Akron they would not have all transferred. If over-recruiting was a common phenomenon at the mid-major level then programs like Gonzaga, Wichita St., etc. wouldn't exist. Schools should recruit the best players possible, but you have to win with them. Great players on mediocre mid-major teams without that positive culture is a formula for transfers.

But anyways, this game should be easy for the Zips. Kenpom has CSU 222nd to start the year and they were picked by the media towards the bottom of the Horizon. That being said, we have to come ready to play as you never know what could happen, especially in a local rivalry.

I agree, this is a game Akron should roll.

I will kind of agree that Cleveland State, overall, hasn't recruited " too well", because if that was the case, they would have studs waiting to replace the three players they have lost. Who knows, maybe they do, but that is something that will be found out down the road.

It may just unlucky that three of the best kids they've gotten the past four years have left.

But that doesn't change that it is easier for high majors to poach moving forward. I don't think Gonzaga or Wichita apply, considering we are still at the infancy of the grad transfer rule.

Of course Gonzaga isn't going to lose anybody. They've essentially been a high major for the past 10 years, well before the grad transfer rules took effect.

While Wichita State may be closer to CSU (or Akron). It's still light years ahead when you look at the program's history. WSU has two final fours, four elite eights and six Sweet 16s, spanning decades. They also draw 10,000 plus a game. They are much more a high major program, especially since Gregg Marshall really revived it, than Akron or CSU will be in the foreseeable future. You're talking multiple runs in the NCAA tournament over the next 5-10 just to get close.

And since Grady, after three productive years at CSU, decided to leave there for WSU shows that the Shockers are considered a step up.

What I'm saying is you can't use established mid-majors as the barometer of the grad transfer effect. You have to look at schools like CSU and Akron (schools with some success, who have players teams may want, but programs that arent established enough on the national stage, before we can really tell how much the grad transfer rule is hurting those programs.)

So far, it has really hurt CSU (not even counting Forbes). Akron is an unknown, but this team's entire young backcourt looks to have the potential of being sought after down the road. I do agree KD has built a culture where it will be tough to lure anybody away, but we just don't know.

Really, I'm not worried because I think this group, especially the youngsters, have a chance at doing some program-changing things. But you never know. I'm sure CSU thought the same two years ago when they had Forbes, Lewis and Grady "locked up" for two more years.

BTW, even if Akron does get poached, you still have to go after the best players possible. No way am I advocated they step back recruiting because down the road a guy may transfer. In fact, I had been a harsh critic of KD in the past for not going the BPA available rout. The program (and winning and stability has made it easier) has been getting a better brand of players the past four or five years.

Edited November 9, 2015 by wadszip

[wadszip]

Seth transferred from Liberty to Duke after his Freshman year.

Thanks. I knew he transferred, but wasn't sure of the details. Definitely not a grad raid. But he was around the same period where, even if it was, the early years of the rule.

[ace]

I agree, this is a game Akron should roll.

I will kind of agree that Cleveland State, overall, hasn't recruited " too well", because if that was the case, they would have studs waiting to replace the three players they have lost. Who knows, maybe they do, but that is something that will be found out down the road.

It may just unlucky that three of the best kids they've gotten the past four years have left.

But that doesn't change that it is easier for high majors to poach moving forward. I don't think Gonzaga or Wichita apply, considering we are still at the infancy of the grad transfer rule.

Of course Gonzaga isn't going to lose anybody. They've essentially been a high major for the past 10 years, well before the grad transfer rules took effect.

While Wichita State may be closer to CSU (or Akron). It's still light years ahead when you look at the program's history. WSU has two final fours, four elite eights and six Sweet 16s, spanning decades. They also draw 10,000 plus a game. They are much more a high major program, especially since Gregg Marshall really revived it, than Akron or CSU will be in the foreseeable future. You're talking multiple runs in the NCAA tournament over the next 5-10 just to get close.

And since Grady, after three productive years at CSU, decided to leave there for WSU shows that the Shockers are considered a step up.

What I'm saying is you can't use established mid-majors as the barometer of the grad transfer effect. You have to look at schools like CSU and Akron (schools with some success, who have players teams may want, but programs that arent established enough on the national stage, before we can really tell how much the grad transfer rule is hurting those programs.)

So far, it has really hurt CSU (not even counting Forbes). Akron is an unknown, but this team's entire young backcourt looks to have the potential of being sought after down the road. I do agree KD has built a culture where it will be tough to lure anybody away, but we just don't know.

Really, I'm not worried because I think this group, especially the youngsters, have a chance at doing some program-changing things. But you never know. I'm sure CSU thought the same two years ago when they had Forbes, Lewis and Grady "locked up" for two more years.

BTW, even if Akron does get poached, you still have to go after the best players possible. No way am I advocated they step back recruiting because down the road a guy may transfer. In fact, I had been a harsh critic of KD in the past for not going the BPA available rout. The program (and winning and stability has made it easier) has been getting a better brand of players the past four or five years.

I just mean that schools like WSU or Gonzaga became who they are because they brought in those high-major caliber players who stuck around and built the program. Whereas CSU, when they do snag some high-major quality players, they bolt. Not that Gonzaga or WSU are on that same level now, but they used to be at least somewhat comparable. Although, I agree, the prevalence of transfers then is nowhere near what it is now.

[LZIp]

I think you're making way too big of a deal regarding the whole grad transfer thing. Its really not that big in CBB to my knowledge. Its more prevalent in football (look no further than our team). However, I do think the transfer rules in general for CBB are a joke. The "hardship" waivers seem like they are given out like candy. Remember that's how Pat was able to play immediately (though he was certainly worthy of the waiver.

Edit: I took a look and it actually looks like the NCAA did away with the hardship waiver earlier this year. It still doesn't seem like the grad transfer rule is that big of a deal in CBB, although it certainly affected CSU. wadzip seems more in the know than me, so I'd like some examples if you have them. I don't mind the grad transfer rule, however. If a player has graduated and still has eligibility, good for them.

Edited November 9, 2015 by LZip

[Dr Z]

Looking forward to watching Pat work the paint Saturday night. Hey, he changed his number this year.

Jake Kretzer passes to Pat Forsythe at last year's MAC Tournament. —©Photo by Dr Z

Edited November 10, 2015 by Dr Z

[LoyalZIP]

Think we'll wear purple?

[The Hip Zip]

First off, I love the idea of this all Ohio doubleheader. It's a great idea but not wild about it being played in the crappiest gym in the MAC. Playing in CSU's Wolstein or the Q would have been much, much better.

I watch a lot of Horizon hoops so I am interested in seeing this years edition of the Vikes. They lost a pretty darn good backcourt, Lee and Lewis to graduation but Yates can shoot it. CSU is young and is probably a year or two away from returning into serious contenders in the Horizon.

We should have a nice advantage in the paint so hope the offense runs regularly through Pat. Fearless predictions: Zips by 17 and Gary Waters will be the best dressed man in the MAC Center.

[K92]

First off, I love the idea of this all Ohio doubleheader. It's a great idea but not wild about it being played in the crappiest gym in the MAC. Playing in CSU's Wolstein or the Q would have been much, much better.

I watch a lot of Horizon hoops so I am interested in seeing this years edition of the Vikes. They lost a pretty darn good backcourt, Lee and Lewis to graduation but Yates can shoot it. CSU is young and is probably a year or two away from returning into serious contenders in the Horizon.

We should have a nice advantage in the paint so hope the offense runs regularly through Pat. Fearless predictions: Zips by 17 and Gary Waters will be the best dressed man in the MAC Center.

Glad to see you back, THZ. I will have a hard time accepting you as Jared after getting used to you as Iggy and Boehner.

[The Hip Zip]

LOL..... thanks Keener

[The Hip Zip]

from Elton and Cleveland.com

Link to full story

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The last private scrimmage is in the books for the Cleveland State men's basketball team and the opener is just days away, against Akron in the second game of the Coaches vs. Cancer doubleheader Saturday at Can't State's M.A.C. Center. Can't State plays Youngstown State in the first game at 7 p.m. When asked if the young Vikings are ready, coach Gary Waters was pretty succinct. "We have to be,'' he said. "You and I both know this is Akron's year. What I want to see is how we compete. Just play basketball." The Vikings, with five freshmen and four sophomores, are definitely a young group. But following the scrimmage with Notre Dame College, Waters said, "that scrimmage told me a lot."I like how we press,'' he said of the Vikings, who are expected return to 40 minutes of full court defense. "I really didn't know if I had that one defensive stopper on the perimeter, but I think we do. Terrell Hales (6-4, sophomore guard) is going to be a very, very good defender."

Edit: Please don't cut and paste entire articles in ZN. We would like to see writers of articles that interest ZN members receive the proper amount of attention. Thank you.

Edited November 12, 2015 by Dr Z

[ZachTheZip]

40 minutes of Full Court press. It will be interesting to see how Akron handles that. Maybe play a lot of 2-Center lineups to pass it right over the defense? We're athletic enough as a team to handle it.

[LZIp]

I dont want the ball in my Centers' hand during a press. I want the ball in a ball handler's hands. I agree we should have no problem with it, unlike our tourney games vs VCU.

[mes102]

Does UA have any tickets left for Saturday? Is it sold out? Just wondering if taking the 45-55 min trip to Akron for a ticket will be productive or a waste of time.