Assessing Coach Arth (and his staff)

[kreed5120]

20 hours ago, Lee Adams said:

Football gets $1.5 million for EACH sacrifice game? Ummm. What did it get for the South Carolina game? Not sure.

We got $1.3 million from South Carolina. 

[ZipsVoice]

10 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

Missing the point. We are still paying him, we should be able to demand he work for us in the position we are paying him for.

What don't you understand about the word "terminated"?  When a contract is terminated, but receiving compensation due to a contractual arrangement, you still NO LONGER WORK FOR THE EMPLOYER!  Talk about missing the point.  The position we are paying him for is to NOT be our head coach.  Maybe too many helmet-to-helmet blows in your past 71.

[akronzips71]

Do you have a copy of the contract? We would like to see it.

[ZipsVoice]

Oh yeah, I'm sure our lawyers put a clause in the contract that says "If we come back and  ask pretty-please with sprinkles on top will you be our knight in shining armor and ride back into Akron and post another glorious sub-500 season...."  You are truly delusional, we don't need to see a copy of the contract, if there was anything like you are raving about doing, I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now...happens all the time in NCAA football, doesn't it?  Make someone come back and "earn" the money they are being paid to NOT coach a team....tell me once...ONCE...when that has ever happened?

[akronzips71]

So in other words you have not seen the contract and have no idea whether this is an option.

[clarkwgriswold]

"It takes a village" to build a team this bad.  It's not just one factor.  The team started to crumble under Bowden and he failed to recruit adequately;  the search by the AD was poorly done;  the administration has not made the program a priority; the new staff was not prepared for the difficult transition; and the community shows little or no support.  At the end of the day, those factors have combined for failure.  Miserable failure.  To this point, it does not appear the staff had been up to the task, but much more has gone into this abomination than just the perceived shortcomings of the current staff.

 

Marshal through.  Fight to keep the best kids here.  Recruit well.  Bolster the staff.  Move on from here.

[UAZipster0305]

5 hours ago, ZipsVoice said:

What don't you understand about the word "terminated"?  When a contract is terminated, but receiving compensation due to a contractual arrangement, you still NO LONGER WORK FOR THE EMPLOYER!  Talk about missing the point.  The position we are paying him for is to NOT be our head coach.  Maybe too many helmet-to-helmet blows in your past 71.

 

I am not a lawyer, but to me "termination" implies a separation of parties. Meaning if this happened, we wouldn't still be on the hook for a salary.

 

I'd say he was "relieved of coaching duties". And if we are paying two coaches, we have the right to define that arrangement unless there is language in the contracts that is limiting. I'd love to see the contracts.

 

What akronzips71 proposes here is a creative potential solution. We are far beyond relying on precedent to get us out of this mess. If that requires swallowing some pride and ruffling some feathers, so be it.

 

In the context of the financial position of the University, the football program renders itself a terrible investment, particularly given it's recent performance, future trajectory, and options. Without serious, out-of -the-box thinking, we are looking at drastic changes that could justifiably include downsizing. I do not favor this outcome, so I welcome all ideas, regardless of how unusual...ideas which will likely not come from our administrators who do not have the courage or career flexibility to find a creative, viable solution.

[morris buttermaker]

5 hours ago, ZipsVoice said:

Oh yeah, I'm sure our lawyers put a clause in the contract that says "If we come back and  ask pretty-please with sprinkles on top will you be our knight in shining armor and ride back into Akron and post another glorious sub-500 season...."  You are truly delusional, we don't need to see a copy of the contract, if there was anything like you are raving about doing, I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now...happens all the time in NCAA football, doesn't it?  Make someone come back and "earn" the money they are being paid to NOT coach a team....tell me once...ONCE...when that has ever happened?

I believe in 1978 Billy Martin was fired and then came back in 1979 while still under contract with the NYY

[akronzips71]

21 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

I am not a lawyer, but to me "termination" implies a separation of parties. Meaning if this happened, we wouldn't still be on the hook for a salary.

 

I'd say he was "relieved of coaching duties". And if we are paying two coaches, we have the right to define that arrangement unless there is language in the contracts that is limiting. I'd love to see the contracts.

 

What akronzips71 proposes here is a creative potential solution. We are far beyond relying on precedent to get us out of this mess. If that requires swallowing some pride and ruffling some feathers, so be it.

 

In the context of the financial position of the University, the football program renders itself a terrible investment, particularly given it's recent performance, future trajectory, and options. Without serious, out-of -the-box thinking, we are looking at drastic changes that could justifiably include downsizing. I do not favor this outcome, so I welcome all ideas, regardless of how unusual...ideas which will likely not come from our administrators who do not have the courage or career flexibility to find a creative, viable solution.

I am not a lawyer either. But I did work in New York Supreme Court for 30 years.

I have no idea what the contract states. I am certain they could not require him to stay on campus as a janitor to get paid.

However, if he is not currently working as a head coach, under contract somewhere (that might require this contract to be bought out?), we could quite possibly ask him to come back, and stop paying if he refuses. We are entitled to mitigate our damages. That is pretty standard.

As far as Arth, if he refuses to be demoted and leaves, that is fine. Same money for us either way. At least Bowden, love him or hate him, gives hope to win some games.

[Lee Adams]

On 11/2/2019 at 4:36 PM, ZippyRulz said:

 

I'm guessing we could be in the top half of the GLIAC regularly -

 

https://gliac.prestosports.com/sports/fball/2019-20/standings1

 

OK

[Zipmeister]

2 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

I am not a lawyer either. But I did work in New York Supreme Court for 30 years.

I have no idea what the contract states. I am certain they could not require him to stay on campus as a janitor to get paid.

However, if he is not currently working as a head coach, under contract somewhere (that might require this contract to be bought out?), we could quite possibly ask him to come back, and stop paying if he refuses. We are entitled to mitigate our damages. That is pretty standard.

As far as Arth, if he refuses to be demoted and leaves, that is fine. Same money for us either way. At least Bowden, love him or hate him, gives hope to win some games.

 

Eew!!!  More lawyer talk; my nipples are getting hard.

You guys must be desperate for something to argue about.

Where have the good old days gone when a major bone of contention was new uniform designs?

[akronzips71]

In the good old days we won a game once in a while.

[zipsoutsider]

5 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

"It takes a village" to build a team this bad.  It's not just one factor.  The team started to crumble under Bowden and he failed to recruit adequately;  the search by the AD was poorly done;  the administration has not made the program a priority; the new staff was not prepared for the difficult transition; and the community shows little or no support.  At the end of the day, those factors have combined for failure.  Miserable failure.  To this point, it does not appear the staff had been up to the task, but much more has gone into this abomination than just the perceived shortcomings of the current staff.

 

Marshal through.  Fight to keep the best kids here.  Recruit well.  Bolster the staff.  Move on from here.

Starting to crumble is a bit of a stretch. They struggled through injuries at key positions but there is a vast difference between what we saw last year at the end compared to this year.  Not even in the same league. This team can do next to nothing, right and they are not improving. 

[clarkwgriswold]

32 minutes ago, zipsoutsider said:

Starting to crumble is a bit of a stretch. They struggled through injuries at key positions but there is a vast difference between what we saw last year at the end compared to this year.  Not even in the same league. This team can do next to nothing, right and they are not improving. 

 

Just....wow.  

[zipsoutsider]

18 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

 

Just....wow.  

Yeah, pretty shocking hoe off your assessment was.

[clarkwgriswold]

8 minutes ago, zipsoutsider said:

Yeah, pretty shocking hoe off your assessment was.

 

Do you really think things were going well with Bowden?  I get the Arth criticism, but damn, they couldn't even get lined up for a kickoff correctly.   I could understand a "things were better with Bowden" response, but to say things weren't going badly is revisionist history.

Edited November 5, 2019 by clarkwgriswold

[LZIp]

I was watching the SMU/Memphis game the other night and the announcers mentioned that SMU had 30 something transfers on their roster. Something Bowden did do well early on in his tenure is supplement the roster with transfers. I don't know how fair of a shot Arth had last year, but I really think he needs to make a conscious effort to get players in here that can play right away, and be plus players. OL, DL, DB, RB, and QB could all use some immediate help unless we get lucky and some of these young players really take a jump next season.

[zipsoutsider]

3 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

 

Do you really think things were going well with Bowden?  I get the Arth criticism, but damn, they couldn't even get lined up for a kickoff correctly.   I could understand a "things were better with Bowden" response, but to say things weren't going badly is revisionist history.

Yet we still won games when we shouldn't have been able to win them. Yes, things were rough, but nothing like we see now. Not even close.

[dre22era]

3 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

 

Do you really think things were going well with Bowden?  I get the Arth criticism, but damn, they couldn't even get lined up for a kickoff correctly.   I could understand a "things were better with Bowden" response, but to say things weren't going badly is revisionist history.

Bowden won games

By this time every season under Bowden we had a chance to become Bowl eligible. 

Until Arth wins a game, he is not even in the conversation with Bowden. 

[LZIp]

9 hours ago, dre22era said:

 

By this time every season under Bowden we had a chance to become Bowl eligible. 

 

Incorrect. Bowden went 1-11 his first season. There was zero chance to become bowl eligible after the 7th game. Bowden started off his second season 2-7, before winning the last 3. We were eliminated at this point then as well.

Edited November 5, 2019 by LZIp

[clarkwgriswold]

For the life of me, I don't understand why this has to be Bowden OR Arth.  One could have thought it was time for Bowden to move on AND be unhappy with how things have gone so far with Arth.

 

Thank God basketball season is here so that we can switch over to yearning for the golden days of KD.

[Zip-Grad '13]

On 11/3/2019 at 10:15 PM, akronzips71 said:

Missing the point. We are still paying him, we should be able to demand he work for us in the position we are paying him for.

 

Contracts like this often have a termination clause where the if the institution fires you/relieves you of your duties they still pay you.  You are by no means under ANY obligation to do anything for them  if they decided to terminate you coaching the team.  Just like if the Lakers decided to cut LeBron they'd still be required to pay him.  Its why you don't sign players to major contracts without know they're going to be there long-term or not.

If they wanted to cut Bowden they should have done what Kent did.  Let his contract expire and then hire the next guy.  It's not like you could do any worse...and Kent is improving just on year out from doing just that!

[Zip-Grad '13]

21 hours ago, morris buttermaker said:

I believe in 1978 Billy Martin was fired and then came back in 1979 while still under contract with the NYY

 

That was also in the Dark ages of 1979.  It's been 30-years.  Contract law, especially in sports, has changed over that time.

[akronzips71]

33 minutes ago, Zip-Grad '13 said:

 

Contracts like this often have a termination clause where the if the institution fires you/relieves you of your duties they still pay you.  You are by no means under ANY obligation to do anything for them  if they decided to terminate you coaching the team.  Just like if the Lakers decided to cut LeBron they'd still be required to pay him.  Its why you don't sign players to major contracts without know they're going to be there long-term or not.

If they wanted to cut Bowden they should have done what Kent did.  Let his contract expire and then hire the next guy.  It's not like you could do any worse...and Kent is improving just on year out from doing just that!

I don't know what is in the contract and I am not a Bowden fanboy. It was just a thought - if we are paying him, and he has not taken a new HC job, maybe we can bring him back. And fire the AD.

I don't care if we will never be National Champions, I want us to be respectable, which we certainly are not at the moment.

 

[UAZipster0305]

11 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

For the life of me, I don't understand why this has to be Bowden OR Arth.  One could have thought it was time for Bowden to move on AND be unhappy with how things have gone so far with Arth.

 

Thank God basketball season is here so that we can switch over to yearning for the golden days of KD.

Because Bowden was relieved of his duties for the sake of installing our next great coach, Arth. It is therefore impossible to dissociate the two.

 

We are a severely cashed strapped university. The only responsible time to move on from Bowden would have been after his contract expired. And yes, if we had another season or two like the 2018 season, I would have been okay finding a new coach at that time.

Edited November 6, 2019 by UAZipster0305