Games 5, 6 & 7- The Paradise Jam

[csims0917]

2 hours ago, kreed5120 said:

I'm not trying to take away from this thread as this is actually one of the more solid mid-major tournaments. That said the GW coach went on a rant about how in recent years you no longer see power conference schools play mid-majors in these tournaments. It's really a shame because it was one of the few realistic opportunities for top mid-majors to secure resume building wins. 

 

https://x.com/jjgottschalk/status/1991507432703685037?t=XYpFnUcuzaziuwb0QSBYkw&s=09

All part of the plan. With the goal to never play mid majors ever 

[Let'sGoZips94]

46 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

I think it's a conversation worth having for the sake of having the conversation. I would have shared the same if it was a SunBelt, CAA, or Horizon League coach saying the same thing.

 

He has gone to play at other mid-majors so it's not like he's a hypocrite like you keep trying to make him out to be. He literally played at 2 last year. He didn't have to play @American or @ODU last year. He choose to, which goes against the point you made about him actively avoiding them.

 

It sounds like your issue is more with Dayton or Duquesne's of the world as those are the A10 programs in our backyard who don't actively schedule MAC schools. St. Bonaventure regularly schedules Buffalo, including @ Buffalo) and has played MAC schools several times in Cleveland. Loyola Chicago I guess would be another culprit. They schedule MAC schools, but only if you play them at home, which beats not scheduling at all, but still not as good as St. Bonaventure going to Buffalo or playing Akron in Cleveland. With UMass in the league I feel you will see a few more A10-MAC battles as even though UMass doesn't have one on the schedule this year, I would expect 1, maybe 2 moving forward.

 

Last year was GW's first winning season since 2016-17. They've been middle of the road at best, and largely a bottom feeder in those 8 or 9 seasons. If GW had been a powerhouse with the status of Dayton or VCU, are they playing at American (still hard to give them credit for this considering it's essentially a home game in DC) or ODU? Who knows, but history would tell us no. Go look at VCU's & Dayton's schedules this year for reference; zero lower end road games, and Dayton actually has FSU coming to Dayton for a game. 

 

My issue is with the hypocrisy of the GW coach complaining about MTEs creating exclusive power conference fields, while his own conference has been practicing the same shift in scheduling over the past decade or so. If he had his perfect schedule, he'd also lean towards power conference bias. Heck, Georgetown played at GW to start the season. They're playing Florida in some Orange Bowl Classic in December. They were invited to the Basketball Hall of Fame Tip Off and played against USF. They are choosing to participate in the Cayman Islands Classic this weekend - McNeese St., Middle Tennessee, and Murray St. All of this before they get the privilege of playing a loaded A10 conference schedule. 

 

Spare me the crocodile tears, GW coach. 

 

(This is a much better discussion for the World of College Basketball thread)

Edited 7 hours ago by Let'sGoZips94

[kreed5120]

11 minutes ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

My issue is with the hypocrisy of the GW coach complaining about MTEs creating exclusive power conference fields, while his own conference has been practicing the same shift in scheduling over the past decade or so. If he had his perfect schedule, he'd also lean towards power conference bias. Heck, Georgetown played at GW to start the season. They're playing Florida in some Orange Bowl Classic in December. They were invited to the Basketball Hall of Fame Tip Off and played against USF. They are choosing to participate in the Cayman Islands Classic this weekend - McNeese St., Middle Tennessee, and Murray St. All of this before they get the privilege of playing a loaded A10 conference schedule. 

 

Spare me the crocodile tears, GW coach. 

 

A conference is more than just a few programs. I think it makes sense to recognize programs that schedule those games that you talk about, like a St. Bonaventure, while chastising those that don't.

 

I don't think the A10 is loaded this year. They will likely be 1 bid, just like the MAC.

Edited 6 hours ago by kreed5120

[Let'sGoZips94]

6 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

A conference is more than just a few programs. I think it makes sense to recognize programs that schedule those games that you talk about, like a St. Bonaventure, while chastising those that don't.

 

I don't think the A10 is loaded this year. They will likely be 1 bid, just like the MAC.

 

That's fine, props to St. Bonnie. I still maintain the GW coach doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. 

 

A10 is looking pretty solid to start the year. We will see how they end up. If they continue to be a legitimate 1 bid league (not a snubbed one), it's even more pathetic that they won't play more game at schools like the MAC teams. 

[kreed5120]

3 minutes ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

A10 is looking pretty solid to start the year. We will see how they end up. If they continue to be a legitimate 1 bid league (not a snubbed one), it's even more pathetic that they won't play more game at schools like the MAC teams. 

 

The committee's main complaint about conferences like MVC or A10 getting at-large bids is SOS and lack of quality wins.

 

Playing the directional Michigan's and the other dumpster fire MAC teams would feed that narrative. It would make sense for a GW or a Duquesne to schedule a school like Akron, which has consistently been in or around the top 100 for a few years now, but mostly everyone else in the MAC is a waste. Toledo a few years back would have been solid too or Buffalo before that.

 

The real problem is the selection committee. If they offered more incentives for those games getting played, they would be scheduled. The problem is the cartel of the P5 (including Big East) has stacked the deck so that they take all the at-large bids and all the other 27 conferences have to fight over maybe 2-3 at-large bids in total. 

[Let'sGoZips94]

8 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

The committee's main complaint about conferences like MVC or A10 getting at-large bids is SOS and lack of quality wins.

 

Playing the directional Michigan's and the other dumpster fire MAC teams would feed that narrative. It would make sense for a GW or a Duquesne to schedule a school like Akron, which has consistently been in or around the top 100 for a few years now, but mostly everyone else in the MAC is a waste. Toledo a few years back would have been solid too or Buffalo before that.

 

The real problem is the selection committee. If they offered more incentives for those games getting played, they would be scheduled. The problem is the cartel of the P5 (including Big East) has stacked the deck so that they take all the at-large bids and all the other 27 conferences have to fight over maybe 2-3 at-large bids in total. 

 

You are entirely missing my point.

 

Power conference teams shutting you out? Fine. Go play top 100 road games at schools like Akron. LSU is 89 NET, Florida State is 90 NET, Akron is 91 NET, Oklahoma State is 95 and Minnesota is 96. A win at Akron will probably end up in the same quadrant as a win vs any of those other power conference programs.  At the end of the year,  if there's an at large debate and someone gets snubbed because Akron isn't named LSU/FSU/MIN/OSU, then you can complain about the corrupt system. To intentionally avoid those solid G5s, especially on the road, is malpractice and hypocritical because that's exactly what power conference schools do.  

[Illini Zip]

My prediction is that the P5 cartel will continue to concentrate their financial power and control. Perhaps breaking off into their own super league making them essentially the new D1 and turning the rest of D1 into D2 and so on down the line. They will just assume that their business model of paying the best players in the country big money will maintain their elite status. But all it will take is for 1 really great team in the new D2 to refuse to play for them or with them to cast doubt on the whole project. At that point negotiations will take place or the NCAA will completely implode and we start again with who knows what. 

[Illini Zip]

Also, I realize the NET is here to stay and it’s the metric we must use to justify our participation in the NCAA Tourney. But I do not see it as the better tool for evaluating a teams performance over Kenpom. I think the NET is the P5 cartels tool to distort reality, not better understand reality. And when everything is based on “quality wins” played on the cartels home courts with home refs you have further distortion. Garbage in means garbage out. 

[kreed5120]

43 minutes ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

You are entirely missing my point.

 

Power conference teams shutting you out? Fine. Go play top 100 road games at schools like Akron. LSU is 89 NET, Florida State is 90 NET, Akron is 91 NET, Oklahoma State is 95 and Minnesota is 96. A win at Akron will probably end up in the same quadrant as a win vs any of those other power conference programs.  At the end of the year,  if there's an at large debate and someone gets snubbed because Akron isn't named LSU/FSU/MIN/OSU, then you can complain about the corrupt system. To intentionally avoid those solid G5s, especially on the road, is malpractice and hypocritical because that's exactly what power conference schools do.  

 

You should go back and read what I wrote. I literally said in my post Akron would be the one game that would be good for them to schedule in the MAC. The rest not so much.

 

There are very few G5 programs consistently as good as Akron year over year. You schedule a home and home with them and they might be good for the 1st year, but garbage the next. Another point is you don't know for certain who the top 100 teams will be until months into a season. Even the teams that might have had high preseason expectations might not live up to them or a team nobody expected emerges.

Edited 5 hours ago by kreed5120

[kreed5120]

53 minutes ago, Illini Zip said:

Also, I realize the NET is here to stay and it’s the metric we must use to justify our participation in the NCAA Tourney. But I do not see it as the better tool for evaluating a teams performance over Kenpom.

NET is very similar to KenPom. The formula isn't exactly the same, but the basic concepts are. It's more about how the committee analyzes the data than the metric itself.

 

I've even seen graphics where the committee breaks out Q1 wins into top 25 wins and non-top 25 wins to give further bonus points to a SEC that might have went 9-9 in conference play over mid-majors that picked up Q1 wins over other high quality mid-majors. Who you beat and who you lost to are already built into the numbers. Why do they feel the need to keep moving the goalposts?

Edited 4 hours ago by kreed5120

[Illini Zip]

24 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

NET is very similar to KenPom. The formula isn't exactly the same, but the basic concepts are. It's more about how the committee analyzes the data than the metric itself.

 

I've even seen graphics where the committee breaks out Q1 wins into top 25 wins and non-top 25 wins to give further bonus points to a SEC that might have went 9-9 in conference play over mid-majors that picked up Q1 wins over other high quality mid-majors. Who you beat and who you lost to are already built into the numbers. Why do they feel the need to keep moving the goalposts?

I’m not smart enough to tell you the difference between the metrics. Even if they use the same criteria they must weigh them differently. Look at the difference pertaining to Purdue. Kenpom has Purdue ranked 2nd and the NET has them at 19. All of the national polls see Purdue as a top 1 or 2 team. To me, Kenpom is just more believable.

 

I should do a test. Document the rankings at the end of non-conference and see how these metrics adjust by the end of conference play. Something seems squirrelly. And I completely agree, half the time the committee is objective and the other half subjective. 

[kreed5120]

12 minutes ago, Illini Zip said:

I’m not smart enough to tell you the difference between the metrics. Even if they use the same criteria they must weigh them differently. Look at the difference pertaining to Purdue. Kenpom has Purdue ranked 2nd and the NET has them at 19. All of the national polls see Purdue as a top 1 or 2 team. To me, Kenpom is just more believable.

 

I should do a test. Document the rankings at the end of non-conference and see how these metrics adjust by the end of conference play. Something seems squirrelly. And I completely agree, half the time the committee is objective and the other half subjective. 

NET hasn't been updated yet for this season. You're looking at last years numbers. It's not until early December that NCAA starts posting the rankings.

 

Kenpom uses preseason rankings in their numbers to help smooth things for the first few months of the year. Those rankings get phased out as the season progresses. I think it's around mid-January when they fully remove them. NET waits until December to start publishing the current season rankings as they don't use preseason rankings in their numbers so it takes until December for there to be enough data points to form a ranking. Even then the first few weeks the NET is weird. It probably isn't until January that it looks normal.

Edited 3 hours ago by kreed5120

[roopride]

ZIPS on TV tomorrow?

[kreed5120]

10 minutes ago, roopride said:

ZIPS on TV tomorrow?

ESPN+ it should be on.

[Illini Zip]

7 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

NET hasn't been updated yet for this season. You're looking at last years numbers. It's not until early December that NCAA starts posting the rankings.

 

Kenpom uses preseason rankings in their numbers to help smooth things for the first few months of the year. Those rankings get phased out as the season progresses. I think it's around mid-January when they fully remove them. NET waits until December to start publishing the current season rankings as they don't use preseason rankings in their numbers so it takes until December for there to be enough data points to form a ranking. Even then the first few weeks the NET is weird. It probably isn't until January that it looks normal.

You’re right I was looking at last year’s NET.
 

Is it too much for me to ask that the numbers speak for themselves? Let teams jump around for a couple of weeks until the dust settles. Again, either be objective or subjective. Don’t use polling in a metric people. Good grief. 

[csims0917]

So much arguing you know it’s an off day😂. So excited to watch this team play again 

[kreed5120]

UMass struggling against kenpom #312 Green Bay...

[Illini Zip]

Look out, Gottlieb has Green Bay rolling now!! Down goes UMass, again. 

[kreed5120]

UMass falls to Green Bay 79-75.

 

If Frank Martin can't turn this around one would have to think he'll quickly find himself on the hot seat. UMass isn't paying him $1.2 million and their collective isn't spending in the neighborhood of $2 million on players just so UMass can be an average to below average MAC team. 

[Illini Zip]

Watched the last 8 minutes. Not many 3 point shots taken by UMass. Not very impressed with them at all. 

[kreed5120]

1 minute ago, Illini Zip said:

Watched the last 8 minutes. Not many 3 point shots taken by UMass. Not very impressed with them at all. 

 

I tuned in around the same point and I agree. I'm not sure where this NIL money is getting spent as the talent level on the team looks the same as a Toledo or OU.

[csims0917]

Green Bay making everyone on the islands life hell. Who could’ve seen that coming!

[Let'sGoZips94]

6 minutes ago, csims0917 said:

Green Bay making everyone on the islands life hell. Who could’ve seen that coming!

 

Gotlieb's presence alone accomplishes that. 

[Illini Zip]

18 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

I tuned in around the same point and I agree. I'm not sure where this NIL money is getting spent as the talent level on the team looks the same as a Toledo or OU.

We will see soon enough, but I would guess worse than Toledo and OU. I don’t remember any transition game. Mostly walk the ball up the court.