The Arena

[Captain Kangaroo]

Wow, the program has dropped farther than I thought.

Whoops. I blame my OU-grad cousin... sold me some bad weed.

[Hilltopper]

I rarely go to the basketball games because the venue is so poor. I can't stand spending the money on tickets and then having your view blocked by a rail or people walking the track.

When the JAR first opened there was no metal railing at the top of the glass wall surrounding the lower level. It wasn't until later that year or the next year that someone from the university or the city decided that the metal cap had to be installed for what ever reason. Take away the metal cap on the glass and the site lines from the upper deck are much better.

[g-mann17]

When the JAR first opened there was no metal railing at the top of the glass wall surrounding the lower level. It wasn't until later that year or the next year that someone from the university or the city decided that the metal cap had to be installed for what ever reason. Take away the metal cap on the glass and the site lines from the upper deck are much better.

Yep, cause the metal cap will get all the people meandering about in front me out of my sight line.

As to skip (I think) that said the building isn't dilapidated, have you been in the elevators? Have you actually looked at the facility as a whole. It is a hole, i'm sorry. Our team deserved better than that, the fans deserve better than that.

It can get turned into a great training center, but it will never, ever be a great arena.

[skip-zip]

Yep, cause the metal cap will get all the people meandering about in front me out of my sight line.

As to skip (I think) that said the building isn't dilapidated, have you been in the elevators? Have you actually looked at the facility as a whole. It is a hole, i'm sorry. Our team deserved better than that, the fans deserve better than that.

It can get turned into a great training center, but it will never, ever be a great arena.

Listen. I feel your pain. I pretty much agree with everyone about everything that is inadequate about that Arena. I've had to experience the same things as everyone else over the last 3 decades. But, the place isn't in poor condition. It's not even 30 years old. I can't agree with someone who would try to make the case that poeple are staying away from Akron basketball games because they play in an old, decrepit building.

[zen]

Why don't we look at the dimensions of hockey rinks and basketball courts to get a better idea of exactly what it would take for an arena to accomodate both:

A hockey rink is 200 feet long and 85 feet wide.

A basketball court is 94 feet long and 50 feet wide.

Taking width first, because most fans are seated on the sides, there's only a 35 foot difference. Assuming the permanent seats run right up to the edge of the hockey rink, for basketball the seats would be 17.5 feet (about 2.5 Zekes) from the edge of the court on each side. Isn't that about the amount of space left between the court and seats of a dedicated basketball arena where teams and the media sit? If so, then there would be no big difference.

Length is where there's a more significant difference -- 106 feet to be exact. Again, assuming the permanent seats run right up to the edge of the hockey rink, that means 53 feet at each end between the court and the seats. So there would need to be maybe about 35 feet (8-10 rows) of moveable seating at the ends to fill in that gap between the court and the permanent seats. I'm guessing the best multi-use arenas have pretty seemless modular seating arrangements at the ends where a section can be easily removed for hockey, and when in place for basketball would be virtually indistiguishable from the permanent, unmoveable seats.

I don't know about anyone else, but i'm not a fan (pun intended) of these supposedly small compromises. To me, 35 feet farther from the action is like taking your first row people and putting them into the 12th row... and everyone else also getting a 12 row disadvantage. Of course we are just talking distance, first row people still get he luxury of not having any fans in front of them, but I think that's a huge compromise! And remember, we aren't just talking about one row of people getting pushed back... everyone is.

There's two methods for getting lots of fans in the seats;

-Prescription one is to win lots and win big. Everyone shows when the product is popular.

-Prescription two is to have a fairly entertaining product but have a venue that is on top the action, steeped theater seating, and most importantly, seat backs plus tolerable shoulder width spacing so that you can sell tickets to middle aged fans with money to replace all the front runners who wont be buying tickets because Prescription-1 is not in effect.

[Blue & Gold]

I don't know about anyone else, but i'm not a fan (pun intended) of these supposedly small compromises. To me, 35 feet farther from the action is like taking your first row people and putting them into the 12th row... and everyone else also getting a 12 row disadvantage. Of course we are just talking distance, first row people still get he luxury of not having any fans in front of them, but I think that's a huge compromise! And remember, we aren't just talking about one row of people getting pushed back... everyone is.

There's two methods for getting lots of fans in the seats;

-Prescription one is to win lots and win big. Everyone shows when the product is popular.

-Prescription two is to have a fairly entertaining product but have a venue that is on top the action, steeped theater seating, and most importantly, seat backs plus tolerable shoulder width spacing so that you can sell tickets to middle aged fans with money to replace all the front runners who wont be buying tickets because Prescription-1 is not in effect.

I'm not a huge fan of hockey arenas either, but to be fair, that 35-foot side differential would be divided by two, so that the sideline seating would be pushed back 17.5 feet on each side. Frankly, that doesn't bother me that much. In a hockey arena, it is the baseline and corner seats which are so atrociously far from the action when watching basketball. (Especially since we're not talking 15,000-person crowds as in the NBA & some -definitely not most- major college crowds.) Even in an 8,000-seat hockey arena, that 4,000-person VCU crowd would have appeared awfully sparse and you would have been able to hear a pin drop in there.

[Big Zip]

I go to the Q and have sat right behind the Cavs bench so I'm not understanding any of this complaining about hockey arena seating.

[Spin]

I go to the Q and have sat right behind the Cavs bench so I'm not understanding any of this complaining about hockey arena seating.

I've posted pictures twice of the Q, the Wolstein, and other arena flooring arrangements. And showed the floor space in B&G's "basketball only" USC example.

Obviously visual aids are as much a waste of time on here as explanations are...

[Dave in Green]

I'll try one more time:

Width of hockey rink (85 feet) minus width of basketball court (50 feet) = 35 feet total difference = 17.5 feet difference on each side.

That 17.5 feet on each side between the edge of the basketball court playing area and the first row of spectator seating is not significantly different from the space set aside for teams, scorers and media to sit at an arena optimized for basketball.

Conclusion: Width is not a significant problem.

Length of hockey rink (200 feet) minus length of basketball court (94) feet = 106 feet total difference = 53 feet difference at each end.

That 53 feet at each end between the edge of the basketball court playing area and the first row of spectator seating is excessive and places spectators significantly further from the basketball court than an arena optimized for basketball.

Conclusion: Length is a significant problem.

[LZIp]

what the hell does akron even need a hockey rink for? The club team? The minor league team we dont have?

[Big Zip]

You can show me measurements all day long....I've sat in the seats and don't see the problem. Doesn't the proof actually come from sitting in the seats and watching games?

[Dave in Green]

@Big Zip, and I tried so hard to be clear .....

You said you've sat in seats right behind the Cavs bench at the Q and don't see the problem.

The Cavs bench is on the side of the court, where measurements of hockey rinks and basketball courts confirm that there's no seating proximity problem.

The seating proximity problem is at the ends of the court, not the sides.

[Spin]

I'll try one more time:

Width of hockey rink (85 feet) minus width of basketball court (50 feet) = 35 feet total difference = 17.5 feet difference on each side.

That 17.5 feet on each side between the edge of the basketball court playing area and the first row of spectator seating is not significantly different from the space set aside for teams, scorers and media to sit at an arena optimized for basketball.

Conclusion: Width is not a significant problem.

Length of hockey rink (200 feet) minus length of basketball court (94) feet = 106 feet total difference = 53 feet difference at each end.

That 53 feet at each end between the edge of the basketball court playing area and the first row of spectator seating is excessive and places spectators significantly further from the basketball court than an arena optimized for basketball.

Conclusion: Length is a significant problem.

and so on

and so on

and so on

[LZIp]

^^ All of them look fine to me.

[Spin]

what the hell does akron even need a hockey rink for? The club team? The minor league team we dont have?

Why limit it to, what, 16 dates a year? Is the city going to pay for that???

When for not much more, they can have an arena capable of handling hockey, indoor soccer, arena football, ice capades, circuses, monster trucks, rodeos, motocross, all of the things that Youngstown, Toledo, Wheeling, and dozens of other cities Akron's size brings in.

Maybe we get an arena football tea, minor league hockey team. Indoor soccer. Minor league basketball. You won't go, so what? Well those events would only help revitalize downtown. The way the minor league baseball team has. Better restaraunts, better bars. Maybe a theater. More places to go. More money coming in to the local economy from the suburbs. More things to do before and after Zips games.

[Dave in Green]

If you look closely, some of the photos show better solutions than others to the problem of filling the 53 feet difference at each end between a hockey rink and a basketball court.

Some of the side views, like the 4th one down from the top, show that the "fill in" seats at each end of the court have an extremely shallow angle to them, while the permanent seats behind them angle up at a much steeper slope.

A dedicated basketball arena would have steeply sloping rows of seats right on top of the court.

A poorly designed arena with an ice rink with shallow seating near the court will push the crowd further from the court and make it more difficult to see over the people seated in front of you.

The better designed multipurpose arenas minimize this problem, but probably cost more to build and maintain.

[zippy5]

Yes, it's 2012. It'll be fine for basketball, and will get us an arena for less of our money, and quicker.

[skip-zip]

If you look closely, some of the photos show better solutions than others to the problem of filling the 53 feet difference at each end between a hockey rink and a basketball court.

Some of the side views, like the 4th one down from the top, show that the "fill in" seats at each end of the court have an extremely shallow angle to them, while the permanent seats behind them angle up at a much steeper slope.

A dedicated basketball arena would have steeply sloping rows of seats right on top of the court.

A poorly designed arena with an ice rink with shallow seating near the court will push the crowd further from the court and make it more difficult to see over the people seated in front of you.

The better designed multipurpose arenas minimize this problem, but probably cost more to build and maintain.

Dave,

If you recall, we discussed this issue of poor proximity to the court earlier in this thread. And it's a major concern to me as well. And it goes far beyond the poor seating angle. I think it destroys the atmosphere. It creates a lot of open air space, and that cavern-like space might not be very noticable when 20,000 people are packed into a Cavs game. But, that would be a big mistake for us. I can only imagine the faint nature of the noise in a big, open arena when a few thousand people are there for a Zips basketball game.

I need to bring up something else about the Q, since a few people have mentioned that you are close to the floor right behind the player benches. If I remember correctly, that big gap created when the hockey rink is removed is mostly made up for on the opposite side. I think there are 2-3 rows of tables in the floor-level press area before you get to the first seating row, which is right at the hockey wall.

[Blue & Gold]

Dave,

If you recall, we discussed this issue of poor proximity to the court earlier in this thread. And it's a major concern to me as well. And it goes far beyond the poor seating angle. I think it destroys the atmosphere. It creates a lot of open air space, and that cavern-like space might not be very noticable when 20,000 people are packed into a Cavs game. But, that would be a big mistake for us. I can only imagine the faint nature of the noise in a big, open arena when a few thousand people are there for a Zips basketball game.

I need to bring up something else about the Q, since a few people have mentioned that you are close to the floor right behind the player benches. If I remember correctly, that big gap created when the hockey rink is removed is mostly made up for on the opposite side. I think there are 2-3 rows of tables in the floor-level press area before you get to the first seating row, which is right at the hockey wall.

Finely worded, Skip.

It's a bit difficult to put these concerns into words, as I don't know the proper jargon. But talk concerning sideline seating versus corner and baseline seating works well. I also like how you've phrased "open air space." I'll say you coined the phrase and I'm going to use it. this is a MAJOR concern as well. (In fact, all the open air space is probably a bigger factor in KD not wanting a hockey arena than the distance of baseline and corner seating from the court - though the problems do go hand-in-hand.)

These are serious issues.

Look, I'm for a new arena of any kind. Mainly, I just want OUT of the JAR. I'd be just as excited over a hockey arena as I would be over a basketball arena. However, with a hockey arena I'd be awfully concerned about the place looking empty and being as quiet as church even if we had a crowd of 6,000.

[Dave in Green]

@skip-zip, I recall that we've discussed the finer points of a new arena enough times to make my head spin.

But we always seem to come up with some new data to consider, so the multiple discussions aren't wasted. Thanks to thoughts that others have posted here along with some of my own research work, I think I have a better idea of what I'd like to see and what I wouldn't like to see in a new arena where the Zips would play basketball.

Since I'm primarily a basketball fan, I'd prefer an arena optimized for basketball. But I could be satisfied with a multipurpose arena as long as the basketball seating isn't compromised to the point that it's noticeably inferior.

Hopefully the design of any proposed new arena would be based on one of the better existing facilities. And if it does get built, hopefully corners aren't cut like they were in the JAR.

I'm ready to protest if I see an inferior design proposal.

[Spin]

What you have to remember is the front row of a newer hockey arena are not on ground level. When the boards are removed, more stands are brought in along the sides so there really is only 2-3 rows on the floor itself. That's even more pronounced on the ends where the plexi is higher. In fact some sacrifice lower rows of hockey seating on the ends, to make it more workable for basketball.

The ends vary from arena to arena. I know there are places where one end section can be moved out to the floor, but can't find any shots where that is evident.

Atmosphere. We're talking a building less than half the size of the NBA arenas. Built to an appropriate size (CSU's blunder) and atmosphere is not an issue. Having lived through many Canton Invaders games with at least part of my hearing, that place ROCKED. It's all about proportion. They could sell 4000 seats, they only had 4000 seats, and it was on!!! Something slightly larger, say 6-8000 for basketball, is going to be equally "packed".

[Blue & Gold]

What you have to remember is the front row of a newer hockey arena are not on ground level. When the boards are removed, more stands are brought in along the sides so there really is only 2-3 rows on the floor itself. That's even more pronounced on the ends where the plexi is higher. In fact some sacrifice lower rows of hockey seating on the ends, to make it more workable for basketball.

The ends vary from arena to arena. I know there are places where one end section can be moved out to the floor, but can't find any shots where that is evident.

Atmosphere. We're talking a building less than half the size of the NBA arenas. Built to an appropriate size (CSU's blunder) and atmosphere is not an issue. Having lived through many Canton Invaders games with at least part of my hearing, that place ROCKED. It's all about proportion. They could sell 4000 seats, they only had 4000 seats, and it was on!!! Something slightly larger, say 6-8000 for basketball, is going to be equally "packed".

Bringing the Canton Civic Center into consideration is a good move. It's a hockey arena and seats, what, 5,000? It does have one end chopped off for a stage, IIRC. Of course we'd build something far superior to that poor old lady, but that can give a good visual concerning appropriate scale. We'd need an 8,000 - 10,000-seat facility? So half the size of the Q, but twice-ish the size of the Canton Civic Center.

(edit:) With a relatively LOW roof! We need to keep the noise in there! Even the Q is usually pretty quiet (of course the Cavs have a lot to do with that). That's why they NEVER turn that blaring music off! There's ALWAYS either music blaring or an MC screaming. It's IMHO, pretty hokey - needless to say, not a college basketball environment which is more focussed on the band, students and THE GAME!

[ZachTheZip]

The ideal arena is Dayton's. It's absolutely perfect. But I think it could be modified to fit a hockey rink with minimal changes, and it's a sacrifice I'm willing to accept if it's the only way to get it built.

[Spin]

Hmmm, how big do we need it to be?

Last year our high was 5,019. We had 8,168 for a CSU game in 1986, and 15 games over capacity since the JAR was built.

The latest figures I have on the conference show Ohio U averaging 5,289 in 2009-10. This article does show attendance trending up for most of the conference.

A downtown location should help attendance too.

BUT. We haven't averaged 4000 per game since Bob Rupert was the coach. We haven't drawn 3000 since 07-08. So if we go 8000 and attendance doesn't increase by a great amount, maybe the Q's system of curtaining off the upper deck during Monsters games is needed to keep that atmosphere.

[zen]

However, with a hockey arena I'd be awfully concerned about the place looking empty and being as quiet as church even if we had a crowd of 6,000.

I do not want to be closed minded to hockey here, but I just don't think that the optimal basketball experience should be compromised when we don't even have a disney-fistfight-on-ice program here anyway