Home vs. Toledo

[zestycoyote]

While Kretzer & McAdams both need to get better from 3-point land, I have been happy to see Kretzer start driving more often. He's been more awake on defense as well. Reggie has little value if he isn't shooting over 40%.

Over the past few games, Betancourt has been a semi-competent passer & defender, but until he is a threat to score, the Zips are going to have trouble running a consistent offense. Is there any way he is on the team next year? Evans disappears after he makes his first pass. In Hawaii, he became a difference maker by taking the shot after a few passes. It seems he's too concerned about being a ball distributor to be effective at all.

Tree is fine. He played well enough today, though Toledo never double-teamed him. Deji looked good but he continues to pick up quick fouls. Pat & Big Dawg aren't consistent offensive threats and when it goes bad with their shooting, their defense follows.

This team is living & dying with Q. There's no way this team's sixth man should be the only diverse threat on offense.

[msopher]

Considering that Toledo hasn't been to the big dance in 33 years, it's hard to say that our program is back. When I was a student in late 90s, we generally won 20 games and perhaps an NIT game or two...decent seasons but nothing special. Though we look good now, it's still another 2 months until tournament time. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see us 15-2 but we have a long way to go before I start any "torch passing" threads.

[Dr Z]

If Akron uses the formula they did today, they don't match up well with Toledo. I hope Akron avoids Toledo in the MAC tourney because I don't see us changing our game plan. You know the old saying about the QB gets too much credit, and too much blame? I think the PG position gets too much blame on this team. There are multiple things not clicking right now, the point guard position is just one of them. I think the position is what it is, now you must adjust your game plan because of it, not run the same ol' same ol' despite it. I'm not trying to take credit away from Toledo, they played well and deserved to win. They wanted the game, and out hustled us.

[scottditzen]

The JAR once again looked very telegenic. It always looks good on tv. The floor looked stellar. I really liked how ESPN went into the locker areas and raved about how nice they were. You couldn't miss that huge wall mural of LeBron ha ha.

However, what's so obvious is that the setup with the seating is just very very bad. I know the crowd was kinda out of the game for the most part. But with no discernible student section, the crowd on tv just looked extra bored and elderly. It would be so much nicer to have the students and younger, more energetic types a bit closer to the action.

[johnnyzip84]

While there might have been some odd lineups out there at times that I didn't agree with, I don't think much in the way of strategy or tactics would have changed the results. Our big weaknesses, turnovers and FT shooting, were joined by an unforeseen lack of defensive rebounding to form a triumvirate that sealed the Zips fate.

I echo the opinion that UT has a team that could represent well in the NCAA tourney. If the Zips played them 10 times this season, I'm not sure they would win even 1. It's just a horrible match-up. Juice is fantastic. He's a more athletic version of AA. The Rockets have all the necessary pieces. That's not to say UT has the MAC won - far from it. But if somehow the Zips scratch and claw their way back to an 8th straight MAC championship game (unlikely IMHO), we all better hope someone else has eliminated UT.

Many Zip fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of quality in the West. There's no need for this talk anymore. We got a taste of that today, and we'll probably get another helping in Ypsilanti next Wednesday. It'll be interesting to see if KD can keep the team's morale and effort up over the next 7 games, 5 of which are on the road.

[johnnyzip84]

While there might have been some odd lineups out there at times that I didn't agree with, I don't think much in the way of strategy or tactics would have changed the results. Our big weaknesses, turnovers and FT shooting, were joined by an unforeseen lack of defensive rebounding to form a triumvirate that sealed the Zips fate.

I echo the opinion that UT has a team that could represent well in the NCAA tourney. If the Zips played them 10 times this season, I'm not sure they would win even 1. It's just a horrible match-up. Juice is fantastic. He's a more athletic version of AA. The Rockets have all the necessary pieces. That's not to say UT has the MAC won - far from it. But if somehow the Zips scratch and claw their way back to an 8th straight MAC championship game (unlikely IMHO), we all better hope someone else has eliminated UT.

Many Zip fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of quality in the West. There's no need for this talk anymore. We got a taste of that today, and we'll probably get another helping in Ypsilanti next Wednesday. It'll be interesting to see if KD can keep the team's morale and effort up over the next 7 games, 5 of which are on the road.

[clarkwgriswold]

Holy smokes, that was just brutal. I wish I could say it was just an off day, but it just seems that this team is not gelling and that Dambrot is having a tough time mentally figuring them out.

We are half way through the season and we still have no semblance of a regular rotation, and it is rare that we have 5 of our top players on the court together. Forsythe needed to settle into the bench today as he just was not there, and Betancourt's and Ibatayo's roles need to be cut way back.

[skip-zip]

Just a couple of thoughts tonight, as I deal with my depression:

1) I saw us get "out-toughed" today. We were beaten at our own game. Very surprising for a Dambrot era Akron team. This included some more lazy efforts going after loose balls.

2) Getting outrebounded by 14 by a MAC team is just unacceptable.

3) Making barely half of our free throws is unacceptable, and unbelievable.

4) Pretty scary when we can give up 75 points to Toledo with Pearson scoring only 6 points. But his flying dunk late in the game was unbelievable.

5) With an attendance of only 4,500, we were obviously getting some bad numbers this week of there only being a couple hundred tickets remaining.

6) This reminded me of only one other game in the last decade or so at the JAR, and that was the beating that OU put on us at home 2 years ago. Good thing we only play them once, and good thing we don't have to go to their place on a return trip.

7) We have about 6 weeks to get ready for a MAC tournament, and the road to a title will probably have to include a win over Toledo. I hope we are already looking at the film tonight, and finding ways to get better.

[UAZip0510]

While there might have been some odd lineups out there at times that I didn't agree with, I don't think much in the way of strategy or tactics would have changed the results. Our big weaknesses, turnovers and FT shooting, were joined by an unforeseen lack of defensive rebounding to form a triumvirate that sealed the Zips fate.

I echo the opinion that UT has a team that could represent well in the NCAA tourney. If the Zips played them 10 times this season, I'm not sure they would win even 1. It's just a horrible match-up. Juice is fantastic. He's a more athletic version of AA. The Rockets have all the necessary pieces. That's not to say UT has the MAC won - far from it. But if somehow the Zips scratch and claw their way back to an 8th straight MAC championship game (unlikely IMHO), we all better hope someone else has eliminated UT.

Many Zip fans have bitched and moaned for years about the lack of quality in the West. There's no need for this talk anymore. We got a taste of that today, and we'll probably get another helping in Ypsilanti next Wednesday. It'll be interesting to see if KD can keep the team's morale and effort up over the next 7 games, 5 of which are on the road.

You really think Toledo is that much better than Akron? They're very good and may well win the MAC but this is a pretty big exaggeration IMO.

[GP1]

You really think Toledo is that much better than Akron? They're very good and may well win the MAC but this is a pretty big exaggeration IMO.

He may be only off by a game or two. It was a complete beating today. It was machinelike in the way they beat the Zips.

Toledo was better than Akron in a way that doing a thing or two different isn't going to change the fact that they have better players and a better overall team. For example, they didn't out rebound the Zips because Akron wasn't hustling. Players can look like they aren't hustling when they are getting out performed by another player. They out rebounded Akron because they are better at rebounding. They converted a lot of points in the paint off of rebounds not because they were out hustling Akron, they did it because they are good at getting offensive rebounds and scoring in the paint.

I don't know if anyone remembers my post from earlier this year, but I'd like to bring it up again. Akron has a bunch of one trick ponies. All of their guys tend to be good at one thing and not very good at most other things. Toledo has guys who can rebound AND score after getting a rebound. They have a guard who can shoot from the outside AND create off of the dribble. We just don't have enough of those kinds of players. We have one star in Tree and he was outplayed by both of Toledo's stars today.

So, my question is this. After two years, how is Toledo's coach able to field such a complete team full of versatile players and we continually rotate one guy after another in an attempt to throw enough poop at the wall that something will stick? Toledo had three guys play over 30 minutes and one at 29. Akron had only one guy play 30 minutes and then another at 29. KD needs to find five guys who are going to get the majority of the minutes, start them and stick with them do or die. This whole "11 man rotation" nonsense is just that, nonsense. It looks great against cupcakes, but stinks up the gym against teams with real talent.

I guess another question. Of all the MAC teams that went deep (for us, that would mean winning a game) into the ncaa tournament, how many of them really were using 10 different guys on a regular basis? If my memory is correct, most of them threw their stars on the floor and lived and died with them for as many minutes as possible. Toledo might just do the same thing this year.

[skip-zip]

He may be only off by a game or two. It was a complete beating today. It was machinelike in the way they beat the Zips.

Toledo was better than Akron in a way that doing a thing or two different isn't going to change the fact that they have better players and a better overall team. For example, they didn't out rebound the Zips because Akron wasn't hustling. Players can look like they aren't hustling when they are getting out performed by another player. They out rebounded Akron because they are better at rebounding. They converted a lot of points in the paint off of rebounds not because they were out hustling Akron, they did it because they are good at getting offensive rebounds and scoring in the paint.

I agree about the beating, but not the details. Many of those rebounds today were not clean rebounds, but were loose balls that were slapped around, and they beat us to many of them. I don't want to pick on Pat, but there was one particular instance where he took a couple of lazy steps and reached out for a loose rebound in some clear space, and a Toledo player simply ran in front of him and took it away. It was that kind of day.

This was not typical of how Toledo had been playing. They appeared to have gotten themselves well prepared to come in here and play our kind of game and win, and that's exactly what they did. They showed another side of themselves, and that scares the crap out of me.

And I have to ask myself....how is a team this good that is just coming off of probation?

[Dr Z]

Pretty scary when we can give up 75 points to Toledo with Pearson scoring only 6 points. But his flying dunk late in the game was unbelievable.

Reminiscent of some of Jimmal Ball's work. I don't blame any fans, but a lot of them left and missed it since it was in "garbage" time. It was interesting to see how his game changed now that he has a team around him.

I agree about the beating, but not the details. Many of those rebounds today were not clean rebounds, but were loose balls that were slapped around, and they beat us to many of them. I don't want to pick on Pat, but there was one particular instance where he took a couple of lazy steps and reached out for a loose rebound in some clear space, and a Toledo player simply ran in front of him and took it away. It was that kind of day.

A few of those rebounds, the Zips had descent position under the hoop and the rebound became long enough it was just out of their reach. Doesn't change the fact that they were outworked on most, but I did make that comment in the first half.

I guess another question. Of all the MAC teams that went deep (for us, that would mean winning a game) into the ncaa tournament, how many of them really were using 10 different guys on a regular basis? If my memory is correct, most of them threw their stars on the floor and lived and died with them for as many minutes as possible. Toledo might just do the same thing this year.

While I agree with the theory, I don't have the vision as some do for the big Toledo NCAA run. I do enjoy their style, they are players that are comfortable what the guy next to them is going to do. Nothing against Tree (my favorite player on the team), CB drove the lane and dished up a nice alley oop, but Tree wasn't on the same page. Just not the same familiarity.

My favorite move of Trees wasn't on court yesterday. He was working his butt off, KD pulled him to give him a break, Tree sat down for about 20 seconds and went over to KD and told him he was good to go. He worked hard yesterday.

PS I caught a few Zips Nation members through my lens across the court who used to post thoughtful critics without agendas. I miss reading those posts.

[johnnyzip84]

You really think Toledo is that much better than Akron? They're very good and may well win the MAC but this is a pretty big exaggeration IMO.

I'm willing to concede that I exaggerated, but only slightly. I revise my prediction upward to 1-2 Zip wins in 10 games against Toledo instead of 0-1.

The criticism of Pat's lethargic play is warranted. Q took some highly questionable shots, and Jake seems to try to extend his range every game. And I agree with those who think we need to give the majority of our minutes to our best players. But I still think UT is a bad match-up. In talking to a few Rocket fans at BW's after the game, they revealed UT has been vulnerable to dribble penetration all year. When you don't have the ability to take advantage of an opponent's primary weakness, it's pretty tough to defeat them.

Adding two high level transfers to a team that already had a special player (Pierson), an emerging point guard (Juice) and a tall, strong, and willing big man (Booth) is a recipe for a quick turnaround, skip. Todd K is a very good coach as well. Having said all that, EMU and WMU will still have something to say in the West race.

[GP1]

I agree about the beating, but not the details. Many of those rebounds today were not clean rebounds, but were loose balls that were slapped around, and they beat us to many of them. I don't want to pick on Pat, but there was one particular instance where he took a couple of lazy steps and reached out for a loose rebound in some clear space, and a Toledo player simply ran in front of him and took it away. It was that kind of day.

This was not typical of how Toledo had been playing. They appeared to have gotten themselves well prepared to come in here and play our kind of game and win, and that's exactly what they did. They showed another side of themselves, and that scares the crap out of me.

And I have to ask myself....how is a team this good that is just coming off of probation?

Being in position to get loose balls is like being in position to get a rebound. Toledo was constantly in front of the Zips rebounders on the offensive end and the defensive end. If you execute good fundamental position rebounding (rebounding is an art, not a bunch of guys bumping into each other), the ball falls your way even when they are loose balls. It's the same as getting a fumble in football, get enough guys around the ball and fumbles get recovered. Get enough guys around the rim/ball and the rebounds go your way.

How is Toledo this good? They brought in three really good players with two of them being top notch MAC players, they put them out on the floor for the vast majority of the game with some other decent player, they execute on the offensive/defensive end with good passing/a well run offense/good team defense and play a fundamentally sound game for 40 minutes. What Toledo is doing is not complicated. Toledo plays good basketball. Akron tinkers with the rotation hoping something works.

[Dave in Green]

... I guess another question. Of all the MAC teams that went deep (for us, that would mean winning a game) into the ncaa tournament, how many of them really were using 10 different guys on a regular basis? If my memory is correct, most of them threw their stars on the floor and lived and died with them for as many minutes as possible. Toledo might just do the same thing this year.

Toledo has 9 players who have averaged 11 or more minutes per game while playing in all 17 games. One of the little wrinkles that no one has mentioned is that for the first time this season, the Rockets had a different starting line up. After the same 5 starting in 16 previous games, they started sub Jonathan Williams in place of regular starter Justin Drummond. Williams ended up playing only 12 minutes, but the different look was one of many little things the Rockets did that showed how much priority they placed on this game. Toledo went to extraordinary lengths to win this game, and it showed. Going into this game I don't think the Zips fully appreciated that the torch has been passed and OU is no longer the biggest obstacle to winning the MAC. Just as OU replaced Can't a few years ago as the toughest challenge in the MAC for the Zips, Toledo is now the team the Zips have to beat. They will be better prepared next time.

[skip-zip]

Being in position to get loose balls is like being in position to get a rebound.

I'm not being mean, but please share with us how you get in superior position to get loose balls against your opponent.

[GP1]

I'm not being mean, but please share with us how you get in superior position to get loose balls against your opponent.

Off of shots, properly boxing out renders your opponent less mobile. Since he is less mobile, he is less likely to get a loose ball. The player in proper athletic position wins.

[GP1]

Toledo went to extraordinary lengths to win this game, and it showed.

It's extraordinary to play your best players most of the game in a big, nationally televised game? Sounds like smart coaching to me.

Averages are interesting as the don't always tell the real story. I would be more interested in knowing the minutes distribution against meaningful teams.

[tomzip]

He may be only off by a game or two. It was a complete beating today. It was machinelike in the way they beat the Zips.

Toledo was better than Akron in a way that doing a thing or two different isn't going to change the fact that they have better players and a better overall team. For example, they didn't out rebound the Zips because Akron wasn't hustling. Players can look like they aren't hustling when they are getting out performed by another player. They out rebounded Akron because they are better at rebounding. They converted a lot of points in the paint off of rebounds not because they were out hustling Akron, they did it because they are good at getting offensive rebounds and scoring in the paint.

I don't know if anyone remembers my post from earlier this year, but I'd like to bring it up again. Akron has a bunch of one trick ponies. All of their guys tend to be good at one thing and not very good at most other things. Toledo has guys who can rebound AND score after getting a rebound. They have a guard who can shoot from the outside AND create off of the dribble. We just don't have enough of those kinds of players. We have one star in Tree and he was outplayed by both of Toledo's stars today.

So, my question is this. After two years, how is Toledo's coach able to field such a complete team full of versatile players and we continually rotate one guy after another in an attempt to throw enough poop at the wall that something will stick? Toledo had three guys play over 30 minutes and one at 29. Akron had only one guy play 30 minutes and then another at 29. KD needs to find five guys who are going to get the majority of the minutes, start them and stick with them do or die. This whole "11 man rotation" nonsense is just that, nonsense. It looks great against cupcakes, but stinks up the gym against teams with real talent.

I guess another question. Of all the MAC teams that went deep (for us, that would mean winning a game) into the ncaa tournament, how many of them really were using 10 different guys on a regular basis? If my memory is correct, most of them threw their stars on the floor and lived and died with them for as many minutes as possible. Toledo might just do the same thing this year.

Nailed it with the one trick ponies. I have written this team off for this year of doing anything magical, there is zero cohesion, gelling or whatever you want to call it. The lack of AA and Zeke is killing this team.

I think without one of them we would look better than we are now, not both. The lack of any point guard play could be offset by a rebounding machine down low, now we have both gone and Toledo destroyed us. This is a year to step back and hopefully Tree and Nick come back next year and somehow we get a point guard that can run the show, have confidence and throw in a shot here and there. AA would look good out there running with the rest of our athletes, just no floor general to speak of out there.

The point being outscored 25-0 or whatever yesterday was insane. Spoon took it to the Zips as well. Toledo came in with the aggressive mind set and wanted to-- and made the statement.

[tomzip]

The JAR once again looked very telegenic. It always looks good on tv. The floor looked stellar. I really liked how ESPN went into the locker areas and raved about how nice they were. You couldn't miss that huge wall mural of LeBron ha ha.

However, what's so obvious is that the setup with the seating is just very very bad. I know the crowd was kinda out of the game for the most part. But with no discernible student section, the crowd on tv just looked extra bored and elderly. It would be so much nicer to have the students and younger, more energetic types a bit closer to the action.

We're stuck with this dump for a while. I am highly disappointed with no updates from the University on anything on a new arena/update the JAR as what Toledo did to Savage Hall. We could go on and on about new arena designs/ideas (see thread) but the silence is amazing from the school. Maybe help in our recruiting of future talent to say "hey come to Akron and look and what is on the horizon". Hear that any point guards in the country that can do their job??

[Balsy]

Is it just me or do we always seem to lay an egg after beating OU in a big game?

[LZIp]

Is it just me or do we always seem to lay an egg after beating OU in a big game?

I wouldn't call it laying an egg. Toledo is damn good and we aren't that good. Toledo hung with Kansas the whole game @ Kansas. I saw somebody said that the Zips weren't ready/underestimated Toledo. Enough with the excuses. Anyone who follows the MAC knew Toledo would be a serious contender to win the conference this season.

[zippy5]

I feel like Toledo played their best game and we played about our worst game. I think we'll see them in Cleveland, but I wouldn't write us off at all. I do think "Think Bigger" has to wait another year. We can compete in and win the MAC, but I don't see any domination happening like last year.

[Dave in Green]

... Averages are interesting as the don't always tell the real story. I would be more interested in knowing the minutes distribution against meaningful teams.

Would you consider Toledo's game against Kansas meaningful enough? Here's what UT's 9-man rotation played against Kansas vs. their season average minutes compared with the season average minutes played by each of the 10 Zips players averaging double-digit minutes.

34, 32, 29, 26, 23, 18, 15, 14, 9 = UT vs. Kansas

33, 30, 28, 27, 26, 17, 16, 11, 11 = UT season average

31, 27, 24, 23, 22, 19, 13, 12, 11, 11 = Zips season average

[RACER]

johnny zip I have agree with you.if we played Toledo 100 X we would not beat them. the players for Toledo are better than akron players.

Toledo will probably win every mac game.i just don't see anyone beating them.just look at the scores .toledo 67 buffalo 65 with Toledo winning

with a shot at the buzzer. wmu 87 Toledo 76.those two scores prove akron would have no chance winning one game out of ten.

maybe gp and johnny can explain how Toledo lost by 11 to wmu, and beat buffalo by only two points.