Downtown Arena!

[zippy5]

"on a large purchase".. You said it yourself, little shopping trips to the mall with .25% lower tax aren't meaningful.

[GP1]

So simple logic tells us that the only folks who are driving from the west side of Akron down to Belden Village to save money on a $100 purchase or even a $1,000 purchase are the ones who failed math. They're spending more on gas than they're saving in sales taxes.

This is why I've never understood the fascination people have with driving two hours to an outlet mall to save $.50 on a pair of underwear. It just doesn't make sense to me.

On the surface, the .25% tax is a small amount. However, the tax burden in Ohio is disproportionately higher as a measurement of average income. (Overall tax burden comparison.) It isn't just this tax, but all of the other taxes the average Ohioan is required to pay. It becomes death by a thousand cuts. Again, I don't live there anymore, but it would chap my butt if I was still living in Akron while paying a high city income tax and then have another tax on top of it.

Someone mentioned earlier that UofA did a horrible job of rolling out this idea. I agree. They didn't do a good job of controlling the message by taking a complex document and explaining it in a way that the majority of people could understand.

[Dave in Green]

Skip, sorry you didn't get a chance before making your last post to read my last one. We're all now in agreement that simple math shows that car purchases are about the only things worth driving across a county line to save a few bucks on slightly lower sales taxes.

The reports you cited that a major factor in the enormous growth and success of the Belden Village area is due to a .25% lower sales tax attracting people to drive down from Summit County are likely propaganda pushed by low sales tax advocates. In the real world, we're all in agreement that you lose more in gasoline costs than you gain in sales tax savings on any purchase less than several thousand dollars.

As others have already pointed out, the simple message to remember from this long discussion is that a .25% sales tax difference amounts to 25 cents per $100 purchase.

[ewbrooman1]

This is why I've never understood the fascination people have with driving two hours to an outlet mall to save $.50 on a pair of underwear. It just doesn't make sense to me.

On the surface, the .25% tax is a small amount. However, the tax burden in Ohio is disproportionately higher as a measurement of average income. (Overall tax burden comparison.) It isn't just this tax, but all of the other taxes the average Ohioan is required to pay. It becomes death by a thousand cuts. Again, I don't live there anymore, but it would chap my butt if I was still living in Akron while paying a high city income tax and then have another tax on top of it.

Someone mentioned earlier that UofA did a horrible job of rolling out this idea. I agree. They didn't do a good job of controlling the message by taking a complex document and explaining it in a way that the majority of people could understand.

I think the "announcement" was poorly handled/coordinated by all involved. The vote of the Board of Trustees was allowed to be the first mention of an agreement by Summit County, the city of Akron, the University and the Development Finance Authority to build an arena with financing from a countywide sales tax from which the great majority of the funds will go to something else. Seems to me with all these people involved there would have been a combined announcement to explain the entire plan. Many people will probably now only see this as the U of Akron arena project no matter what. Hopefully they will pull things together soon and do a better job of communicating.

[akzipper]

I think the "announcement" was poorly handled/coordinated by all involved. The vote of the Board of Trustees was allowed to be the first mention of an agreement by Summit County, the city of Akron, the University and the Development Finance Authority to build an arena with financing from a countywide sales tax from which the great majority of the funds will go to something else. Seems to me with all these people involved there would have been a combined announcement to explain the entire plan. Many people will probably now only see this as the U of Akron arena project no matter what. Hopefully they will pull things together soon and do a better job of communicating.

Unfortunately whenever a facility is built, the public only views it as helping the primary tenant. Regardless of how the news is presented. They see the Q only benefitting the Cavs, Progressive Field benefitting the Indians, etc. Completely forgetting about other concerts and events throughout the year. Not to mention the economical impact it has on surrounding businesses and neighborhoods.

[GP1]

Not to mention the economical impact it has on surrounding businesses and neighborhoods.

The little impact it has, it really isn't worth mentioning. See my nine links earlier in this thread.

[skip-zip]

If anyone noticed, the Sin Tax renewal actually Passed in Cuyahoga County last night. Things have changed in 20 years, but obviously a majority are still willing to have their tax money used to help their pro sports teams.

So, I guess this is the only question left:

Will Summit County voters somehow value the Zips the same way that Cuyahoga County values the Indians? It's a really tough road, I think.

[g-mann17]

The real question isn't whether Summit County values the Zips, it's whether Summit County sees a need for improvements to the Sheriff's Department and Jail. If the issue goes to ballot (Summit County Council has to pass it on the 12th), that is what will be marketed. That is what will gain the support of all the unions in the county and that is how the idea will be sold moving forward. The Arena is only 1/3 of the issue.

You will see a lot of stories about how bad the jail is, how outdated the equipment is, how understaffed the sheriff's department is.

Too many are seeing this as solely and arena ballot, and it's not. It's a services ballot with an economic driver attached to it. Sales tax to benefit the sheriff's department and an economic investment to ideally increase entertainment sales inside the county.

[Zip_ME87]

If anyone noticed, the Sin Tax renewal actually Passed in Cuyahoga County last night. Things have changed in 20 years, but obviously a majority are still willing to have their tax money used to help their pro sports teams.

So, I guess this is the only question left:

Will Summit County voters somehow value the Zips the same way that Cuyahoga County values the Indians? It's a really tough road, I think.

Apart from the college vs pro sports, the difference in summit county is a sales tax that hits everyone vs a sin tax that hits only those who drink or smoke. It's easy for those who don't drink or smoke to vote for a tax on alcohol & cigarettes.

[ZachTheZip]

Apart from the college vs pro sports, the difference in summit county is a sales tax that hits everyone vs a sin tax that hits only those who drink or smoke. It's easy for those who don't drink or smoke to vote for a tax on alcohol & cigarettes.

Everybody in Cuyahoga County drinks.

[Big Zip]

I would have liked to see this as a sin tax.

[g-mann17]

I would have liked to see this as a sin tax.

Ohio does not allow Sin Tax for public projects anymore, so that isn't an option. Cuyahoga County had to get special permission to even ask for the extension to go on the ballot.

[Captain Kangaroo]

I'm tired of sin taxes. The lowest of the low-hanging fruit...tax cigarettes and alcohol. After 230 years, that's as creative as anyone can get?

[Zip_ME87]

Ohio does not allow Sin Tax for public projects anymore, so that isn't an option. Cuyahoga County had to get special permission to even ask for the extension to go on the ballot.

Thanks. I missed that allong the way.

http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/07/05/state-budget-amendment-clears-way-for-sin-tax-extension/

[skip-zip]

Apart from the college vs pro sports, the difference in summit county is a sales tax that hits everyone vs a sin tax that hits only those who drink or smoke. It's easy for those who don't drink or smoke to vote for a tax on alcohol & cigarettes.

Good point. That's true, and proportionally, sales tax increases hurt the lower middle class and poor even more.

You know, I see some people pointing out that this is for "OTHER THINGS" besides an arena for the Zips. But, none of that matters....it's the perspective from the VOTERS point of view that matters. How will they see it? And even if some see the "other" stuff, what is Summit County's history of getting people to "rally" behind improvements for the jail?

[skip-zip]

Too many are seeing this as solely and arena ballot

That's the challenge. "Too Many" will see it that way.

[g-mann17]

That's the challenge. "Too Many" will see it that way.

By the time this has an issue # attached to it, and the campaign starts, the only thing that will be associated with the issue is the need of the sheriff's department.

There will be opposition, it's a tax issue, but the major call is the sheriff's needs and that will be the campaign push. There is a reason this was announced 7 months before it will ever appear on the ballot, come October, most people will only see the ballot issue as a call for more money for the sheriff's department.

[Spin]

If anyone noticed, the Sin Tax renewal actually Passed in Cuyahoga County last night. Things have changed in 20 years, but obviously a majority are still willing to have their tax money used to help their pro sports teams.

So, I guess this is the only question left:

Will Summit County voters somehow value the Zips the same way that Cuyahoga County values the Indians? It's a really tough road, I think.

There was so much more that this issue was about that the alcohol and tobacco companies didn't mention in their advertising blitz. Enough people saw through those lies and misconceptions, along with the sports fans to get it through.

This is a different animal.

[Dave in Green]

It's funny that there was another more balanced story in the ABJ that's being ignored. This story is more focused on other aspects of the proposed tax rather than just the arena. One of the interesting points made in the story is the following:

Summit County consumers now pay a sales tax of 5.75 percent to the state, 0.5 percent to the Metro Regional Transit Authority and 0.5 percent to the county for a total of 6.75 percent. Among Ohio’s 88 counties, Summit and Stark are tied for the lowest county sales tax rate of 0.5 percent. Only three others — Wayne, Lorain and Butler — collect less than 1 percent.

“We are one of six large urban counties in the state, so Cuyahoga, Hamilton, Franklin, Lucas, Montgomery get 1 percent or 1.25 percent of their sales tax, which is still more than what the county would be proposing,” said Jason Dodson, Pry’s chief of staff. “Even if the sales tax increase passes we would still have the lowest sales tax in an urban county. If you spend $100 at the store it would cost an additional quarter.”

[LZIp]

I'm tired of sin taxes. The lowest of the low-hanging fruit...tax cigarettes and alcohol. After 230 years, that's as creative as anyone can get?

I have no problem with taxing people who smoke more. If they want to raise my insurance premium, they can give back to the city a little bit.

[GP1]

I'm tired of sin taxes. The lowest of the low-hanging fruit...tax cigarettes and alcohol. After 230 years, that's as creative as anyone can get?

The Ianello offense was more creative.

[Big Zip]

Didn't realize you can't have a sin tax anymore...that is dumb. Why mess with something that works...sure it's boring but I am not goin for exciting I was going for effective.

[skip-zip]

By the time this has an issue # attached to it, and the campaign starts, the only thing that will be associated with the issue is the need of the sheriff's department.

There will be opposition, it's a tax issue, but the major call is the sheriff's needs and that will be the campaign push.

Can I have a dime for every election campaign where the perception of the voters didn't mirror what the supporters pushed for in the campaign? Come on.

How do you know how people are going to see it? Nobody does.

And to be honest with you, I don't see money for jail improvements as any more or less of an attraction for voters than a sports arena for a team that most of the county residents have never seen. If you've never been in jail or at a Zips b-ball game, what are the chances you'd care?

[Dave in Green]

Maybe everyone here has been too busy following the Zips and thinking about a new arena to notice that the campaign to sway public opinion into supporting a sales tax increase to correct serious violations at the dangerously understaffed Summit County Jail began last year:

Summit County Jail becomes headache; low staffing to blame, officials say

If voters fail to pass the sales tax increase, one option would be to start releasing prisoners sooner and send them back to their neighborhoods in and around Akron and Summit County to mingle with their tax-averse neighbors.

[ZachTheZip]

Maybe everyone here has been too busy following the Zips and thinking about a new arena to notice that the campaign to sway public opinion into supporting a sales tax increase to correct serious violations at the dangerously understaffed Summit County Jail began last year:

Summit County Jail becomes headache; low staffing to blame, officials say

If voters fail to pass the sales tax increase, one option would be to start releasing prisoners sooner and send them back to their neighborhoods in and around Akron and Summit County to mingle with their tax-averse neighbors.

Another option is to stop sending pot smokers to jail and just give them a monetary fine.