Antwon Lillard

[Blue & Gold]

I know we don't have any available scholarships remaining this year, but does anyone know if we're, none-the-less looking at Cleveland Central Catholic's Antwon Lillard? He's a great player who's really come into his own this year. Was thinking maybe he could greyshirt (or whatever) and pick up one of the available schollies next year, ala, Jimmond Ivey.

[Dave in Green]

Greyshirt is not the appropriate term. If Lillard is an academic non-qualifier -- that is, if his HS grades and test scores don't meet minimum college level requirements -- he could enroll at a college for a year and try to become academically qualified and be eligible for an athletic scholarship. But if he's academically qualified out of HS and is a good player, he will likely take a scholarship offer somewhere that he can play without sitting out a year. Some of the stories about him have said that he has received offers from D-I schools.

[Blue & Gold]

I've seen him play a few times and I think he's under-valued. (Even though he was 1st-Team All-Ohio D-2 & Northeast Lakes Region POY.)

Apparently he does have offers from

Cleveland State

Manhattan

Arkansas State

Saint Peters

and, uh oh...

K.e.n.t State

I'd hate to see him in Flashes pee-yellow & blue for the next four years.

[RowdyZip]

I saw via ESPN Facebook posting that CCCHS lost the state championship, in part, due to a (bogus) technical called on Lillard for hanging on the rim after a dunk. It reminded me of that Zeke fast break dunk a couple of years ago. Even though there was no one underneath him, he needed to hang on to the rim because of his forward motion. Would've ended up flat on his back if he just let go.

But I digress, the tech call and conversion of free throws allowed the game to go to OT where CCCHS lost by 4.

[GJGood]

I saw via ESPN Facebook posting that CCCHS lost the state championship, in part, due to a (bogus) technical called on Lillard for hanging on the rim after a dunk. It reminded me of that Zeke fast break dunk a couple of years ago. Even though there was no one underneath him, he needed to hang on to the rim because of his forward motion. Would've ended up flat on his back if he just let go.

But I digress, the tech call and conversion of free throws allowed the game to go to OT where CCCHS lost by 4.

I saw the game. Of course its only my opinion but I thought the technical was clearly deserved. He not only hung on the rim but pulled himself up and swung his legs out horizontally. If he had just hung and dropped it may not have been called. It was the showboating nature of it that drew the 'T'. In fact when he landed he immediately looked at the official on the baseline half expecting that he was going to call the 'T'. He didn't, however, an official behind the play did.

The one with Zeke a few years ago against NDSU in the BracketBusters game was more of a 50/50 call in my opinion. It almost looked like Zeke would have crashed his head into the backboard had he not held onto the rim on that occasion.

[RowdyZip]

I saw the game. Of course its only my opinion but I thought the technical was clearly deserved. He not only hung on the rim but pulled himself up and swung his legs out horizontally. If he had just hung and dropped it may not have been called. It was the showboating nature of it that drew the 'T'. In fact when he landed he immediately looked at the official on the baseline half expecting that he was going to call the 'T'. He didn't, however, an official behind the play did.

The one with Zeke a few years ago against NDSU in the BracketBusters game was more of a 50/50 call in my opinion. It almost looked like Zeke would have crashed his head into the backboard had he not held onto the rim on that occasion.

That's fair. The only angle given on ESPN was from behind the play and it didn't at all appear excessive, but a view from the side of the hoop would probably provide a completely different perspective. Just the same, one of those instances, in my opinion, where its better for an official to not affect the outcome of a game. A T on a dunk is a very subjective call (as evidence by varying opinions on the Zeke dunk). Stinks for the kid even worse.

[Dave in Green]

I recall watching the Zeke technical video pretty carefully and also this one on Antwon, and to me they are very similar. Both players were on fast breaks when they went up for their slams and both grabbed the rim to stop their forward momentum for safety reasons. That's what made their bodies stretch out parallel to the floor. That's different from a player standing under the basket, taking a step or two, slamming and using their arms to pull their body up. I really think officials need to differentiate between a player's momentum carrying their body up, which is a safety issue, and a player without momentum pulling himself up, which is showboating unless there is another player standing directly under him. Here's the exact rule from the NCAA rule book:

Section 4. CLASS B TECHNICAL INFRACTIONS

Art. 1. A technical foul shall be assessed to a player or a substitute for the following infractions:

f. Grasping either basket in an excessive, emphatic manner during the officials’ jurisdiction when the player is not, in the judgment of an official, trying to prevent an obvious injury to self or others.

Antwon's own description fits what I saw in the video:

“I really attacked the rim hard on that play, and was high in the air,” Lillard said. “I got to the rim so fast, I wasn’t going to be able to land. It was kind of difficult for me. As I swung on the rim, it was kind of difficult for me to come down. I didn’t want to tweak an ankle or tear something. The referee has the job to make the call that he thinks is right, but I feel he definitely made the wrong call.”

[Blue & Gold]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/ohio-state-championship-controversial-call-cleveland-central-catholic-antwon-lillard

USA Today article on the dunk.

[Dave in Green]

The ref said "he pulled himself up." No he didn't. If he had pulled himself up his arms would have had to bend at the elbows as when doing a pullup. The USA Today video clearly shows that his arms did not bend at the elbows but remained at a consistent angle throughout the hang time. It was purely his forward momentum that pulled his body up. The video clearly shows that the ref mistook the momentum that caused his lower body to swing up for pulling himself up. The rule needs to be clarified as it is currently too open to misinterpretation.

[RowdyZip]

The ref said "he pulled himself up." No he didn't. If he had pulled himself up his arms would have had to bend at the elbows as when doing a pullup. The USA Today video clearly shows that his arms did not bend at the elbows but remained at a consistent angle throughout the hang time. It was purely his forward momentum that pulled his body up. The video clearly shows that the ref mistook the momentum that caused his lower body to swing up for pulling himself up. The rule needs to be clarified as it is currently too open to misinterpretation.

Good point. The subjective calls are the nature of the beast in any officiating. It certainly speaks to me that the trailing official (on a fast break), and not the baseline official, blew his whistle.

[Dr Z]

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/03/ohio-state-championship-controversial-call-cleveland-central-catholic-antwon-lillard

USA Today article on the dunk.

Thanks for the article with the video. I read the ZN posts before I saw the video. "Didn't pull himself up?"...yeah right

[Roo]

Easy call, that is a T.

Had he not grabbed the rim, he would have been fine. But since he grabbed the rim, he allowed himself to get put in that position. That is a clear T. Anybody that knows how to dunk a basketball could tell you he had no reason whatsoever to grab the rim that way, he was asking for it and got it, deservedly so.

[Dave in Green]

Just wondering if any of the doubters can show us a video of a person "pulling themselves up" without bending their arms at the elbow. Here's a video showing 25 variations of pullups. See if any of them resemble the lack of elbow bending in the Lillard video:

It would also be interesting if anyone could produce a video of someone running at a raised stationary object, jumping up and grabbing it with both hands and not have momentum cause their body to rotate and extend horizontal to the floor. From what I learned many years ago in science class the results are always going to be similar to this video:

[UAZip0510]

I know it's a rule and he should have known, but I think the refs have to let that go. You can't decide a season on a dunk T.

[K92]

Just as soon as we get this conundrum solved can someone work on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin next?

[skip-zip]

As far as the call itself is concerned, I think the greatest thing working against him was that it's pretty easy to say that he was not protecting himself from falling on a player beneath him and hurting himself, which is the real reason why hanging on the rim is ever allowed to begin with.

But, no doubt it was very untimely and game-deciding. And I hate to see that.

[Hilltopper]

Just as soon as we get this conundrum solved can someone work on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin next?

The maximal number of angels -- 8.6766*10exp49 -- is achieved near the critical mass mcrit>1/kD �3.8807*10-34 kg, corresponding to the transition from the information-limited to the mass-limited regime. It is interesting to note that this is of the same order of magnitude as the Schewe bound.

[K92]

The maximal number of angels -- 8.6766*10exp49 -- is achieved near the critical mass mcrit>1/kD �3.8807*10-34 kg, corresponding to the transition from the information-limited to the mass-limited regime. It is interesting to note that this is of the same order of magnitude as the Schewe bound.

[zippyman23]

Easy call, that is a T.

Had he not grabbed the rim, he would have been fine. But since he grabbed the rim, he allowed himself to get put in that position. That is a clear T. Anybody that knows how to dunk a basketball could tell you he had no reason whatsoever to grab the rim that way, he was asking for it and got it, deservedly so.

It's up to the ref's interpretation, but as a high school ref myself, that's not a T in my eyes. Grabbing the rim doesn't make it a T. Hanging on the rim is allowed if done to prevent injury. He did put himself in that position by grabbing the rim, but whether he had reason to grab the rim or not isn't a factor in determining if it was T.

[Dave in Green]

I don't understand why some are ignoring the direct quote from the ref, who specifically said "he pulled himself up" as the reason why he was given a T. Yet the video clearly shows that he did not pull himself up as he never flexed his arms and changed the angle of his elbows. The player said he was trying to prevent an injury to himself, which is clearly within the scope of the rule. I've seen a lot of showboat dunks over the years that clearly deserved a T. When a player makes a full-speed drive dunk and fears he's about to crash land he has every right to grab the rim to protect himself from injury. That's why the rule is written the way it is. The rule doesn't say there has to be someone under the player in order for him to feel he has to grab the rim to protect himself.

[Balsy]

I think the bottom line here is that Cleveland CC had the chance to defend, and had the chance to win it outright in OT. I'm not a ref, but I would have called a T on that. I've seen far less have a T called on. Lillard had an awesome game, he needs to remember the awesome game and not the T.

[GJGood]

Why go with the two hand dunk at all? Just lay the ball in. It is still two points and a two possession game in the waning seconds. Why give the officials any potential reason to call anything?

[Captain Kangaroo]

Lillard had an awesome game, he needs to remember the awesome game and not the T.

What if it were the Zips, and it was the MAC Championship, or an NCAA Tourney game, and the Zips lost the game because the ref called a rim-hang technical? I couldn't imagine how pissed I'd be...

I feel terrible for the kid. BS way to lose the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity at a HS State Championship.

[Captain Kangaroo]

The maximal number of angels -- 8.6766*10exp49 -- is achieved near the critical mass mcrit>1/kD

With you, it's always about KD....

[LZIp]

I wonder if the "whistle-swallowing" crowd feels the same way about the missed travel call against Can't?

Answer: Nope!