Differences [Arth/Bowden]

[UAZipster0305]

8 minutes ago, WD UA 2015 said:

We should have kept the guy that won a bowl game and beat a big ten team.

 

+100x!!!

 

...and the guy who had national name recognition, gave us a MACC appearance, and won the most ever games in a season for an Akron D1 team.

 

Don't forget, we ate a year of a contract for this.

 

Even if the cupboard is currently bare, discipline issues and poor play calling are purely on the coach. While we suffered through some of that with Bowden, his teams were usually competitive and won some notable games and had a small handful of good seasons, particularly after bringing us back from the iCoach abyss. Why do I feel we have returned to that dark time?

[Balsy]

On 9/13/2019 at 7:37 AM, LZIp said:

As opposed to what, Balsy's in-depth arbitrary rankings because you follow so close? Which recruit are you most excited for so far in the 2020 class? Or are you just blindly arguing? You aren't making any points to support you argument other than "TERRY BOWDEN" bud.

 

But saying "Terry Bowden" does matter.  Because that's a known quantity.  That's not arbitrary, that's not me speaking off my ass.  You know it, and I know it.  

Now which recruit am I excited for so far in the 2020 class?  None of them.  I have zero excitement in Akron Zips Football.  My excitement has been completely drained, and it started with the decline of the Bowden years.  I've been burnt too many times by getting excited for whatever recruits to care before they actually show something.

[Balsy]

15 minutes ago, Dr Z said:

If your going to post about Bowden, do it in a Bowden thread. 

 

No.  Any and all comments made about Bowden and Arth in this thread were a logical progression of a conversation of feelings/observations/thoughts directly derived from the UAB game.  I guess all the comments about recruiting and 247 need to move to the recruiting  thread right?  There's like 4 pages of 8 on this thread that have Bowden's name in it.  To say this now is being preposterously pedantic.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Balsy

[Balsy]

This speaks for itself:

 

Remember when the last time we hired a new coach, and it was still the players recruited from the last guy, we saw overall improvement with the team in competitiveness and stats.  I ask you...are we seeing that now?

[Balsy]

4 hours ago, Lee Adams said:

Unfortunately, I am now convinced this will be no more than a 1 or 2 win season for the ZIPS. If You can't show any better than the worst team int he MAC, U are not going to win any games except by good fortune. EMU beat Illinois. Think that tells the tale of how bad this program is at this point. I am out until a win!

 

Yup.  I'm right there with ya.

 

4 hours ago, Lee Adams said:

I do believe Nelson will NOT finish as the starting QB!!! And, probably should not be for a program stating over.

 

Right!?  Let's see Ramart...is he really that bad?  We're already 0-3...

 

2 hours ago, LoyalZIP said:

Culture is improving, non football things are improving, but the football is still bad. Kato isn’t the answer IMO. The whole O line is done after this year IMO. And the defense needs a year or two to get to the average level. My hopes are still high but damn!!! Trust the process & go Zips!!

 

Culture is improving?  I see the same losing Zips. 2-3 more years of this and Arth will be gone.  You HAVE to see SOME sort of improvement from Coach X to Coach Y or you're going to be gone.  Brookheart mired in awful...and Ianello was worse.  Bowden had the same record as Ianello in his first year, but there was an obvious and detectable difference.  There has been ZERO change from the End of the Bowden era to Arth, I'd argue it's worse.

 

2 hours ago, zipsoutsider said:

 There has been zero worth trusting this year. Are you really asking for another year or two? What a joke!

 

Right?  Bowden we needed to get rid of immediately...but Arth he needs 2-3 years.  lolz

[Balsy]

5 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

His first year at WMU was 1-11.  The previous year WMU was 4-8.  Craig Creighton is turning around EMU.  His first two seasons were 2-10 and 1-11.

I realize that until there are marks in the win column it's open season on Arth and AD Williams and Infocision will remain empty.  But those who now defend Bowden who went 1-11 is first year or two, had a peak, and then brought the team back to the bottom of the MAC are simply doing so because they just want to hate.
-

 

PJ Fleck =/= Tom Arth.  You can go ahead and drop that comparison.  PJ Fleck is the exception to the rule, not the rule.  PJ Fleck was an unknown Quantity when he became a head coach, he was a WR coach from Tampa Bay.  Tom Arth is not.  Tom Arth is a 9-13 head coach at FCS Chattanooga.  If we were looking for "innovative" and "new" he was not it.  If he had just come from John Carroll than maybe I'd be on board for the comparison, but he didn't.  He already made the jump to a higher devision and really didn't have much success to speak of.  Bowden (and I really want to stop making the comparisons, but need to because everyone immediately throws him under the bus on this forum) had success EVERYWHERE he coached.  Salem, Samford, Auburn, North Alabama.  Akron is really the only place he seemed to struggle to get regular success as a head coach. 

To me this underscores the problem that everyone always ignores: Akron seems to have a unique problem other schools don't seem to have, and we all want to ignore that for some reason.  It also manifests itself in attendance, and with diehards like us.   

Fun Sidenote:  Tom Arth played QB in 2004 for the Scottish Claymores in Scotland.  Who woulda known?

[zipsoutsider]

Bowden inherited the worst team in D1. At Chattanooga, Arth inherited a team who had a 9-4 record for two years prior to his arrival. 

 

You cannot honestly tell me that what we are seeing is better offensive play calling, either.

 

As @Zipmeister indicated, this might not 9nly be a winless season, but the worst team in D1. Probably a good thing we didnt play a decent FCS team, this year.

 

[NWAkron]

1 hour ago, Balsy said:

 

PJ Fleck =/= Tom Arth.  You can go ahead and drop that comparison.  PJ Fleck is the exception to the rule, not the rule.  PJ Fleck was an unknown Quantity when he became a head coach, he was a WR coach from Tampa Bay.  Tom Arth is not.  Tom Arth is a 9-13 head coach at FCS Chattanooga.  If we were looking for "innovative" and "new" he was not it.  If he had just come from John Carroll than maybe I'd be on board for the comparison, but he didn't.  He already made the jump to a higher devision and really didn't have much success to speak of.  Bowden (and I really want to stop making the comparisons, but need to because everyone immediately throws him under the bus on this forum) had success EVERYWHERE he coached.  Salem, Samford, Auburn, North Alabama.  Akron is really the only place he seemed to struggle to get regular success as a head coach. 

To me this underscores the problem that everyone always ignores: Akron seems to have a unique problem other schools don't seem to have, and we all want to ignore that for some reason.  It also manifests itself in attendance, and with diehards like us.   

Fun Sidenote:  Tom Arth played QB in 2004 for the Scottish Claymores in Scotland.  Who woulda known?

first of all I never said Arth was the reincarnation of Fleck or Jesus Christ for that matter.  My point is that many great coaches have a couple bad years before they get things turned around.  And until he turns things around and starts getting wins and winning seasons, it will be open season on him.   

 

Also, Arth  wasn't the one chirping to Williams, "hey, fired Bowden and hire me." so comparing the two is exercise in futility.   As for the culture at Akron, there's a new president coming in and I'm certain if he wants a new direction for athletics he will make the appropriate big changes beginning with Athletic Director.   However, if the new president sees that the players academics are better, he will likely give Arth time to prove himself.

[zipsoutsider]

6 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

 However, if the new president sees that the players academics are better, he will likely give Arth time to prove himself.

Are you even aware of the change in academics during the Bowden tenure? Zips FB had very graduation rates.

[akronzips71]

Once again going for a no win season.

But somehow he is better than Bowden.

Did Bowden take a bunch of players with him like KD?

Color me confused.

At this point mediocrity is better

[LoyalZIP]

Don’t love Arth yet and I may never, but I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt for now. 
 

I backed Terry as hard as I could for as long as I could, but man he lost me fast and I don’t see myself ever missing what he and the program eventually turned into. (Not referring to the division championship, ya buzzards, nor do I have to)
 

The biggest difference that gives me hope right now is that this staff was able to sign a higher-rated class than the previous staff pretty much ever did, and that’s without signing a single player before February. That is pretty amazing whether you are a person who is not cutting the new group any slack because you don’t think Bowden should’ve been fired or not. If you can’t agree with that, I’m sorry, but you might as well go be a Kent State fan. 
 

Another difference I see is the lack of FBS coaching experience. The pressure is on like never before, and it helped to have guys like Stroud and Amato here when that group first came in. Their contributions were incredible. That’s the most frustrating thing about this group to me. 
 

Off the top of my head, and it’s the last one I’ll list because I can’t think of anymore, I see a team that’s got some fire to it that I haven’t seen in a while. I’m not talking about 3 defensive touchdown fire or wagon wheel fire, I’m talking about desire to play football for 60 minutes. Those early Bowden teams did it, but the last couple of years those teams rarely played hard for 60 minutes. Small thing, but could end up being a big difference maker. 
 

Also, rather irrelevant but could help with recruiting, the way this staff uses social media is really cool. It’s like a D1 program. 

 

Between the two of them I know of one constant, my love for Akron football. It’s a love I know a lot of people on this board (seemingly not all unfortunately) share with me. 

[ZipsVoice]

10 hours ago, LoyalZIP said:

Those early Bowden teams did it, but the last couple of years those teams rarely played hard for 60 minutes.

And I'd have to add, the final season saw a coaching staff (not just Terry) that rarely coached hard for 60 minutes...especially the last two losses, capitulating to BG especially, and OU, not to mention the make-up game vs. SC.

[zipsoutsider]

10 hours ago, ZipsVoice said:

And I'd have to add, the final season saw a coaching staff (not just Terry) that rarely coached hard for 60 minutes...especially the last two losses, capitulating to BG especially, and OU, not to mention the make-up game vs. SC.

Lol, so easy to throw out subjective, impossible to measure, defend, or prove crap comments. Seriously.

[ZipsVoice]

12 hours ago, zipsoutsider said:

Lol, so easy to throw out subjective, impossible to measure, defend, or prove crap comments. Seriously.

Buddy Boy, you have no idea....I saw it with my own two eyes, I witnessed it first hand from my vantage point, and I heard it from the mouths of some of the assistant coaches themselves, so don't set yourself up as such an expert, like all of your posts, you are full of it....

[Balsy]

20 minutes ago, ZipsVoice said:

Buddy Boy, you have no idea....I saw it with my own two eyes, I witnessed it first hand from my vantage point, and I heard it from the mouths of some of the assistant coaches themselves, so don't set yourself up as such an expert, like all of your posts, you are full of it....

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the players/coaches knew by that point that Bowden wasn't coming back.  It was pretty obvious by the epic melt-down of the end of the year...lack of motivation/coaching was a direct result of communication that they were not coming back.  Bowden should have been extended after beating Northwestern (the first Big-10 win in history, and starting 2-0); instead the administration decided to bide it's time.  It was complete disrespect.

[94zipgrad]

48 minutes ago, Balsy said:

 

I think it's pretty obvious that the players/coaches knew by that point that Bowden wasn't coming back.  It was pretty obvious by the epic melt-down of the end of the year...lack of motivation/coaching was a direct result of communication that they were not coming back.  Bowden should have been extended after beating Northwestern (the first Big-10 win in history, and starting 2-0); instead the administration decided to bide it's time.  It was complete disrespect.

I heard they wanted to let him go after 2017 season but he backed into the MAC Championship game & they felt like they couldn’t fire after that but I understand the coaches lost the team & the players weren’t respecting coaches & talking back

 

I’ve said before the South Carolina game was done to make up the other half of Nebraska game so no lost of income & the other half covered Arth’s & Bowden’s buyouts, was a great pick up, just had to be hard to coach for Bowden as he had to know

[DannyHoke]

Bowden was kept around for too long.  No big secret there.  Larry Williams is a Lawyer who is not going to assume much risk, so he waited until the buyout was down and then made the move. I am at a loss when trying to identify anything that has improved since Williams has been in the AD chair. He has brought no one new in and the same people are running the key positions in Zips Athletics who have been there for the better part of the last 30 years.  

 

Obviously the most disappointing move to date was letting Keith Dambrot leave for Duquesne, but a close second has to be the Tom Arth hire. Arth has nothing in his past that leads you to believe that he is going to be able to build a MAC-level D-1 program as a head coach.  His staff is made up mostly of D3 guys, like himself, who have never recruited D1 athletes.  Recipe for disaster?  Time will tell.

 

Rob Ianello went 2-22 overall and 1-15 in the MAC and then AD Tom Wistricil pulled the plug after 2 years.  The program was brought back by Terry Bowden, but his time too had come, and now, here we are.

 

If Arth's season is a resounding 0-12, Larry Williams has got to be shown the door.

 

William's basketball hire John Groce (31-34) has killed off any remaining momentum from the Keith Dambrot era.  

 

Zips Men's Soccer is 0-5 despite paying the coach the 4th highest salary in America.  No way soccer ticket sales are justifying that expense. But at least we have strong Swimming/Diving and Track & Field teams.

 

 

[kreed5120]

18 minutes ago, DannyHoke said:

Bowden was kept around for too long.  No big secret there.  Larry Williams is a Lawyer who is not going to assume much risk, so he waited until the buyout was down and then made the move. I am at a loss when trying to identify anything that has improved since Williams has been in the AD chair. He has brought no one new in and the same people are running the key positions in Zips Athletics who have been there for the better part of the last 30 years.  

 

Obviously the most disappointing move to date was letting Keith Dambrot leave for Duquesne, but a close second has to be the Tom Arth hire. Arth has nothing in his past that leads you to believe that he is going to be able to build a MAC-level D-1 program as a head coach.  His staff is made up mostly of D3 guys, like himself, who have never recruited D1 athletes.  Recipe for disaster?  Time will tell.

 

Rob Ianello went 2-22 overall and 1-15 in the MAC and then AD Tom Wistricil pulled the plug after 2 years.  The program was brought back by Terry Bowden, but his time too had come, and now, here we are.

 

If Arth's season is a resounding 0-12, Larry Williams has got to be shown the door.

 

William's basketball hire John Groce (31-34) has killed off any remaining momentum from the Keith Dambrot era.  

 

Zips Men's Soccer is 0-5 despite paying the coach the 4th highest salary in America.  No way soccer ticket sales are justifying that expense. But at least we have strong Swimming/Diving and Track & Field teams.

 

 

Welcome to the board. It's nice to have another thoughtful person on the board who backs their opinions up with facts. I too wasn't thrilled with the Arth hire. I'm just cheering for him to succeed because I want to see the Zips do well. Groce kind of inherited a mess of a team as everyone who was on Dambrot's team pretty much either graduated or transferred. I'm giving him this season to show some actual results. For the sake of the program as a whole I hope we do see improvement this year as I believe Groce still has 4 years left on his deal and no way the University is going to eat 3 of those.

 

I think you did bring up a good point about Larry Williams that I haven't see many people talk about. I feel it's a given at this point that the Zips football program is going to finish at or near the bottom of the MAC this year. If Zips basketball has another middle of the pack finish, I wouldn't be surprised to hear more talks of wanting Larry gone. I'm not sure how many years he has left on his deal.

[Balsy]

6 hours ago, 94zipgrad said:

I heard they wanted to let him go after 2017 season but he backed into the MAC Championship game

 

Then the people running The University of Akron are dumber than they already appear to be.  You don't fire the most successful coach in Akron D-I history, with two years remaining on his contract when your university is in as dire a financial situation as it is.  No wonder UA is a disaster the mindless are running the asylum.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Balsy

[Balsy]

1 hour ago, kreed5120 said:

Welcome to the board. It's nice to have another thoughtful person on the board who backs their opinions up with facts.

 

What are you smoking that the new guy has some how added all of these "facts" to the conversation that other people haven't brought up/mentioned/discussed before?  Nothing more than conjecture just like EVERYONE else.

[kreed5120]

39 minutes ago, Balsy said:

 

What are you smoking that the new guy has some how added all of these "facts" to the conversation that other people haven't brought up/mentioned/discussed before?  Nothing more than conjecture just like EVERYONE else.

I'm not sure what your problem is. First off, I was being nice welcoming a new member. Next I haven't seen people calling for Larry Williams to be put on the hot seat. Maybe they have and I just haven't seen. I found his post well put together to display his argument. 

[94zipgrad]

50 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

I'm not sure what your problem is. First off, I was being nice welcoming a new member. Next I haven't seen people calling for Larry Williams to be put on the hot seat. Maybe they have and I just haven't seen. I found his post well put together to display his argument. 

@kreed5120 don’t waste your time, Balsy has crossed over to the no common sense zone, can’t talk to him anymore 

Edited September 18, 2019 by 94zipgrad

[akronzips71]

Three straight blowouts.

Great start.

I could do just as well, I will gladly take the job for half the pay.

In fact, I have a pension and social security and Akron is cheaper to live than New York.

I will take the job for $1000 a week in season.

[Lee Adams]

It seems pretty apparent that the AD wanted to go with younger coaches hoping for a better long term return than SUB .500. OK!  Then lets not compare b.ball and football. Two completely different situations. I am not going to assume that Arth and Co. are going to win a MAC champeenship. But I hope so! I didn't assume JD and Co. were going to win a MAC. NONE OF U DID! If u haven't figured it out by now, this is the sports life at U of A.. If U do not like it there needs to be a more drastic solution. Figure out what it is!

See U at the game on Saturday! Right?!

[Lee Adams]

On 9/18/2019 at 11:28 AM, 94zipgrad said:

I heard they wanted to let him go after 2017 season but he backed into the MAC Championship game & they felt like they couldn’t fire after that but I understand the coaches lost the team & the players weren’t respecting coaches & talking back

 

I’ve said before the South Carolina game was done to make up the other half of Nebraska game so no lost of income & the other half covered Arth’s & Bowden’s buyouts, was a great pick up, just had to be hard to coach for Bowden as he had to know

He is getting paid. No tears here!