Butler and The Zips

[Captain Kangaroo]

The purpose of this thread is to open the discussion of how close, or far away we are to becoming a "Butler." What did Butler do in the tourney that the Zips can go to school on? What magic/advantage does Butler have that the Zips will simply never have?

Joe Dunn says Steve McNees is one of the premier point guards in the mid-west. Would he start for Butler?

How would Brett McKnight's shot selection work in Coach Brad Stevens offense?

When Butler comes to the Wollstein Center this winter, are you thinking about taking the family up the Cleveland to check them out? I am. Which, I guess, makes me "Joe Butler?" Does that example hit home as a microcosm of what UA needs to do to to fill those remaining 2,500 empty seats @ the JAR? Do something that captures Joe Akron's imagination? Idiot alert - Please don't be stupid and take this as "The Zips need to make the NCAA Finals to get the JAR attendance up??!" If you are that stupid, please spare us the insight to your thoughts.

I think there is a lot of Zips-related hope to be garnered from Butler's run. And OU's win over Georgetown. And George Mason's Final Four. And K.e.n.t.'s Elite 8.

I also think that intelligent Zips basketball fans got a harsh dose of reality watching the game last night and seeing what great mid-major basketball looks like.

What did you learn from watching Butler that you can relate to the Zips hoops program?

[johnnyzip84]

Two things come immediately to mind.

1) I never ONCE got the impression during their entire run that the Bulldogs don't absolutely LOVE playing for Brad Stevens. In addition, these kids all seemed to be having FUN while nearly pulling off the unthinkable. I am NOT implying that KD needs to go. But I am saying that I don't always see the "fun" aspect of the game while watching the Zips. Maybe I'm not close enough to the program, but it seems to me that the "fun" part of the equation at UA could be raised up a notch or two.

2) It would REALLY be nice if one of our recruits suddenly and unexpectedly grew a few more inches before they set foot on campus.

[skip-zip]

I just simply want to see us do enough just to get INTO the tournament on a yearly basis. Butler would have certainly been there, even if they did not win their conference tournament, and being in that king of position should be a reasonable short-term goal.

In term of conference limitations, our situations are similar. This is how their formula apprears to me. And it's pretty simple.

1) Scheduled several power-conference opponents OOC.

2) Were fortunate enough to win some of them. (you can only win them if you play them)

3) Dominated conference play.

4) Took the great news of the growth of their program to the recruiting trail.

[ZachTheZip]

Rasor posted Butler's formula to winning on his blog.

I think Akron needs to change two things. They need a go-to scorer on offense, and they need to play up to their own athleticism.

The go-to scorer is supposedly Brett McKnight, but he doesn't do very much scoring and plays terrible late in the game. I think our go-to guy should be Zeke. Don't know what to do on offense? Pass it to Zeke and let him put it over the defense. of course, he needs to actually be on the court for that to happen.

The team is athletic, but the play style doesn't take advantage of it. Dambrot's still running the game like he has a bunch of slow, plodding players at every position. Our guards can burn the defense, Zeke can run, the forwards can run. But they don't. They walk up the court and let the defense set up against them.

[ZachTheZip]

Butler was ranked #11 in the pre-season. What does it take to get that kind of respect before you make the big run?

[Dr Z]

On top of enjoying a great college basketball game, I couldn't help feeling extremely jealous of Butler last night. If the goal is a ten (1 out of 10) and Butler is the goal, I think we are at a 4 or maybe a 5. I was so envious of the dribble penetration that Butler produced to get open looks at the hoop and put Duke's big men in foul trouble. Well run offense, crisp passing, drive, kick out, quick ball movement, get the open look. Very intelligent shot selection. VERY jealous of that. The defensive ball pressure that they exhibited was fantastic. With the emphasis that our staff puts on defense, I would expect that kind of play on our defense. Congratulations to Butler, but to me that game was a harsh slap in the face at how much work is ahead of our program. Good luck to the staff in getting it done. I'll be watching from the JAR next year again.

PS All year long I envisioned us using Zeke on the inbound pass the way Duke used their big man. That seems like taking candy from a baby to me?!?!

[skip-zip]

Rasor posted Butler's formula to winning on his blog.

I think Akron needs to change two things. They need a go-to scorer on offense, and they need to play up to their own athleticism.

The go-to scorer is supposedly Brett McKnight, but he doesn't do very much scoring and plays terrible late in the game. I think our go-to guy should be Zeke. Don't know what to do on offense? Pass it to Zeke and let him put it over the defense. of course, he needs to actually be on the court for that to happen.

The team is athletic, but the play style doesn't take advantage of it. Dambrot's still running the game like he has a bunch of slow, plodding players at every position. Our guards can burn the defense, Zeke can run, the forwards can run. But they don't. They walk up the court and let the defense set up against them.

I would never describe us as an "athletic" team. In fact, I think many teams in our own league are more athletic than us.

For the most part, I also don't believe we have guards that can "burn" defenses off the dribble.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Rasor posted Butler's formula to winning on his blog.

...

The team is athletic, but the play style doesn't take advantage of it. Dambrot's still running the game like he has a bunch of slow, plodding players at every position. Our guards can burn the defense, Zeke can run, the forwards can run. But they don't. They walk up the court and let the defense set up against them.

Point 1 - Mike posted his opinion on Butler's winning formula, not Butler's winning formula. His opinion has some holes (like everyone's).

Point 2 - How fast did Butler push the ball up the court? They walked it up every time. And let the defense set up every time. The speed at which a team gets from inbounding the ball, to half court is a worthless number.

Butler is patient, and gets a quality look on virtually every offensive possession. They dribble-penetrate. They kick the ball out for open 3's. They crash the boards. They run an offensive clinic on virtually every possession. Does the ball go in every time? No. But they give themselves the best chance to score on every possession.

[Zipgrad1990]

While watching Butler in the last couple of games I noticed they have one thing in common with the Zips - long droughts of not making a field goal. However, while for the Zips that would mean no points, at least Butler got to the free throw line for a few points during each drought. Also during these stretches they don't give up many points either.

And one big difference - Butler plays great Defense, much better than the Zips. Last night's game was the first one in the tournament where one of Butler's opponets exceeded 60 points and they only did it by 1. I'm not sure how much of this is coaching and how much is having good defense players. They do use the Miami style of working the shot clock on offense so that is part of it too.

You would think it would be easier for a school like Akron to build up a good basketball program faster than Butler. We have lower academic standards and a much bigger student population (which should lead to more alumni support). However Butler doesn't have to split resources with a football team so maybe the main focus being on basketball helps too.

[Quickzips]

Couple of things that struck me last night:

Attitude: Butler didn't come out cocky, but they didn't come out scared or intimidated either. They understood the magnitude of the game and the challenge of the opponent and they readily accepted it. You never got the impression that Butler didn't think they belonged there or even that they felt like they had to prove themselves. They never panicked. Duke blocked a shot on the way to the rim, no problem, we'll get 'em on the rebound or the next possession. Duke got an easy one off an inbounds play, no problem, we'll get the points back and then shut them down their next possession. The Zips rarely give you that kind of an attitude when faced with a big game.

Guard Play: Nobody from Butler really stood out (with the exception of maybe Mack) in the backcourt the way that Armon Bassett or David Kool did against us, but their guys were still darn impressive. They are all tough, athletic and the know their roles and play them well. Part of it is also Stevens ability to know what roles each of his guys fits into and molding them for that role. To answer one of Captain's earlier questions. No, there is no way that Steve McNees would be playing major minutes at PG for Brad Stevens.

Coaching Demeanor: A couple of times you saw Stevens discussing things with the refs and he was almost constantly communicating with his players, but there was never the over the top, nearing a technical displays of emmotion and arguing that you see a lot from KD and, quite frankly a lot of other coaches. The same can be said for Coach K although he is sometimes a little more emotional. Thinking about it, you look at the great coaches at the pro level and at the college level so many of them adopt this cool demeanor. Roy Williams, Coach K, Phil Jackson, Greg Popovich. Guys who have been around a long time and won consistently. Not really sure if you can make anything out of that or not, but it is interesting.

[BirdZip]

In replying to CK's original question, the first thing I asked myself was "What were Butler's results in the years leading up to this one, and how do we compare to that?" Since I'm not an expert, I just went to ESPN and looked at their last several years:

Year----------Record------Postseason

2009-10--------33-5----------NCAA Championship Game

2008-09--------26-6----------NCAA First Round

2007-08--------30-4----------NCAA Second Round

2006-07--------29-7----------NCAA Sweet 16

2005-06--------20-12---------NIT Second Round

2004-05--------13-15---------None

2003-04--------16-14---------None

2002-03--------27-6----------NCAA Sweet 16

I believe Brad Stevens came in in 2007-08, so the first thing that comes to mind is that after his first 2 season's, ZNO would have been calling for his firing since he clearly wasn't the coach to take them the next step and they were in fact moving backwards. Beyond that, I'd say we're about where they were in 2005-06, but we're stuck there. The question to me is can we get two more key players (or maybe one more marquis Zeke-type player) and take the next step.

Also looks like in 2005-06 is where they started mixing in some bigger names in the OOC schedule.

We're a good ways away from where Butler is this season. We're not that far off, though, from where they were when they started their run.

[UAZip0510]

We DON'T have a player with this resume:

- Can create his own offense

- Is good for 15-20 pretty much every night

- Can successfully be a "Go-to" guy late in games

We have:

- A talented center (Zeke)

- A solid combo guard (McNees)

- Solid role players (McKnight, Cvetinovic, Hitchens)

- Some athleticism (Marshall, Egner, and the 4th recruit should provide this going forward)

[Dave in Green]

It all starts with the coach being better organized and prepared than those he's coaching against, and leveraging that into getting the most out of the players he has to work with. As good as KD is, he could learn a lot from studying Brad Stevens' approach. The most insightful look into what I think makes Butler so good was in a New York Times piece. I'll include a few quotes. But it's well worth reading the whole story at the link below:

Brad Stevens is a believer in statistical analysis, which after heavily influencing baseball is making its way into basketball. At home, he pores over statistics almost as much as he does film in preparing game plans. He refers to the 6-foot-3 forward Willie Veasley as his team’s Shane Battier, the Houston Rockets player whose role as a facilitator is not often reflected in box scores but has made him a darling of the statistical set.

The result is a team that is not gifted athletically and starts only two players taller than 6-3 but that could outrebound Kansas State by 12. And force Syracuse into 18 turnovers. And hold each regional opponent to a season-low point total, neither reaching 60 points.

“Yeah, definitely,” Kansas State forward Curtis Kelly said when asked if the Wildcats had underestimated Butler. “I didn’t think they were that good, especially defensively. But they disrupted our offense with their pressure.”

Two things have been noticeable about Butler in the N.C.A.A. tournament — the Bulldogs are very well prepared for their opponents, and they do not rattle easily.

“We know everything we need to about our opponents, all their tendencies are broken down,” the sophomore guard Ronald Nored said. “I honestly believe every time we go on the court, we’re the most prepared team in the country.”

That preparation translates into confidence, and it is what the Bulldogs, who have won 24 consecutive games, credit for their success when the game is in the balance.

NYT link

[ZippyforPresident]

I think a significant difference between this year's Zips squad and Butler has to do with the mental aspect. i.e. preparedness, focus, not getting rattled when things aren't going your way, always believing that you can win and never doubting your ability. For example, last night Matt Howard got into some foul trouble early, but I didn't see him complaining or whining or sitting on the bench with his head down. He stayed in the game and stayed mentally focused. This years Zips squad looked miles away from reaching that level of focus. Maybe some of that has to do with inexperience, but I will say this much, some of the freshman last year looked a lot more focused last season than they did as sophomores this season.

Butler doesn't make nearly the amount of mental errors that cost a team possessions which subsequently provide the opponent with easy baskets and open looks. Butler obviously understands the game plan, this years Zips squad always seemed to show up unprepared as if showing up to class without preparing their homework the night before. I will give credit where credit is due and think that McNees and the Seniors showed up prepared and focused for most games and didn't get rattled over things that happen essentially every night on the floor.

The problem is that on the Zips squad this season people refer to that level of focus as "leadership" but on Butler's squad it's merely the norm. They play like a team and while it is evident that some players on the Zips do show up prepared, the old adage remains true; a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. And when you've got Nikola screaming at an official and Humpty letting some opponent get him in an uproar and seeing red, and various others walking up the floor when they miss a shot instead of getting back on defense and focusing on getting the ball back you're not gonna beat many quality opponents.

I guess a good way to sum it up would be that Butler came to work every night and didn't take anything for granted. The Zips just seemed to think that they could ride last year's tourney appearance to another one.

I know the life of a student athlete is a busy one and a total balancing act and don't mean to call anyone out for not trying or not wanting to win. That's not my intention at all. I just think that inexperience played a factor as well as some easily controllable things that once exposed and addressed, people can make a conscious effort to correct and learn from them. It's all part of growing as a person, a player, and a team.

Good luck in 2010-2011. I'm looking forward to the renewed focus and dominant attitude of Akron Basketball.

[Z.I.P.]

On top of enjoying a great college basketball game, I couldn't help feeling extremely jealous of Butler last night. If the goal is a ten (1 out of 10) and Butler is the goal, I think we are at a 4 or maybe a 5. I was so envious of the dribble penetration that Butler produced to get open looks at the hoop and put Duke's big men in foul trouble. Well run offense, crisp passing, drive, kick out, quick ball movement, get the open look. Very intelligent shot selection. VERY jealous of that. The defensive ball pressure that they exhibited was fantastic. With the emphasis that our staff puts on defense, I would expect that kind of play on our defense. Congratulations to Butler, but to me that game was a harsh slap in the face at how much work is ahead of our program. Good luck to the staff in getting it done. I'll be watching from the JAR next year again.

PS All year long I envisioned us using Zeke on the inbound pass the way Duke used their big man. That seems like taking candy from a baby to me?!?!

I'm with you on the above ZMan. If I could make one request, I'd ask KD to hire Brad Stevens as Offensive Coordinator. Our defense isn't that far behind -- sometimes equal to Butler, but we have a long way to go offensively.

I'm looking forward to next December, when the Bulldogs come to the Isles. Not to Keith: There's one spot left in the event!

http://www.diamondheadclassic.com/

[Zipmeister]

In response to the Capt's original questions: How close are we to Butler? You know when you look the wrong way though a pair of binoculars how far away things look? That's how close we are to Butler. How far away are we from Butler? If you think of DI basketball talent/performance on a circular continuum, we are almost right next to them.

[Blue & Gold]

Wow, quite the field.

Diamondhead Classic participants:

Baylor

Butler

Florida State

Hawaii

Mississippi State

San Diego

Utah

TBA...

Sounds good to me! If given advance notice, I'd try to make this trip.

P.s. What's San Diego doing taking one of the spots? Like they need a break from their lousy weather?! Lol

[tpsjugglerdude]

When Butler comes to the Wollstein Center this winter, are you thinking about taking the family up the Cleveland to check them out? I am. Which, I guess, makes me "Joe Butler?" Does that example hit home as a microcosm of what UA needs to do to to fill those remaining 2,500 empty seats @ the JAR? Do something that captures Joe Akron's imagination? Idiot alert - Please don't be stupid and take this as "The Zips need to make the NCAA Finals to get the JAR attendance up??!" If you are that stupid, please spare us the insight to your thoughts.

I went up and watched them at the Wollstein THIS year when they were ranked 15th maybe. It was a good basketball. I recommend going up for some good midmajor bball. The tickets we purchased were for the 2nd row of their student section (they knew we were students they just never said of who!)

PS-I was rooting against CSU. B)

[Captain Kangaroo]

Glad to see Terry Pluto reading my posts!! Thanks for checking in, Ter'!

Two peas in a pod....

And the guy with the Tom Gaffney-diagnosed "Persecution Complex" chimes in with --

Akron's Dambrot offered this, "The only downside is it may raise some unrealistic expectations."

He means alumni and administrators saying: "If Butler can do it, why can't we? And maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four."

[Blue & Gold]

Wow, I sure prefer Gary Waters' quote to KD's.

"I have the main pieces in place - a great arena, the support of the president and athletic director. Now we just need to get the players."

-Gary Waters

"The only downside is it might raise some unrealistic expectations... Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four."

-KD

[Zip_ME87]

Wow, I sure prefer Gary Waters' quote to KD's.

"I have the main pieces in place - a great arena, the support of the president and athletic director. Now we just need to get the players."

-Gary Waters

"The only downside is it might raise some unrealistic expectations... Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four."

-KD

Check your facts...I believe "Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four." was not part of KD's quote. That was Terry Pluto's inference.

However, I disliked KD's quote as well. "The only downside is it might raise some unrealistic expectations."...if you don't believe that you can ever win the Championship, then you never will.

To be fair, I believe Gary Waters can be more upbeat because he has a few advantages..."a great arena" (which allows him to play majors at home) and no football program (which allows more money to be funneled into basketball). Akron had a huge opportunity in the mid-80's to make a name for itself in basketball, but the powers that be flushed it in favor of D-1A football. Now we have a $61M football stadium and a 3-9 football team that plays in it. In football, Akron has played for and won 1 MAC championship with a 5-3 conference record. In basketball, with no new facilities, we've competed in the MAC Tourney Championship game 4 years in a row. Yes, we've only won 1, but we've been there 4 years in a row. Yes, basketball needs to improve, but to do so, the University and alumni need to commit to it.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Now we have a $61M football stadium and a 3-9 football team that plays in it. In football, Akron has played for and won 1 MAC championship with a 5-3 conference record. In basketball, with no new facilities, we've competed in the MAC Tourney Championship game 4 years in a row. Yes, we've only won 1, but we've been there 4 years in a row. Yes, basketball needs to improve, but to do so, the University and alumni need to commit to it.

When I was at the basketball golf outing, during the Q & A session a guy asked KD (a set up, "softball" question of the year, with added $40million dollar exaggeration) -- "How do you feel about the football program getting a $100million dollar stadium, when you are playing in an old arena. And all you've done is win 20 games year-in-year-out, and you're coming off an NCAA Tourney berth?"

Dambrot's reply is irrelevant. To me, what is relevant, is the basketball vs. football mentality that the guy exuded. The fact that he's baiting KD to bash the Zips football program was beyond shameful.

Memo to "Basketball Guy":

* The football team is the only program that can draw 30,000 people to a game. Basketball's best draw is 5,500.

* The football team is the only program that can net $700,000 by playing an away game at Penn State

* The football team sacrifices it's coach's record by playing a lot of essentially unwinnable BCS-level road games, to get cash for the Zips Athletic Department.

* The Zips football program played in a total dump of a stadium for the past 25 years

* Most importantly - Infocision Stadium is Zips Basketball Guy's only ticket out of this God-forsaken MAC Conference. Without it, you're watching home-home series with the Eastern Michigan's of the world for the rest of your life.

This post isn't a rant against Zip_ME87, who is my buddy. But his post brought to the surface a complaint that's always bugged me.

Basketball guy needs to quit directing his anger at Zips football, and find another scapegoat...villain...whatever you want to call it...for the basketball program's shortcomings.

It is proven that a 20-win, MAC Champion Zips men's hoops team will draw, on-average, 3,000 fans. That ain't football's fault.

Blame Dambrot, who considered this season a "rebuilding year" even though he only lost 1 player from an NCAA Tourney qualifier, and brought in a highly-touted 7-footer to replace him on the roster.

Blame the soft schedule, that excited absolutely no one.

Blame the lack of eye-catching wins over marquee teams (Florida State was long, long ago)

Blame the team that won 24 games, yet got waxed by pretty much every decent team they competed against.

Blame our lethargic approach to home games (remember when we NEVER lost at the JAR?)

Blame the lack of a "star," must-see player.

Blame the JAR team shop, who doesn't sell Zips Basketball replica jerseys (we wouldn't want little kids wearing such things to games, or around town, would we?)

Blame the $3.00 hotdogs and understaffed concession lines (even with our weak crowds)

Blame the lethargic blue hairs that seem to prefer staying home and watching "The Golden Girls" reruns to watching Zips hoops

Blame the University for never successfully formulating, and following through with, a plan to get students to the games

Blame the tragedy that is The Tommy Evans Lounge (what did poor Tommy ever do to get his name associated with it...whatever it was, it must have been really awful)

Blame Marketing for lack of interesting promotions (boy, weren't halftimes a hoot this season?)

Dambrot promised a brutal off-season for his returning players, in an attempt to toughen them up for 2010-11. It will be interesting to see if Winstrcill matches that change-of-approach with the other aspects of the basketball program such as Marketing and Promotions.

There is a laundry list of basketball-related things proven to coma-tize Joe Akron. I don't want to see them again.

If I do see them again, don't blame the football program.

And as a final note of clarification - I attended 7 football games this year, and 20+ basketball games. And 7 soccer matches. Between season tickets and donations, UA is into my pocket for about $3,000 this past athletics season. I love Dambrot. I also love Zips football, and tailgating.

If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers.

Big changes are needed. No one should be happy with a 1/2 empty JAR.

[xu9697]

Most of you have mentioned the key factors. I do think defense is the key, along with Gordon Hayward truly being a special player.

Butler has never "wowed' in attendance. Under 7,000 this year, and even with OSU, Xavier and Siena never had a sellout (all around 9,000 in a place that holds 11,000).

Indianapolis is a great town, and Hinkle Fieldhouse truly is a special and unique place. Both those items help somewhat in recruiting, and Butler is a nice campus in residential area. Indiana has great b-ball talent, and maybe Butler has been helped by IU and even PU (until the last couple years), being down a bit.

Butler's run vs. Mason's run are different. Butler could do it again, but I doubt Mason ever sniffs a Final 4 again. Definitely finding a way to be a program that comes close to Butler should be the goal, but they really are a pretty special case considering the league they play in. Gonzaga is, of course, similar. But, for Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, Memphis and maybe a couple others that are similar (Siena?), it truly is about dominating your conference first, then advancing at least to the Sweet 16. That is how you get noticed and how you get to be a program of some ilk.

[Valpo Zip]

Dambrot should be ashamed of making such silly comments as of downsides of Butler making it to the finals.

For some reason, i am starting to feel that all KD does is looking for excuses in everything. First it is the fans, second the other teams who will not come play us in the JAR, and then it is Butler because they mannaged to win... It is getting old.

[zippy5]

Gordon Hayward reminds me a lot of Nate Linhart.