Akron Vs. Buffalo....Senior night

[zippy5]

Abreu was out of control last night. There's a point where the drive and dish is nice, and a point where it's so stupid to put your head down and drive to the rack every single time---without the dishing part of "drive and dish."

[Dave in Green]

Abreu was out of control last night. There's a point where the drive and dish is nice, and a point where it's so stupid to put your head down and drive to the rack every single time---without the dishing part of "drive and dish."

It would be stupid if a player did that every single time. Of course, Rico didn't do that. Far from it. He had 4 assists in 15 minutes -- more assists per minute played than any other Zips player.

What's the deal here? Are we playing "I'll match your silly McNees exaggeration and raise you a double silly Rico exaggeration?"

Very disappointing to see a Zips fan forum turn into a Zips player trashing exercise in the middle of a big win streak where the team is performing at its highest level in a long time.

[zippy5]

Abreu was out of control last night. There's a point where the drive and dish is nice, and a point where it's so stupid to put your head down and drive to the rack every single time---without the dishing part of "drive and dish."

It would be stupid if a player did that every single time. Of course, Rico didn't do that. Far from it. He had 4 assists in 15 minutes -- more assists per minute played than any other Zips player.

What's the deal here? Are we playing "I'll match your silly McNees exaggeration and raise you a double silly Rico exaggeration?"

Very disappointing to see a Zips fan forum turn into a Zips player trashing exercise in the middle of a big win streak where the team is performing at its highest level in a long time.

hyperbole dave, hyperbole. let's at least be real here, I love this winning streak as much as anyone, but he was out of control more times than not. I realize we're here to support our players, and having someone that wants to drive with the ball is refreshing, we haven't had that in a while...but this isn't a fantasy land where we just pretend all our players are perfect out there either. just saying, he's a freshman, and i'd like to see him improve in that area.

[RowdyZip]

Wow. I was unaware this board was populated by teenage girls. "My favorite boy is better than yours!"

[Spin]

Someone correct me. Were we not talking about the development of players, strengths and weaknesses of guys like Marshall and Euton.

And it turned into someone taking it as a personal attack? Is this golden boy a senior, who we really don't expect to develop much in the few weeks he has remaining of college?

I need to know who the untouchables are before I do any more analysis. Don't wanna piss on anyone else's feel good-lets sing the Barney song thread.

[Dave in Green]

hyperbole dave, hyperbole. let's at least be real here .....

I agree. Let's be real here. Realistic comparison of what we think different players do better or worse than others can be interesting. Hyperbolic criticism of players that is not realistic is not to be taken seriously.

For example, here's a pair of real stats that make McNees and Rico look both better and worse than the other:

Assists Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .09

Abreu -- .19

Turnovers Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .04

Abreu -- .11

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than twice as many assists as McNees, but McNees has less than half as many turnovers as Rico.

Here's another pair of contrasting stats:

Steals Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .02

Abreu -- .07

Fouls Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .06

Abreu -- .10

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than three times as many steals as McNees, but McNees commits fouls only about half as often as Rico.

Being real about this is to admit that there's no way anyone can watch the games, compare the stats and come to a reasonable conclusion that one of these two players is head and shoulders above the other in all aspects of the game.

[Dr Z]

[ZachTheZip]

Those stat comparisons confirm to me what I already thought: McNees doesn't do anything as a PG. Attempting more assists would lead to more turnovers. Attempting more steals would lead to more fouls. McNees doesn't do those things. Abreu does.

What exactly does McNees do? He attempts shots, which is what a SG does.

Some people see a player who is careful with the ball and doesn't foul, I see a player who doesn't pass and doesn't go after the ball.

[Zip Watcher]

You guys can keep bickering about what Steve is and isn't all you want. I think it's simpler than you're making it:

I see a winner in a Zips uniform.

I see a guy who has generally done what the coaching staff has asked of him. And at times willed his team to win.

I see a guy who delivered us a MACC title 2 years ago. A guy who shoots lights out at the Q.

Stevo has been clutch for the Zips for the past 3 seasons. We've not had many guards that are better in the past 15 years. I can probably count those on one hand. We've had dozens of guards who aren't fit to carry his gym shoes.

Thanks for your meritorious service to the Zips Nation Steve.

B)

Go Zips!

[MDZip]

Alphabetically, Steve will ALWAYS be second to Alex Abreu.

[Hilltopper]

Alphabetically, Steve will ALWAYS be second to Alex Abreu.

Channeling Zipmeister Huh?

[zippy5]

hyperbole dave, hyperbole. let's at least be real here .....

I agree. Let's be real here. Realistic comparison of what we think different players do better or worse than others can be interesting. Hyperbolic criticism of players that is not realistic is not to be taken seriously.

For example, here's a pair of real stats that make McNees and Rico look both better and worse than the other:

Assists Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .09

Abreu -- .19

Turnovers Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .04

Abreu -- .11

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than twice as many assists as McNees, but McNees has less than half as many turnovers as Rico.

Here's another pair of contrasting stats:

Steals Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .02

Abreu -- .07

Fouls Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .06

Abreu -- .10

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than three times as many steals as McNees, but McNees commits fouls only about half as often as Rico.

Being real about this is to admit that there's no way anyone can watch the games, compare the stats and come to a reasonable conclusion that one of these two players is head and shoulders above the other in all aspects of the game.

dave, my post had nothing to do with steve. just a simple observation that abreu is a little out of control. take it easy pal

[GoZips]

hyperbole dave, hyperbole. let's at least be real here .....

I agree. Let's be real here. Realistic comparison of what we think different players do better or worse than others can be interesting. Hyperbolic criticism of players that is not realistic is not to be taken seriously.

For example, here's a pair of real stats that make McNees and Rico look both better and worse than the other:

Assists Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .09

Abreu -- .19

Turnovers Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .04

Abreu -- .11

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than twice as many assists as McNees, but McNees has less than half as many turnovers as Rico.

Here's another pair of contrasting stats:

Steals Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .02

Abreu -- .07

Fouls Per Minute Of Playing Time

McNees -- .06

Abreu -- .10

So for every minute on the floor, Rico gets more than three times as many steals as McNees, but McNees commits fouls only about half as often as Rico.

Being real about this is to admit that there's no way anyone can watch the games, compare the stats and come to a reasonable conclusion that one of these two players is head and shoulders above the other in all aspects of the game.

dave, my post had nothing to do with steve. just a simple observation that abreu is a little out of control. take it easy pal

Looking from a better angle ... it appears that Abreu is more agressive than Steve. I think that is a good

thing. Steve is just fine. Abreu is the future happening now. Abreu ignites the team. Steve stabilizes

the team. There are times for each style. I say, utilize them both.

[tpsjugglerdude]

Looking at those stats I bet that Alex will contribute more int he next 3 years. But he will also make more turnovers and foul in that same time span than Steve.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Looking at those stats I bet that Alex will contribute more int he next 3 years. But he will also make more turnovers and foul in that same time span than Steve.

You'd be surprised how a point guard's turnovers can diminish after their freshman season.

[Dave in Green]

[dave, my post had nothing to do with steve. just a simple observation that abreu is a little out of control. take it easy pal

I wasn't just addressing you, but was presenting statistical data for all to see that the situation was not as dire with either of the two players as some of their critics might think. I think everyone would agree that Abreu plays a little more out of control than McNees.

Looking from a better angle ... it appears that Abreu is more agressive than Steve. I think that is a good thing. Steve is just fine. Abreu is the future happening now. Abreu ignites the team. Steve stabilizes the team. There are times for each style. I say, utilize them both.

Very nicely stated. I couldn't agree with you more.

You'd be surprised how a point guard's turnovers can diminish after their freshman season.

At the risk of boring those who don't care about numbers, looking at McNees' turnover percentage stats from his freshman through senior seasons shows just how much a PG can improve:

Turnover Percentage

26.1% -- 2007-08

21.1% -- 2008-09

16.2% -- 2009-10

14.6% -- 2010-11

Abreu's current turnover percentage of 26.3% is right on top of McNees' 26.1% in his freshman season. If Rico improves his turnover percentage at the same rate as McNees did throughout his Zips career, and if he continues to improve on assist percentage and steals while avoiding fouls, he has the potential to be an amazingly good PG over the next 3 seasons.