Gonzaga of the East

[Dave in Green]

The lead story in the Sunday New York Times sports section this morning reminded me of a discussion we've had on this forum many times in the past: Wouldn't it be great if UA could become the Gonzaga of the East in college basketball? Unfortunately, the NYT story brings out the same realities we've found in the past -- that the level of commitment and resources required to do this exceeds anything anyone could reasonably expect UA to put into its basketball program. The NYT story, headlined Nothing 'Mid' About Gonzaga, is well worth reading in its entirety. I'll include a few quotes from the story and a link to the online version below:

..... At this small Catholic university in the Lilac City, Few did something many deemed impossible at the outset: he constructed a major program in a midmajor place, one that should, with its win Saturday against Portland, ascend to the No. 1 overall ranking this week for the first time.

The Bulldogs host opponents in their palatial arena and travel by private jet. Their staff budget and recruiting budget and Nike shoe contract are, if not on the same block, at least in the same neighborhood as bigger universities, in major conferences, with longer histories, more tradition. .....

..... In the ensuing years, Gonzaga (29-2, 16-0) helped transform college basketball, which seems as balanced now as ever. Some of that depth resulted from programs that followed the Gonzaga blueprint, that turned jobs once considered steppingstones into destinations. Think Butler with Brad Stevens, Virginia Commonwealth with Shaka Smart or New Mexico with Steve Alford.

Butler’s athletic director, Barry Collier, said Gonzaga provided the model for these midmajor-to-just-major transformations. The Zags showed universities that could not invest as heavily or at all in big-time football that in basketball, at the right place, under the right circumstances, with the right resources, it could be done, and without the raft of early departures suffered by the more established programs. Butler even advanced to the championship game, twice, bolstering the trend.

“You don’t necessarily have to match every dollar,” Collier said. “You have to be in the neighborhood in order to consistently compete. That comes with a cost, but you have to be willing to invest to expect anything sustainable. That’s an important philosophic position.” .....

..... When guard Kevin Pangos grew up in Canada, his mother regularly picked the Zags in the family tournament pool and often won. When Calvary played in Japan, the malls there carried Bulldogs jerseys. Several former players, including Ronny Turiaf and Robert Sacre and Austin Daye, play in the N.B.A.

The growth allowed Gonzaga to strengthen its nonconference schedule, so much so that Few joked that the Zags “can easily schedule ourselves into an eight-game losing streak.” This season, Gonzaga beat Oklahoma State, Kansas State, Clemson, Baylor, Washington State and West Virginia, all programs with which it matches wits — and resources. .....

..... The current Gonzaga team is, in Few’s words, the most balanced he has ever coached. Its leading scorer, Kelly Olynyk, whom Few described as “cerebral” and “deliberate,” redshirted after his sophomore season and returned with a post game to match his size. Its roster features players from Canada, France, Germany and Poland. Its rotation includes a former walk-on (Mike Hart), the son of a local legend (David Stockton, son of John) and two 7-footers, Olynyk included. .....

Story Link

[GP1]

One thing articles like this never point out is there are two ways for a little known university to get good at a sport.

1. A sport that does not require a lot of players and is the primary focus of an athletic department in terms of interest and funding. We have a football program that has 80+ scholarship players and everything that goes along with the cost of those players from feeding them to the number of coaches it takes to coach them. Equipment costs for football are huge. A basketball program, on the other hand, requires fewer players and fewer coaches.

2. Get good at a sport other than football, basketball or baseball. Soccer at UofA is a good example of that. It isn't one of the big three American sports so with some good coaching and a pipeline of foreign players you can get good. Hockey is the same way. Miamioh has had good teams recently and has good coaching and good Canadian players playing for them.

In closing, I'm not interested in being Gonzaga. I like who we are and we have a damn good basketball team with a lot stacked against us. The major difference between us and them is when they are presented with an opportunity to make a huge splash nationally, they perform and take advantage of that opportunity. We need to do the same thing.

[skip-zip]

One thing articles like this never point out is there are two ways for a little known university to get good at a sport.

1. A sport that does not require a lot of players and is the primary focus of an athletic department in terms of interest and funding. We have a football program that has 80+ scholarship players and everything that goes along with the cost of those players from feeding them to the number of coaches it takes to coach them. Equipment costs for football are huge. A basketball program, on the other hand, requires fewer players and fewer coaches.

2. Get good at a sport other than football, basketball or baseball. Soccer at UofA is a good example of that. It isn't one of the big three American sports so with some good coaching and a pipeline of foreign players you can get good. Hockey is the same way. Miamioh has had good teams recently and has good coaching and good Canadian players playing for them.

In closing, I'm not interested in being Gonzaga. I like who we are and we have a damn good basketball team with a lot stacked against us. The major difference between us and them is when they are presented with an opportunity to make a huge splash nationally, they perform and take advantage of that opportunity. We need to do the same thing.

Are you contradicting yourself?

I'd LOVE to be Gonzaga. If carbon copying their formula is a proven way to the top, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

[RootforRoo44]

If we want to be big like that, we need to get a big influx of money into the program. There can't be this kind of indecision on the arena. We need a 3 million dollar donation like VCU just received from one donor. Gotta get money.

[LZIp]

Winning in the NCAA tournament gets the program increased donations.

That is the first step if we want to be anything like the other top mid-majors.

[GP1]

Are you contradicting yourself?

I'd LOVE to be Gonzaga. If carbon copying their formula is a proven way to the top, I don't think anyone would have a problem with it.

No. I'm saying I want to be good program in the context of being a MAC school and all of the challenges that go along with it. I don't want to have an athletic department that is a one trick pony.

Where I would like to be like them is in their post season success. Lots of MAC schools have responded to the challenge of making a big splash in the NCAA tournament (Miami, OU and Can't) and we fail to capture that success when presented with the opportunity.

Gonzaga's success can be credited to a lot more than an arena. They have the whole package.

[skip-zip]

Winning in the NCAA tournament gets the program increased donations.

That is the first step if we want to be anything like the other top mid-majors.

You're on the right track.

How about just beating anyone of any real significance at any time? As a program, we still don't have anything that we can call a breakthrough win. I'll take that as a starting point, no matter when it happens.

[skip-zip]

No. I'm saying I want to be good program in the context of being a MAC school and all of the challenges that go along with it. I don't want to have an athletic department that is a one trick pony.

Where I would like to be like them is in their post season success. Lots of MAC schools have responded to the challenge of making a big splash in the NCAA tournament (Miami, OU and Can't) and we fail to capture that success when presented with the opportunity.

Gonzaga's success can be credited to a lot more than an arena. They have the whole package.

Funny. I could have copied the same response I gave to LZip's post.

We have to start somewhere, not just the tournament. I think we could simply just use some big wins, anytime, against anyone, anywhere. That would be a good start. Waiting to get into the tournament to try to make that happen, when we've only been there twice, seems like a very limited strategy to me.

It all comes down to giving us more opportunities. So, I'll keep begging to increase the level of our competition in November and December.

[ksu sucks]

Being Gonzaga of the East isn't a likely reality unless we drop D1 football. I'd be for it, but given the recent investments in the Big Dialer, etc I highly doubt that happens by choice.

[GP1]

Waiting to get into the tournament to try to make that happen, when we've only been there twice, seems like a very limited strategy to me.

I respectfully, somewhat disagree. The biggest splash a mid major program can make is winning games in the NCAA. Nobody remembers December games.

I think we have a good enough team this year to make that happen. In fact, I think the only MAC team that went on an NCAA run and was better than the Zips team right now was the Can't Elite 8 team. Maybe I'm wrong, but this team is better than OU's from last year and the Miami team that had Wally on it. The parts are all there and the team just needs to execute when the make the NCAA Tournament this year.

[skip-zip]

I respectfully, somewhat disagree. The biggest splash a mid major program can make is winning games in the NCAA. Nobody remembers December games.

I think we have a good enough team this year to make that happen. In fact, I think the only MAC team that went on an NCAA run and was better than the Zips team right now was the Can't Elite 8 team. Maybe I'm wrong, but this team is better than OU's from last year and the Miami team that had Wally on it. The parts are all there and the team just needs to execute when the make the NCAA Tournament this year.

I understand what you mean. There's no greater stage to make something happen than the tournament. But at the same time, waiting for the tournament in order to make a move on the national stage would be a pretty narrow focus.

[Dave in Green]

The Zips deserve praise for increasing their OOC SOS every season. RPI Forecast currently projects that at the end of the regular season, the Zips will have the #50 most difficult OOC SOS of 347 D-I teams. So this season the Zips have cracked the top 50. VCU and Butler are two teams on the Gonzaga path. VCU's final OOC SOS is projected at #56 and Butler's at #46. So the Zips' OOC SOS this season is already in line with two Gonzaga-like teams.

The team plan all along has been to ramp up OOC SOS each season along with bringing in higher level players who are more capable of beating higher level opponents. The Zips have been delivering on that, and the future plan is to keep building up in both areas. There's no reason to keep dogging the Zips to raise the level of their OOC SOS. They've been doing it, they're doing it right now and they will continue to do it in the future.

[Captain Kangaroo]

I understand what you mean. There's no greater stage to make something happen than the tournament. But at the same time, waiting for the tournament in order to make a move on the national stage would be a pretty narrow focus.

If we don't win games in the tournament, then why bother trying to make any move on a national stage?

Akron's situation is unique when compared to other "Mid-major Tourney Wonders" of year's past. We are in a similar situation as a Gonzaga or Butler...just with a reasonable coach's salary. Dambrot isn't going anywhere for 10 years. But they've won, and we haven't. Yet.

[lance99]

There's no reason to keep dogging the Zips to raise the level of their OOC SOS. They've been doing it, they're doing it right now and they will continue to do it in the future.

+1000000

Totally correct Dave. They have been raising the level of the OOC SOS. I think that they understood after the 2006-2007 season when the got nothing, they had no choice. How tough will it get? No idea, I hope that they will never do the brutal Miami OOC schedule from a few years ago.

Lets just enjoy the ride!

[odhgibo]

Thanks, DiG. Haven't read the NYT article, but I've seen others on the same topic.

To me, the take away is that D-1 basketball is similar to certain games of chance (skill?): if you don't ante up, you can't play the game, but paying that ante is no guarantee of success.

During the Bracketbuster telecast, ESPN included a graphic about consecutive conference tournament appearances. Akron's 6 are the second longest current streak. Gonzaga, of course, was first with 15(!). I had to look it up to prove it to myself. Not only was it correct, it's also 17-of-18.

Mark Few was preceded by Dan Monson, who left after 2 years as the Zags' HC to take the same position at Minnesota. Monson had been a Gonzaga assistant for nearly a decade before taking the lead chair in 1997, which was near the beginning of the incredible 15-year run. Apparently, he didn't see what was to come and, instead, took off for what looked like greener pastures.

Monson was preceded by a guy who had been there for two decades who had a very good, but not great, record. Other than John Stockton, the best thing that he did was hire both Monson and Few, who were able to take the team to the next level with the benefit of the increased funding.

Butler took a slightly different path to a similar endpoint. Thad Matta had a cup of coffee in 2000-01 before leaving for X and turning the reins over to Todd Lickliter who, after 5-6 seasons, decided Iowa was his greener pasture. Stevens then took things to the next level. The success that they had for a decade upped the fan interest, donations, and sponsorships.

Both programs have had a run of very good coaches, both head and assistants. That seems to be the other prerequisite.

[Dave in Green]

@HS Stripes, the NYT article discusses why Monson left Gonzaga, and how that caused Gonzaga's administration to realize they needed to increase their commitment and resources available to the basketball program to make sure that they held on to their next head coach (Few):

..... “I look back and I think about just how naïve we were,” said Monson, who is now the coach at Long Beach State. “I had to end every press conference by reminding people how to pronounce Gonzaga. We had police escorts. Someone asked if we would go on Letterman or Leno. Matt Santangelo said we were more of a Jerry Springer-type team.”

That off-season, Monson left for Minnesota despite a slew of starters slated to return. He cried when he called Calvary, but the dollars were so different, the gulf in resources so wide, that Monson thought he had no choice.

“That forced the administration to take a long look at why he’d leave,” Calvary said. “I know they had some closed-door meetings.” .....

[odhgibo]

Let's compare/contrast two situations.

• Gonzage -- Monson ... became Gonzaga's head coach ... in March 1997.... While at the helm at Gonzaga, the Bulldogs compiled a 52–17 (.754) record. The 1999 team ... advanced to the regional final (Elite Eight), taking ... eventual national champion, Connecticut, down to the last minute, losing by five points.
  
• [stan] Heath got his first collegiate head coach job at Can't State in 2002. Under his guidance, the Golden Flashes finished with a 30–6 record that year and ... came within a victory of reaching the Final Four before falling to Indiana at the South Regional finals ....
  

So, why did Gonzaga go on to bigger and better things, while Can't State did not? Per DiG's article, Gonzaga's administration decided to invest heavily in the program after reaching the Elite 8 in 1999, even though the team has never gotten past that point since then. Can't State did not and, after one or two recruiting classes turned out to be less than expected, Can't State lost its "on the edge of relevance" status. Gonzaga has remained relevant for over a decade.

The margin of error for mid-majors is thin. Money mitigates much of that risk.

[Dave in Green]

@HS Stripes, and what you say is also verified by the following part of the NYT article:

..... Butler’s athletic director, Barry Collier, said Gonzaga provided the model for these midmajor-to-just-major transformations. The Zags showed universities that could not invest as heavily or at all in big-time football that in basketball, at the right place, under the right circumstances, with the right resources, it could be done, and without the raft of early departures suffered by the more established programs. Butler even advanced to the championship game, twice, bolstering the trend.

“You don’t necessarily have to match every dollar,” Collier said. “You have to be in the neighborhood in order to consistently compete. That comes with a cost, but you have to be willing to invest to expect anything sustainable. That’s an important philosophic position.” .....

[skip-zip]

If we don't win games in the tournament, then why bother trying to make any move on a national stage?

Akron's situation is unique when compared to other "Mid-major Tourney Wonders" of year's past. We are in a similar situation as a Gonzaga or Butler...just with a reasonable coach's salary. Dambrot isn't going anywhere for 10 years. But they've won, and we haven't. Yet.

Try this:

We have 10-15 opportunities EACH YEAR to record a big win during the course of the season.

So far, in the Dambrot era, we've had just 2 opportunities to score a big win in the NCAA tournament.

Even though one of those opportunities provides for a bigger impact, I still have to ask why someone would disregard the much more plentiful opportunity, and focus completely on the very rare opportunity.

Since we've really never recorded any national attention-grabbing win in our D-1 history, you have to start somewhere. I'm sure Butler and Gonzaga both won some big games prior to making an NCAA tourney run.

[morris buttermaker]

Try this:

We have 10-15 opportunities EACH YEAR to record a big win during the course of the season.

So far, in the Dambrot era, we've had just 2 opportunities to score a big win in the NCAA tournament.

Even though one of those opportunities provides for a bigger impact, I still have to ask why someone would disregard the much more plentiful opportunity, and focus completely on the very rare opportunity.

Since we've really never recorded any national attention-grabbing win in our D-1 history, you have to start somewhere. I'm sure Butler and Gonzaga both won some big games prior to making an NCAA tourney run.

I agree no big wins--and so few opportunities (poor scheduling). But I believe Dambrot gets paid for 20 wins, so I have to think he is looking at the sure money--- at least prior to his new contract. That's is or was a problem that has kept us from better schedules and a break through win in my opinion

[Hilltopper]

I agree no big wins--and so few opportunities (poor scheduling). But I believe Dambrot gets paid for 20 wins, so I have to think he is looking at the sure money--- at least prior to his new contract. That's is or was a problem that has kept us from better schedules and a break through win in my opinion

[akronad]

[akzipper]

I'll just point out the obvious. Gonzaga would NEVER lose to Buffalo. Even OhioU won't lose to Buffalo tonight. Playing to the level of our lower competition will never let us ascend to the next level. Play tough against good teams and blow out the cupcakes.

[zippy5]

I'll just point out the obvious. Gonzaga would NEVER lose to Buffalo. Even OhioU won't lose to Buffalo tonight. Playing to the level of our lower competition will never let us ascend to the next level. Play tough against good teams and blow out the cupcakes.

You don't think buffalo would beat the number one team in the country? Get out.

[MDZip]

Even OhioU won't lose to Buffalo tonight.

Yep, no way that game could even be close. OU sneaks out with a two point win (by scoring the last nine points in the game).