Coach Dambrot needs to coach

[1981 grad]

How do you argue with success? I have watched Akron basketball for 20 years. The last 10 have been far better than the previous 10. Remember, Akron did not even make the NCAA tournament since Higgins was the coach back in the 80s. I have seen a lot of great basketball at the Q with KD as the coach.

This year he should have had 2 or 3 seniors that would have made this team very competitive, Alex?, Tree and Harney. I do not believe it was KD's fault that these 3 players did not finish at Akron. Also, numerous other players have transferred to division 2 programs when it was obvious that they did not have division one talent. I do not believe that is unusual in a competitive division one program. We have benefitted from players transferring from other programs when they did not get playing time.

I judge success for a MAC team by making the NCAA tournament or even the NIT. By that standard we have had a successful program under KD. I went to Detroit 2 years ago and realized that for us to win a NCAA game we will need an exceptional athletic team that plays well under pressure. There is always hope for the future based on our young team.

[Dave in Green]

Specifically addressing the 15 or so players in 10 or so years who didn't get to their senior year in the program, the raw number can be concerning when considered by itself without specific details on each instance and with no context of how it compares with other D-I programs.

The first point I would make is that this is not all directly related to player development on the court. There's a mix here of kids who didn't develop to expectations as players and some who didn't develop as model citizens. There are some who transferred out for personal or family-related reasons, and in Steve Swiech's case a student who completed his undergraduate degree before his senior season and transferred to another school that offered the advanced degree he was interested in. So the raw number would need some detailed analysis to categorize the 15 individual cases.

While there may be no accurate, reliable measuring system of a coach's ability to develop players, there is certainly language in every head coach's contract about his responsibility to develop student-athletes both on and off the court. I'm certain that Coach Dambrot's annual performance review involves way more than just his won-lost record, and I would expect it to include reporting on the development progress of every player on the roster. I would also expect each instance of a student-athlete not living up to expectations to be addressed individually and for Coach Dambrot to be held accountable for his role in each instance.

Of course we can all agree that Coach Dambrot doesn't have perfect judgment and makes mistakes like everyone else. He doesn't ace his performance review every season and is expected by UA to improve any areas of concern. Still, UA thinks enough of his overall performance to put him under contract for 10 years, and UA is more aware of more details about Coach Dambrot's performance in the area of player development than we fans can be with our limited access to all the pertinent data.

While I'm concerned about things that appear to be wrong with Zips basketball, considering all of the above I have a fair degree of confidence that UA closely monitors the situation and has found nothing about Coach Dambrot's performance in this specific area that merits a high level of concern.

[skip-zip]

Instead of "player development", maybe the topic should have been changed to "recruiting".

If there is a big concern about the number of people who we never developed into contributing players, maybe the problem is that we didn't do a good job of selecting players with that level of talent in the first place?

[zippy5]

I think it's a good point. Seems like we're "young" every year. When was the last time we really had a senior "class?"

[skip-zip]

I think it's a good point. Seems like we're "young" every year. When was the last time we really had a senior "class?"

Another good point.

I guess the closest thing would be Zeke/Chauncey/Walsh two years ago. We only had one last year, and will only have 2 this year.

[Zip_ME87]

I disagree with the idea that you can motivate professional adults with 'turning up the heat'. I have no doubt in my mind that Dambrot feels plenty of pressure already. To say that he needs outside pressure to make him more successful is to imply that he is coasting or doesn't care.

If he doesn't care enough, then he needs to go.

If he does care, then it's completely disrespectful to him as a professional to apply 'heat'. Rediculous.

Sorry, I completely disagree. This isn't a recruit in boot camp. He is an experienced coach who has turned down other offers to stay here and seek success. Get off your high horse. thanks.

I completely disagree with you. A 10-year contract definitely alleviates pressure that most coaches feel. Couple that with a fan base who is comfortable with where the ZIps are and doesn't question their coach, and there's not a lot of motivation except self-ambition vs comfort. Even the most experienced person needs continuous learning, no matter the profession. That not being on a "high horse".

As far as self-ambition vs comfort, it's completely up to your and my intepretation as to why KD has turned down other offers. $300k+/yr for 10 years for someone in their mid-50's who's been through some ups and downs seems like a great deal to me. No need for risk of any kind at this point. Leaves those of us who want more stuck however. No pain. No gain.

[zen]

I completely disagree with you. A 10-year contract definitely alleviates pressure that most coaches feel. Couple that with a fan base who is comfortable with where the ZIps are and doesn't question their coach, and there's not a lot of motivation except self-ambition vs comfort. Even the most experienced person needs continuous learning, no matter the profession. That not being on a "high horse".

As far as self-ambition vs comfort, it's completely up to your and my intepretation as to why KD has turned down other offers. $300k+/yr for 10 years for someone in their mid-50's who's been through some ups and downs seems like a great deal to me. No need for risk of any kind at this point. Leaves those of us who want more stuck however. No pain. No gain.

Agree to disagree I suppose.

I don't know KD.

But I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that he wants to succeed a great deal more than anyone could ever pressure him into succeeding.

If I'm a man with his experience in his position, I would resent heavy-handed talk and threats more than I would ever be motivated by it. It's pure negativity. It's simply now how greatness occurs.

[Zip_ME87]

Agree to disagree I suppose.

I don't know KD.

But I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that he wants to succeed a great deal more than anyone could ever pressure him into succeeding.

If I'm a man with his experience in his position, I would resent heavy-handed talk and threats more than I would ever be motivated by it. It's pure negativity. It's simply now how greatness occurs.

Agree to disagree, fine. But, I don't understand the "heavy-handed talk and threats" thing. Sorry, if I implied that I thought anyone should go to KD and tell him he should be fired if he doesn't win an NCAA Tournament game in x years or any other such threat. All that I've been trying to say is that I wish Zips fans would stop treading around like he's the diety of basketball. What's wrong with letting him know that we'd like to see more and a plan to get there. No one can guarantee that the Zips can get there, but always making excuses that we're too young, or this and that guarantees we'll never get there.

[Zip_ME87]

I was just commenting on his frank and candid opinion. These days, posts like Ada's are too few and far between and I certainly meant no disrespect by my remarks.

Well thought out critiques are refreshing and provide food for thought, IMO. Sorry for the confusion.

I gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.

[Hilltopper]

This topic makes me chuckle. KD came in and took over a program that except for a couple of years in the mid 80's was a total disaster at the D-1 level. Huggins had a couple of successful seasons but he was smart enough to recognize that with what UA has to offer it would be nearly impossible to compete at a high level in D-1 basketball. After he left we joined the MAC and never even made it to the post season tournament until after KD was hired. 20 tears of losing basketball. The basketball team operates on a meager budget that won't improve until the albatross that is housed at Infocision Stadium starts to produce more revenue. Considering the state of college football, I don't see that happening anytime soon. If Bowden was accomplishing what Dambrot has accomplished, people on this board would be jumping for joy. I guess after a few years of making a bowl game people would be questioning why the Zips aren't competing for the BCS championship.

[zen]

If Bowden was accomplishing what Dambrot has accomplished, people on this board would be jumping for joy. I guess after a few years of making a bowl game people would be questioning why the Zips aren't competing for the BCS championship.

If Bowden, after 9 seasons, and won 66% of his games and been to 8 bowl games but not many wins in the post-season, then people would start becoming complacent with the lack of wins or advancing into BCS bowls and playoffs.

People are never happy with what they got after they've grown to take it for granted.

My brother went to Can't. He has asked me (with exaspiration) how the hell we manage to keep our coach.

Let's not be Can't, or most other mid-major fans, and let's not take what we have for granted.

[morris buttermaker]

I completely disagree with you. A 10-year contract definitely alleviates pressure that most coaches feel. Couple that with a fan base who is comfortable with where the ZIps are and doesn't question their coach, and there's not a lot of motivation except self-ambition vs comfort. Even the most experienced person needs continuous learning, no matter the profession. That not being on a "high horse".

As far as self-ambition vs comfort, it's completely up to your and my intepretation as to why KD has turned down other offers. $300k+/yr for 10 years for someone in their mid-50's who's been through some ups and downs seems like a great deal to me. No need for risk of any kind at this point. Leaves those of us who want more stuck however. No pain. No gain.

Zip_ME87 ... I completely agree with you

[mes102]

I've been a "KD-backer" for many years. Especially when I believe we had back-to-back losses to EMU and NIU, people were panicking. However, I've been swaying more towards "KD-doubter". I think the reason he has turned down other offers is because he is comfortable. I think the ambition of his job isn't gone, but what he thinks about it is gone. I think his idea of doing any damage in the NCAA tourney with Akron has lost some, if not most, of it's fire. He's still wanting to win the MAC, but I don't think he puts much thought after that goal. You never see him talk about it, even when in the NCAA tourney. That's the way he came across in the speaking appearance in Tressel's class. Personally, I think he feels winning the MAC and/or 20+ games won per season will keep the fans happy and keep giving him more contract extensions, which means more comfort.

To add one thing, I would like for KD to keep growing as a coach. That would show me the fire in his belly is still there. Kest has always been a defensive coach. But in 2010, she went to Oregon to learn the WBB offense there. 4-5 yrs later, the team is 9-0, averaging 84.6 PPG, ranked in top 50 in 10 statistical categories in the country, and with only one senior. (Where's the youth excuse? Never mind, not going there...) All this after losing 4000 points, 2000 rebounds, and the all-time leader in assists in program history. You can always learn and be the student of the game. Do we believe KD is? That's where my "doubt" is sneaking in.

[Valpo Zip]

KD will not be fired nor should he. No one is asking for his job and no one is asking for him to be threatened or whatever.

Nevertheless, he should be told that the program has not progressed in the last 5 years. And he should be pressured to hire better assistants. And he should be told that the way he schedules is not acceptable. If I was the AD I will make the seasonal incentives based on the RPI at the end of the year instead of the W-L count. I honestly don't care how many 20 win seasons we have in a row and most importantly I DON'T CARE HOW MANY TIMES WE BEAT PINE BLUFF AND BLUFFTON.

KD did an amazing job pulling the program out of the dumpster it was in during the Hipsher era. We all appreciate that and he deserves all the praise for that. The guy has a very lucrative 10 year contract. Isn't that thanking him enough?

10 years later, can we still not ask for more?

[Dave in Green]

Instead of "player development", maybe the topic should have been changed to "recruiting".

If there is a big concern about the number of people who we never developed into contributing players, maybe the problem is that we didn't do a good job of selecting players with that level of talent in the first place?

Good question, Skip. Of course the obvious answer is that Coach Dambrot tries to attract the highest level recruits he can to the Zips program. Each season he makes offers to players who end up signing with high major programs that annually skim the cream of HS seniors off the top and leave smaller budget mid-majors to fight over what's left. In most cases the selection ends up being a choice between players who haven't clearly shown they can excel at the college level. Some of them make it and some don't. Even the best coaches in the biggest programs don't always get it right. So, yes, I agree that Coach Dambrot doesn't always get it right when choosing which players to sign. Does he get it wrong so often that he deserves special criticism for it? I haven't seen anything to convince me of that.

I do think it's unfortunate that not everyone has had a chance to speak with Coach Dambrot and get to know him a little better as I think that would end some of the wilder speculation and assumptions about him that may have come from misinterpretation of things they've read. I don't pretend to be a close friend of Coach Dambrot, but I've had enough private conversations with him over the years to know that some of the comments that have been made about him on this forum do not fit the man I know. From all I know I believe that he's driven by a single-minded ambition to help build a great Zips basketball program that will reflect well on UA long after he retires. Everything I know about Coach Dambrot tells me that he has a true passion for basketball, UA, his players, his assistants and the whole Akron community, and he sincerely tries to do what's best for all of the above. He's not above criticism. But he deserves thoughtful criticism as opposed to wild speculation and assumptions not based in fact.

[K92]

Sorry to hear about your brother, Zen.

[Hilltopper]

AKPB also plays Valpo, CMU, OU, Michigan St., Houston, Texas Tech and Stanford. Should they be embarrassed too? Or should we play that kind of schedule too, with no home OOC games. Maybe we could use the extra money we would make to pay off the debt from Infocision Stadium.

[zippy5]

AKPB also plays Valpo, CMU, OU, Michigan St., Houston, Texas Tech and Stanford. Should they be embarrassed too? Or should we play that kind of schedule too, with no home OOC games. Maybe we could use the extra money we would make to pay off the debt from Infocision Stadium.

I think there's a happy medium in there.

[Zip_ME87]

He's not above criticism. But he deserves thoughtful criticism as opposed to wild speculation and assumptions not based in fact.

Perhaps it is speculation about player development, but it is not wild speculation and assumptions about KD's statements about the Zips being young and setting the goal to win the MAC and other such things. It's always something. There has to be a time when the goal is more than winning the MAC, and the coach actually pushes the players, staff. etc. to believe. I've talked to Keith Dambrot a number of times. I talked with Caleb Porter a number of times. I've talked with Jared Embick a number of times. I'd like to talk with Jodi Kest as well. The first thing I noticed about Caleb is that he said and believed he could do it when no one else believed. He set multiple goals for his team to stepwise get to the top goal. Jared and Keith are both good coaches, but I don't see the fire I did with Caleb. I'd like to understand Jodi better. I follow her twitter feed, and she tweets and retweets a lot of the things I've been trying to get at here.

https://twitter.com/zipscoachkest

just a few examples

"It takes less time to do a thing right, than it does to explain why you did it wrong." - Henry Longfellow

When a team/organization focuses on solutions instead of complaints their performance rises to a higher level. #nocomplainingrule

Don't settle for "good enough." Good is the enemy of great.

Tough teams aren't fooled by winning, they're able to clearly evaluate areas of improvement, and never lose sight of their standards. #Bilas

If you think you are one of your teams top leaders/players you have to be receptive to being pushed & coached harder than others. –Tom Crean

Every workout, every practice, and every game is a chance to improve. Take advantage.

A good coach will tell you what you need to hear; not what you want to hear.

[LZIp]

It's entertaining reading this board with the favorable/unfavorable bias that posters have to certain programs/coaches.

[UAZip0510]

Players transferring out is more of the norm in college basketball these days. I think it seems different under Dambrot because the recruits have gradually increased in talent. The more talent you have, the greater the battle there will be for playing time. Carmelo is a perfect example - in the Dan Hipsher Era, he would have played all four years. Why isn't he on the team now? Because the Zips recruited two studs in Robotham and Jackson that were going to play ahead of him. There are also guys who greatly developed under Dambrot but left for other reasons. Alex Abreu turned into a damn good PG by his junior season. Tree went from a raw athlete to a polished Player of the Year candidate before he messed up off of the court. Even Nick Harney grew as a player - his off-court issues just got the best of him.

Here are the graduation rates released in 2013. It doesn't fully apply as the numbers are based on four years of data collected from freshmen athletes who entered school between 2003-04 and 2006-07, but it still illustrates Akron is far from the only school bringing in and losing recruits.

WMU - 100

Miami - 79

NIU - 77

Akron - 70

Can't - 65

Buffalo - 64

Ohio - 62

EMU - 60

Toledo - 60

Ball State - 55

BGSU - 55

CMU - 54

[UAZip0510]

Perhaps it is speculation about player development, but it is not wild speculation and assumptions about KD's statements about the Zips being young and setting the goal to win the MAC and other such things. It's always something. There has to be a time when the goal is more than winning the MAC, and the coach actually pushes the players, staff. etc. to believe. I've talked to Keith Dambrot a number of times. I talked with Caleb Porter a number of times. I've talked with Jared Embick a number of times. I'd like to talk with Jodi Kest as well. The first thing I noticed about Caleb is that he said and believed he could do it when no one else believed. He set multiple goals for his team to stepwise get to the top goal. Jared and Keith are both good coaches, but I don't see the fire I did with Caleb. I'd like to understand Jodi better. I follow her twitter feed, and she tweets and retweets a lot of the things I've been trying to get at here.

https://twitter.com/zipscoachkest

just a few examples

"It takes less time to do a thing right, than it does to explain why you did it wrong." - Henry Longfellow

When a team/organization focuses on solutions instead of complaints their performance rises to a higher level. #nocomplainingrule

Don't settle for "good enough." Good is the enemy of great.

Tough teams aren't fooled by winning, they're able to clearly evaluate areas of improvement, and never lose sight of their standards. #Bilas

If you think you are one of your teams top leaders/players you have to be receptive to being pushed & coached harder than others. –Tom Crean

Every workout, every practice, and every game is a chance to improve. Take advantage.

A good coach will tell you what you need to hear; not what you want to hear.

When Caleb Porter took over the Zips soccer team, he inherited a group that had just won two consecutive MAC Championships and just finished off an NCAA Tournament Round of 16 run. The team was already one of the better programs in the entire country.

When Keith Dambrot took over the Zips basketball team, they had just finished a 13-15 season, losing in the 1st Round of the MAC Tournament. The program had not advanced more than one round since joining the MAC.

This isn't to give excuses to Dambrot or to dismiss the greatness of what Porter accomplished here - but it's tough for me to compare the two given where they started. In the first 12 seasons the Zips basketball team played in the MAC, they had three winning seasons. They were 1-7 in the MAC Tournament (they didn't qualify the first 5 seasons). In the 10 full seasons since Dambrot has taken over, they have 10 winning campaigns, 3 MAC Championships, 7 MAC Finals appearances, and are 20-7 in the MAC Tournament.

Dambrot has already taken this program to a much higher level than it was at when he started. That is indisputable. Now the goal is to take it to an even higher level, which I promise you he is trying his absolute hardest to do. He might tell George Thomas the goal is to win the MAC and it might seem like that's all that he's shooting for, but it couldn't be further from what they are trying to do. They're working their tails off to take it to the next level, and I believe in him doing just that.

Final note - 2012-2013 was supposed to be the year it happened. The Diggs suspension and the Abreu arrest killed that from happening, but that team - which won 26 games, the MAC Tournament, and had a Top 25 ranking - with Diggs added and Abreu staying on the team would have absolutely made a Tournament run. I know, coulda, shoulda, woulda, but I think we had our "next level" roster once already, we just didn't see it materialize in the end.

[LZIp]

I dont think Harney developed much, if at all as player, JMO. Talk about a ton of unrealized potential. I won't blame KD for that though. He can only do so much. But here is where you have to look at the quality of character of the guys he is bringing in. (FYI I am much more pleased with the past 2 classes).

[skip-zip]

I do think it's unfortunate that not everyone has had a chance to speak with Coach Dambrot and get to know him a little better as I think that would end some of the wilder speculation and assumptions about him that may have come from misinterpretation of things they've read.

Dave, I think this was a nice response for some people to read. The long version. The version that I did not include in my response.

I just want to touch on a couple of points...

1) I was just wanting to make the point that if people are going to talk so much about a lack of player development, they also need to consider that maybe many of these guys did not have the talent that we thought they did when we recruited them.

2) Yes, I think some opinions from people come without proper knowledge. As I disclosed recently, I am involved with the U and the Athl. Dept. in a number of different capacities. So, I do clearly understand the commitment of our coach, and I do think we are fortunate to have him. But, I certainly don't think he's beyond criticism. Many times, people will criticize out of frustration and desire for us to continue to grow larger as a program. I often even feel the same way.

[Dave in Green]

Skip, I used to get frustrated and upset about the way a few people posted what I thought were unrealistic and unfair criticisms of specific areas of the Zips basketball program about which they knew little. Over time I've come to understand that a lot of that criticism comes out of the frustration and desire of Zips fans to see the program improve even more than it already has on Coach Dambrot's watch to date. I no longer doubt that we're all pulling in the same direction even if we have different ideas about what changes might work better than others.

I'd like to see the conversation continue at a higher level without a few people at one extreme crying that the other side believes Coach Dambrot can do no wrong and a few at the other extreme crying that the other side believes he can do no right. That's just plain silly. Every Zips fan posting here on this subject believes Coach Dambrot has done many things right, and every one of them also wants the program to get even better. We should all discuss the pros and cons of various suggestions without taking offense at each other.