Officiating Thread

[Dr Z]

For posters that like to discuss the games officiating. Critics, who is assigned to the game, security breaches, overall college basketball officiating, who calls the most fouls, who calls the least fouls, whatever you like to discuss that pertains to the striped shirt guys. This is THE place to do it. Enjoy.

[Hilltopper]

In light of your first link, I find it interesting that Bo Boroski hasn't refereed a single game this season.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/referees/bo-boroski

[zipsrule]

Win or lose, this officiating has been awful.

[UAZip0510]

Awful tonight...just awful.

[Dave in Green]

In a 1-point game there are any number of things that could make a difference. The Zips certainly made enough mistakes in the MT game to account for a single point. But the officials also played a role. There were some things about the officiating in this game that deserve specific mention. Two of the refs (Tim Gattis and Zelton Steed) primarily officiate Conference USA games and the third (Jeff Spedoske) primarily Horizon League. One thing I noticed is that most of the questionable calls came from Gattis when he was much further away from the play than the other two officials.

In the middle of the first half when the Zips were fighting back from a deficit, the refs called charging fouls on the Zips on four drives to the basket. That's certainly a good way to discourage a team from trying to take the ball to the basket. Even worse, two of those charging fouls were called on Noah. Then they immediately called a third foul on Noah that appeared to be a minor touch. Calling three quick fouls in less than four minutes on a team's key player is a good way to change the flow of a game.

One call that stood out in its sheer insanity was a palming call on Pat as he backed a defender in on the basket in the midst of a Zips rally. Now this is the third season I've been watching Pat back defenders toward the basket, and he's always consistent in his dribble. There was nothing different about this dribble other than one official chose to make it the only palming call we're likely to see in a Zips game all season.

I would categorize some of the officiating I saw in this game as selective, and I would have said the same thing if the Zips had won. There have been games the Zips have lost where I thought the officiating was fairly even. I don't blame bad officiating for losses, but neither do I ignore questionable officiating whether the game ends in a win or a loss. Win or lose, the officiating was below average in this game.

Did anyone else see other calls that stood out as questionable?

[ZachTheZip]

Did anyone else see other calls that stood out as questionable?

Aside from the charges and Pat's "palming" call, there were more than a few times a Zip was called for a block when they were standing perfectly vertical under the basket with both feet set, and the MTSU ball handler literally jumped into them, making contact while in the air, knocking the Zip down.

Normally that's not something I get too upset over, but when that's how you call it on one end, and then you call a bunch of charges on the other end for the same situation, I start to think that something is fishy.

[Sportsjunkie330]

Awful tonight...just awful.

20-19

[ZachTheZip]

20-19

Give me a break. Even foul counts mean absolutely nothing. They can even be a sign of bad officiating, if the refs want to maintain an even number of fouls even when one team is brutalizing the other.

Fouls called at the wrong time disrupt momentum, like when one team is trying to mount a comeback.

[Sportsjunkie330]

"Officiating Threads" are for excuses.

The officiating tonight did NOT lose the game for Akron....the open back door did.

[UAZip0510]

"Officiating Threads" are for excuses.

The officiating tonight did NOT lose the game for Akron....the open back door did.

Nobody said it lost them the game but it certainly impacted the game.

[Balsy]

DiG, granted I'm not that skilled at recognizing the different fouls all the time...and I've only been following Zips basketball for about 6 seasons...I don't think I've ever seen a palming foul...because I didn't even know it existed and had to go look it up.

[Roo]

Are any you of real referees?

I always tell people, go take the class and get through some middle school games and then come back and critique the officiating.

[Hilltopper]

Gattis made everyone of the crap calls last night. In a 30 second span he nailed Noah for charging and then whistled him for blocking while guarding the MTSU point guard at the other end. In the pivitol final minutes of the the game, that same player bodied up to Noah so hard that he was almost knocked into the backcourt. Gattis was right next to the play but swallowed his whistle.

[Dave in Green]

Are any you of real referees?

I always tell people, go take the class and get through some middle school games and then come back and critique the officiating.

You could also ask if there are any experienced players or coaches here and question why so many untrained people have so many critiques about the players and the coaching.

[LZIp]

The refs were out to get the Zips. Has to be it.

[Dave in Green]

We do have at least one forum member who is an experienced high school ref. HS Stripes has previously offered intelligent insights about officiating but hasn't posted on the forum since last basketball season. I've sent him a PM to let him know his observations and educated opinion would be welcome in this thread.

[UAZip0510]

Are any you of real referees?

I always tell people, go take the class and get through some middle school games and then come back and critique the officiating.

Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean criticism can't come with it.

The refs were out to get the Zips. Has to be it.

I don't think anyone is saying this. But the officiating was wildly inconsistent last night. The Zips shouldn't have put themselves in the position they did, but to say the officiating didn't impact the game - especially the flow of it - is just ignoring the obvious.

[Dave in Green]

The rash of charging calls plus the highly unusual palming (carrying) call against the Zips are especially mystifying considering the change in enforcement of NCAA rules that went into effect last season as documented in this Cleveland.com story:

... And in the post, a rule change that has officials identifying offensive attack before defensive positioning has all but taken away the ability to draw a charge.

Akron basketball coach Keith Dambrot, a member of the NCAA rules committee, said during a recent practice, "I did not think the changes would be this dramatic.'' ...

... Following one scrimmage at Akron with NCAA officials, one referee said of taking a charge in the paint; "if your teammate gets beat, get out of the way." ...

... "We had a power point seminar with 200 bang-bang, block-charge calls from last year,'' one official said. "Last year, those calls were 50-50. Now, maybe 25 out of 200 would actually be charge calls." ...

... "The scrimmage we just had, the (opposing) coach told me 'just put your head down and drive, because it is going to be a (defensive) foul.' That's terrible basketball. ...

... Coaches also counter that while purists say the game has become more physical, current defenses are designed to balance offensive rules no longer seriously applied by officials.

There is no discussion about calling traveling by the offensive player, or strictly blowing the whistle for palming.

No discussion about blowing the whistle on offensive players who tuck the basketball under their arms, like a fullback, and barrel their way to the basket.

No discussion about players changing their pivot foot after catching the basketball, before they shoot. ...

[LZIp]

Just because something is hard to do doesn't mean criticism can't come with it.

I don't think anyone is saying this. But the officiating was wildly inconsistent last night. The Zips shouldn't have put themselves in the position they did, but to say the officiating didn't impact the game - especially the flow of it - is just ignoring the obvious.

Officiating impacts every game. Fans need to worry about things that are under our coaches and players control. Mentioning that 2 of 3 refs are from C-USA and then pointing out that one of those refs were making the questionable calls seems like a hint of blaming refs of some conspiracy theory to me.

Complaining about refs seems to happen almost every single game on here.

[Captain Kangaroo]

MTSU game refs were good. Most of the charging fouls were 100% obvious. One was "iffy."

MTSU moved their feet on defense. They got in good defensive position in the paint, and the Zips plowed into them multiple times.

[Dave in Green]

It's comforting to see some support for the poor refs here. The American concept of people being presumed innocent unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a noble one, and of course someone always has doubts about just about everything that happens.

... Complaining about refs seems to happen almost every single game on here.

This is clearly not true. In the 9 games so far this season Zips fans have only called out the officiating on 2 -- the USC game in Charleston (which the Zips won by 20 points) and the MT game (which the Zips lost by 1 point). Clearly it's not just tied to when the Zips win or lose but when fans see an excess of questionable calls being made, some of which may even be going against the Zips' opponent as was the case in the USC game.

It's even rarer to see officiating so questionable that it generates a separate news story. But that was the case last February when sportswriter Bruce Rader wrote a piece entitled Refs Blow Old Dominion Game vs UTEP. Rader makes the point that coaches and players are held accountable by fans and the media for bad games and officials should be, too:

Players have bad games, coaches have bad games and they are always held accountable by both the fans and the media. Win or lose after the game they meet the press sometimes with a smile, sometimes with their heads hung low.

Referees and officials also at times have bad games, not very often in my opinion, but every once in a while it happens and since they are such a big part of the contest they too have to be held accountable.

So let me say basketball officials Tim Gattis, Greg Rennegarbe and Brent Dugas had a bad night in Norfolk, Virginia tonight. ...

Well look at that. What a coincidence that Tim Gattis happened to be involved less than a year ago in officiating a game in a way that produced the most demonstrative fan protests the reporter had seen in covering 39 years of Old Dominion basketball. An ODU fan site story entitled ODU Fans Deserve a Break from the Three Stooges adds another pertinent point about who the fouls were called on:

... Gattis was even successful in inciting a Jeff Jones technical foul and nearly an ejection. Coach Jones isn’t much for extracurricular activity, this being his first technical in 24 games here at ODU. It’s just not his thing, but three fouls to Richard Ross and Aaron Bacote in 119 seconds is not easy to cope with. ODU’s most important players both went scoreless in 16 foul plagued minutes of action. ...

I hope Zips fan behavior at the JAR never rises to the level that people are tossed out of the building for crossing the line. But I also hope that Zips fans are never stifled in expressing their displeasure over a series of questionable calls. When fans see 5 offensive fouls called in the first half at a time when the NCAA has changed interpretation of the charge/block rule to heavily favor the offensive player, when 3 quick questionable fouls are called on the player who makes the team go (Noah), and when that's capped off with the almost never seen palming call, it would be shameful for Zips fans to sit on their hands and not vocally express their concerns about the quality of officiating.

Refs Blow Old Dominion Game vs UTEP

ODU Fans Deserve a Break from the Three Stooges

[skip-zip]

Instead of just saying "the officiating was awful", I'll focus on a few specific things that bothered me on Saturday.

1) It could NOT have been the case that nearly every time we drove to the basket, it was a charge, and every time MT drove to the basket, it was called a block. That's just not possible.

2) The palming call on Forsythe was just bizarre. Flat out bizarre. Again, if you are going to call it there, then call it the entire game. Or leave it alone.

3) MT loved to jump on the back of Zips players on rebounds. True, it was a physical game. But, other than the one where Nyles grabbed a rebound and was pushed out of bounds, I don't think it was ever called.

[zippy5]

Instead of just saying "the officiating was awful", I'll focus on a few specific things that bothered me on Saturday.

1) It could NOT have been the case that nearly every time we drove to the basket, it was a charge, and every time MT drove to the basket, it was called a block. That's just not possible.

2) The palming call on Forsythe was just bizarre. Flat out bizarre. Again, if you are going to call it there, then call it the entire game. Or leave it alone.

3) MT loved to jump on the back of Zips players on rebounds. True, it was a physical game. But, other than the one where Nyles grabbed a rebound and was pushed out of bounds, I don't think it was ever called.

re: 3) Seems that UA should have figured out the refs weren't calling it and played more physical as well.

[Dave in Green]

re: 3) Seems that UA should have figured out the refs weren't calling it and played more physical as well.

That would be illogical if you consider Skip's point #1, i.e. if the Zips were already consistently being penalized for one thing (charging) where the other team wasn't, why would they believe they could get away with another thing where MT wasn't being penalized (over the back contact on rebounds)?

[skip-zip]

That would be illogical if you consider Skip's point #1, i.e. if the Zips were already consistently being penalized for one thing (charging) where the other team wasn't, why would they believe they could get away with another thing where MT wasn't being penalized (over the back contact on rebounds)?

Not only that, Dave. But in response to Zippy5's solution, I can understand encouraging your players to match another team's physical play, but I don't know any coach who would ever "adjust" by telling his players to go ahead and commit similar fouls just because the other team is not being called for the same fouls. I am certain that Keith would have just wanted the obvious fouls to be called.