Game 26- Bowling Green Falcons

[Hilltopper]

5 hours ago, johnnyzip84 said:

 

I, for one, agree with you. Retain the core (minus Ivy of course), fill in some depth and this thing could get turned around in a big way, and rather quickly.

 

That said, the motto for the 2018-2019 Zip men's hoopsters could be "keeping it close, with Coach John Groce"

Welcome back JZ!

[clarkwgriswold]

40 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

The problem is the recruiting.

Last year he inherited a mess and had to piece together a team.

But so far, all he has given us are LCJ and Cheese. Not bad, not POY

Now in contrast, KD gave us Zeke, Nik, Tree, Big Dog, Walsh, McNees, Reggie, Jake and so on.,

Need size that can shoot.

Until then, we are just going to keep losing.

 

To be fair, none of those types of players were recruited in by KD his first two years.  The freshmen on the 2004-05 team were Walther, Middleton, Goddard, Milum, Kanaan and Sowers.  The 05-06 squad brought in Linhart and Rybak.  I do hope Groce brings in players of the quality of those on your list in the future (and fast). 

[akronzips71]

What about the players he brought from SVSM?

[kreed5120]

20 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

The problem is the recruiting.

Last year he inherited a mess and had to piece together a team.

But so far, all he has given us are LCJ and Cheese. Not bad, not POY

Now in contrast, KD gave us Zeke, Nik, Tree, Big Dog, Walsh, McNees, Reggie, Jake and so on.,

Need size that can shoot.

Until then, we are just going to keep losing.

Dambrot also inherited a roster that had Romeo Travis, Dru Joyce, and Jeremiah Wood. Groce had to pretty much patch a team together as we only had 4-5 scholarship to start with and he wasn't hired until April after pretty much every HS already signed. Because we were pretty much forced to sign a bunch of players in year 1 who frankly weren't good enough to compete at a high level in the MAC in the 1st place, we then had to turn over the team again.

 

I feel now the roster has finally been stabilized enough that we should be in a better position to recruit for the future instead of having to look more towards plugging an immediate need. I feel Xeyrius Williams will be a nice piece for us next year. Riak gets $#!+ on a lot here, but he's one of the  best defensive centers in the MAC. If our guards weren't struggling so bad at scoring, his liability on the offensive end wouldn't be so glaring. 

[clarkwgriswold]

1 minute ago, akronzips71 said:

What about the players he brought from SVSM?

They were there under Hipsher (though KD gets major credit).

[clarkwgriswold]

2003-04 class was Wood, Travis and Joyce.  Pretty solid last recruiting class under Hipsher with KD as an assistant.  

[akronzips71]

2 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

Dambrot also inherited a roster that had Romeo Travis, Dru Joyce, and Jeremiah Wood. Groce had to pretty much patch a team together as we only had 4-5 scholarship to start with and he wasn't hired until April after pretty much every HS already signed. Because we were pretty much forced to sign a bunch of players in year 1 who frankly weren't good enough to compete at a high level in the MAC in the 1st place, we then had to turn over the team again.

 

I feel now the roster has finally been stabilized enough that we should be in a better position to recruit for the future instead of having to look more towards plugging an immediate need. I feel Xeyrius Williams will be a nice piece for us next year. Riak gets $#!+ on a lot here, but he's one of the  best defensive centers in the MAC. If our guards weren't struggling so bad at scoring, his liability on the offensive end wouldn't be so glaring. 

Misses dunks. Misses bunnies.

Just does not know what to do with the ball.

Honestly, Eman played a much better game last night, he looks like he is improving

[clarkwgriswold]

akronzips71, I am curious as to where you think the Zips should be in the process right now.  I sense you think Groce is behind and that they should be better at this point.

[kreed5120]

2 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Misses dunks. Misses bunnies.

Just does not know what to do with the ball.

Honestly, Eman played a much better game last night, he looks like he is improving

Riak certainly has ways to improve on the offensive end, but looking at the box score he still finished 3/4 shooting with 7 points, 0 turnovers. I can live with that production considering the value he provides on the defensive end. Frankly, not having him in at the end of the game was a mistake by Groce. No doubt in my mind he would have forced Turner into a more difficult shot attempt at the end with his help defense. Although the way Turner was shooting the ball in the 2nd half, the shot would probably have still found the net.

[akronzips71]

6 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

akronzips71, I am curious as to where you think the Zips should be in the process right now.  I sense you think Groce is behind and that they should be better at this point.

Needs to have a great recruiting class.

KD won with two things:

SIZE

wings who could hit threes.

Right now we have neither.

This season is a shipwreck, the emphasis has to be on the future.

[akronzips71]

2 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

Riak certainly has ways to improve on the offensive end, but looking at the box score he still finished 3/4 shooting with 7 points, 0 turnovers. I can live with that production considering the value he provides on the defensive end. Frankly, not having him in at the end of the game was a mistake by Groce. No doubt in my mind he would have forced Turner into a more difficult shot attempt at the end with his help defense. Although the way Turner was shooting the ball in the 2nd half, the shot would probably have still found the net.

Here is my complaint in a nutshell:

 

How many points did Zeke and BD give us every game on average?

Zeke was 8.5, 10.4, 13.0 his last three years. And he had shooters around him,

Big Dog was 5.4, 13.6, 16.6

What has been our typical losing margin? Between 2 and 6 points?

Production at center would cure that.

And remember, Tree was almost like a second Center

[clarkwgriswold]

With KD, the three point shooting didn't kick in until 06-07 when they were in the top 30 in the country and he played a lot of undersized big men until he got Zeke in 09. 

[clarkwgriswold]

4 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Here is my complaint in a nutshell:

 

How many points did Zeke and BD give us every game on average?

Zeke was 8.5, 10.4, 13.0 his last three years. And he had shooters around him,

Big Dog was 5.4, 13.6, 16.6

What has been our typical losing margin? Between 2 and 6 points?

Production at center would cure that.

And remember, Tree was almost like a second Center

 

KD also had a better base to recruit in inheriting Darryl Peterson, Wood, Futch, Travis, Joyce, Goddard and McFadden.   

 

I too want Groce to get good bigs and better shooters, but his situation is far different than KD's was the first couple of years.

[kreed5120]

13 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Here is my complaint in a nutshell:

 

How many points did Zeke and BD give us every game on average?

Zeke was 8.5, 10.4, 13.0 his last three years. And he had shooters around him,

Big Dog was 5.4, 13.6, 16.6

What has been our typical losing margin? Between 2 and 6 points?

Production at center would cure that.

And remember, Tree was almost like a second Center

 

We're losing because we're 6th in 3PA per game, meanwhile, 320th in 3P%. Riak isn't the one chucking all those 3s. Groce isn't Dambrot. Dambrot used his bigs to create offense for his perimeter shooters. Groce runs a guard dominate offense. The last time time a Groce big averaged double figure points was DeVaughn Washington in the 2010-2011 season. The days of expecting our bigs to hit double figures on a nightly basis are gone.

 

Frankly, it's probably for the best. When the focal point of your offense is 6'10 and weighs 290+, it becomes extremely challenging to win 3 games in 3 nights. 

[ZippyRulz]

7 hours ago, johnnyzip84 said:

 

I, for one, agree with you. Retain the core (minus Ivy of course), fill in some depth and this thing could get turned around in a big way, and rather quickly.

 

That said, the motto for the 2018-2019 Zip men's hoopsters could be "keeping it close, with Coach John Groce"

 

According to the TB Doctrine, we're in the "losing small" stage..

 

 

[akronzips71]

31 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

We're losing because we're 6th in 3PA per game, meanwhile, 320th in 3P%. Riak isn't the one chucking all those 3s. Groce isn't Dambrot. Dambrot used his bigs to create offense for his perimeter shooters. Groce runs a guard dominate offense. The last time time a Groce big averaged double figure points was DeVaughn Washington in the 2010-2011 season. The days of expecting our bigs to hit double figures on a nightly basis are gone.

 

Frankly, it's probably for the best. When the focal point of your offense is 6'10 and weighs 290+, it becomes extremely challenging to win 3 games in 3 nights. 

So what you are saying is our style can not win. Need to change the style.

 

[NWAkron]

3 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

So what you are saying is our style can not win. Need to change the style.

 

Anyway...

[clarkwgriswold]

Also, this is the MAC.  The Zekes and Bog Dogs are pretty few and far between.

[NWAkron]

2 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

Also, this is the MAC.  The Zekes and Bog Dogs are pretty few and far between.

Yes.  Lots of revisionist hx and selective memory filling this thread.   Hurley left Oats a pot of gold and KD had some nice recruits already.   BGs situation is a bit more like the Zips this time around 

[clarkwgriswold]

2 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

Yes.  Lots of revisionist hx and selective memory filling this thread.   Hurley left Oats a pot of gold and KD had some nice recruits already.   BGs situation is a bit more like the Zips this time around 

I'm not completely sold on Groce quite yet but his situation and Dambrot's were  considerably different in the players inherited and the situation.  KD had continuity from being on the staff and inherited some talent while Groce had essentially bare cupboards and a late start.  Do I wish they were further along and won these close ones? Hell yes.  But,  Rome wasn't built in a day.  If they don't take a substantial step forward next year, then I'll be far more critical.  In the interim, I reserve my right to pee and moan along the way.

[kreed5120]

18 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

I'm not completely sold on Groce quite yet but his situation and Dambrot's were  considerably different in the players inherited and the situation.  KD had continuity from being on the staff and inherited some talent while Groce had essentially bare cupboards and a late start.  Do I wish they were further along and won these close ones? Hell yes.  But,  Rome wasn't built in a day.  If they don't take a substantial step forward next year, then I'll be far more critical.  In the interim, I reserve my right to pee and moan along the way.

This is my sentiment.

[Blue & Gold]

If we still had Cotton on this team I'm betting we would have won a lot of those close games (with Cotton on this team we may have won those close games comfortably).  On the other hand, with Cotton still with us, the team may have imploded half way through the season.  

 

IMHO Cotton not working out hurt more than one might think & set us back another year.

[1981 grad]

21 hours ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

100% agree. I'll nit pick Groce's decision tonight to not have a rim protector in there at the end, but the hustle and defensive intensity is there night in and night out. It's not his fault the guys don't make shots consistently. I still think we're going to be dangerous into March - where Groce tends to excel. 

In hindsight, Groce should have use our trap defense with our big guys up high.  That way they would not have been able to use the clock.  Groce always uses the trap at the end of the half when the other team tried to hold onto the ball for the last shot.  Considering that we keep losing close games, we need to be aggressive.  

[clarkwgriswold]

1 hour ago, Blue & Gold said:

If we still had Cotton on this team I'm betting we would have won a lot of those close games (with Cotton on this team we may have won those close games comfortably).  On the other hand, with Cotton still with us, the team may have imploded half way through the season.  

 

IMHO Cotton not working out hurt more than one might think & set us back another year.

 

I think Parrish could be a big help right now too.

[zippyfan34]

2 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

So what you are saying is our style can not win. Need to change the style.

 

How many NCAA tournament games did Big Dog play in?  Don’t get me wrong, as I would like a center averaging 15+ a game but to say we can’t without it is just bull crap.