Could you stomach JUCO's, transfers and "troubled" talent?

[Captain Kangaroo]

I see the debate over KD's practice of recruiting 4-year players vs. "other" approaches.Look at the Erick Howard thread. Zips fans throw a fit if the football coach takes one chance out of 25 scholarships on a kid with bad grades. How would they react if hoops coach took one chance out of three or four?The biggest risk KD has taken with a scholarship was Darrel Roberts (bad grades). That's about as risky as getting behind the wheel after 2 Bud Lights.Zips Basketball Guy couldn't handle a JUCO. Or a kid with a "history." He couldn't stomach it.Good to see Jodi Kest use a couple of JUCO's to upgrade her hoops team though. But that must only work in women's hoops?Who was the toughest kid to play under Dambrot? Probably Wood. But Dials...a transfer...would also get a lot of votes.Best player of the Hipsher era? Rashon Brown? Transfer. Or Jamie Bosley? Transfer. Tarver (JUCO)? No. But he kept his nose fairly clean while he was on campus. You can't say he was a bad gamble.Where would Bob Huggins have been without JUCO transfer Marcel Boyce? Interesting debate...

[jupitertoo]

I see the debate over KD's practice of recruiting 4-year players vs. "other" approaches.Look at the Erick Howard thread. Zips fans throw a fit if the football coach takes one chance out of 25 scholarships on a kid with bad grades. How would they react if hoops coach took one chance out of three or four?The biggest risk KD has taken with a scholarship was Darrel Roberts (bad grades). That's about as risky as getting behind the wheel after 2 Bud Lights.Zips Basketball Guy couldn't handle a JUCO. Or a kid with a "history." He couldn't stomach it.Good to see Jodi Kest use a couple of JUCO's to upgrade her hoops team though. But that must only work in women's hoops?Who was the toughest kid to play under Dambrot? Probably Wood. But Dials...a transfer...would also get a lot of votes.Best player of the Hipsher era? Rashon Brown? Transfer. Or Jamie Bosley? Transfer. Tarver? No. But he kept his nose fairly clean while he was on campus. You can't say he was a bad gamble.Where would Bob Huggins have been without JUCO transfer Marcel Boyce? Interesting debate...

I suspect part of KD's reluctance has to do with some incidents with JUCO's/troubled players at CMU when he was there.

[RootforRoo44]

I can't stomach losing...anything else i can handle.

[vmd9]

if it means no more of these embarrassing losses fine...i don't care if we had a team made up of Michael Vick, Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, Donte Stallworth, and OJ simpson, if it means we would actually make the tournament then fine!!! I'm tired of being of being disappointed by every game, and it's even worse when it happens against Can't

[GP1]

I see the debate over KD's practice of recruiting 4-year players vs. "other" approaches.Look at the Erick Howard thread. Zips fans throw a fit if the football coach takes one chance out of 25 scholarships on a kid with bad grades. How would they react if hoops coach took one chance out of three or four?The biggest risk KD has taken with a scholarship was Darrel Roberts (bad grades). That's about as risky as getting behind the wheel after 2 Bud Lights.Zips Basketball Guy couldn't handle a JUCO. Or a kid with a "history." He couldn't stomach it.Good to see Jodi Kest use a couple of JUCO's to upgrade her hoops team though. But that must only work in women's hoops?Who was the toughest kid to play under Dambrot? Probably Wood. But Dials...a transfer...would also get a lot of votes.Best player of the Hipsher era? Rashon Brown? Transfer. Or Jamie Bosley? Transfer. Tarver (JUCO)? No. But he kept his nose fairly clean while he was on campus. You can't say he was a bad gamble.Where would Bob Huggins have been without JUCO transfer Marcel Boyce? Interesting debate...

Please stop making sense.

[skip-zip]

I see the debate over KD's practice of recruiting 4-year players vs. "other" approaches.Look at the Erick Howard thread. Zips fans throw a fit if the football coach takes one chance out of 25 scholarships on a kid with bad grades. How would they react if hoops coach took one chance out of three or four?The biggest risk KD has taken with a scholarship was Darrel Roberts (bad grades). That's about as risky as getting behind the wheel after 2 Bud Lights.Zips Basketball Guy couldn't handle a JUCO. Or a kid with a "history." He couldn't stomach it.Good to see Jodi Kest use a couple of JUCO's to upgrade her hoops team though. But that must only work in women's hoops?Who was the toughest kid to play under Dambrot? Probably Wood. But Dials...a transfer...would also get a lot of votes.Best player of the Hipsher era? Rashon Brown? Transfer. Or Jamie Bosley? Transfer. Tarver (JUCO)? No. But he kept his nose fairly clean while he was on campus. You can't say he was a bad gamble.Where would Bob Huggins have been without JUCO transfer Marcel Boyce? Interesting debate...

And you forgot about Schutz transferring here from Cleveland State. The 1986 OVC title and NCAA tourney appearance would have been nothing more than a crazy dream if these things didn't happen.Please though.....I insist that we separate the debate about "should we accept JUCOs/Transfers" and "should we take a chance on troubled kids". Many good college athletes decide to transfer, or start their careers at JUCOs, for a lot of different reasons other than grades or trouble. Lack of playing time, a coaching change, lack of money, and needing time to grow and develop physically would be a few of those reasons.

[GP1]

Please though.....I insist that we separate the debate about "should we accept JUCOs/Transfers" and "should we take a chance on troubled kids". Many good college athletes decide to transfer, or start their careers at JUCOs, for a lot of different reasons other than grades or trouble. Lack of playing time, a coaching change, lack of money, and needing time to grow and develop physically would be a few of those reasons.

Amen. People who think that all JUCO players are trouble are narrow minded fools.

[Let'sGoZips94]

I can stomach anyone that isn't being recruited by Can't. I would also prefer good character. I just want to start making a run at being a mid-major powerhouse.

[Dave in Green]

Last time we had this discussion (seems like about this time last season), I said I had confidence that KD could find good JUCO players who could meet the character standards that he and UA prefer. I can't see where anyone could have an objection to that, though I've been surprised on this forum before.Maybe give that a chance before throwing the doors wide open to convicted drug dealers, rapists, etc.

[Quickzips]

I don't have a problem with a sporadic JUCO or transfer here or there. But it has to be the right guy. For as much as I am upset about Can't waxing us last night, I couldn't stomach having a team that is made up primarily of JUCO's. Just too much turnover for me. Can't is only now starting to get some production out of Simpson and Henry-Ala and considering the hype he came in with Evans has been at least a mild disappointment for them. But they after two years, each of those guys is gone. Combined with the 4 year guys they are losing that is six rotations players they will lose this year. Can't has managed it, but I don't think very many programs can sustain that kind of turnover. I also don't want an Evans type JUCO. I'll lose a couple extra games a year before I'll watch a team make an NCAA run with a kid who has a rap sheet like that. There is a line for me, and it is well before that.Cap'n brings up a lot of good examples of transfers and JUCO's in the Zips past, but what is the biggest blemish on the program since KD got here? How about transfer student Rydell Brooks being arrested for shooting at the cops? It is a careful line you have to walk.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Cap'n brings up a lot of good examples of transfers and JUCO's in the Zips past, but what is the biggest blemish on the program since KD got here? How about transfer student Rydell Brooks being arrested for shooting at the cops? It is a careful line you have to walk.

Brooks wasn't recruited by Dambrot. Brooks transferred to UA on his own, with the hope of walking on.When I say "transfer" I am talking about a kid who went to a BCS program and didn't fit in. Or the coach left. Etc.Two other nice transfers: K.e.n.t.'s Demetric Shaw & Antonio Gates. They panned out ok.

[Dave in Green]

Going back to the first post, Nick Dials should be the poster boy for transfers. He's recent enough that most everyone here either saw him play or has heard a lot about him. An outstanding player with excellent character. More like that, please.

[Zipmeister]

if it means no more of these embarrassing losses fine...i don't care if we had a team made up of Michael Vick, Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, Donte Stallworth, and OJ simpson, if it means we would actually make the tournament then fine!!! I'm tired of being of being disappointed by every game, and it's even worse when it happens against Can't

What position would you assign to the players on this team? OJ is the obvious choice for point guard because of his slashing ability, but no matter what combo you put them in I think this group lacks the height to be competitive at the division I level.

[tpsjugglerdude]

if it means no more of these embarrassing losses fine...i don't care if we had a team made up of Michael Vick, Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, Donte Stallworth, and OJ simpson, if it means we would actually make the tournament then fine!!! I'm tired of being of being disappointed by every game, and it's even worse when it happens against Can't

What position would you assign to the players on this team? OJ is the obvious choice for point guard because of his slashing ability, but no matter what combo you put them in I think this group lacks the height to be competitive at the division I level.

Well Mike Tyson would be able to cover Singletary.

[Zipmeister]

if it means no more of these embarrassing losses fine...i don't care if we had a team made up of Michael Vick, Tiger Woods, Mike Tyson, Donte Stallworth, and OJ simpson, if it means we would actually make the tournament then fine!!! I'm tired of being of being disappointed by every game, and it's even worse when it happens against Can't

What position would you assign to the players on this team? OJ is the obvious choice for point guard because of his slashing ability, but no matter what combo you put them in I think this group lacks the height to be competitive at the division I level.

Well Mike Tyson would be able to cover Singletary.

In addition to a lack of size this bunch appears to o lack scoring punch. OJ may have improved his ball handling skills with his recent stint in the big house, but only Tiger has developed a reputation of taking the rock to the hole.

[Zip_ME87]

Please though.....I insist that we separate the debate about "should we accept JUCOs/Transfers" and "should we take a chance on troubled kids". Many good college athletes decide to transfer, or start their careers at JUCOs, for a lot of different reasons other than grades or trouble. Lack of playing time, a coaching change, lack of money, and needing time to grow and develop physically would be a few of those reasons.

Amen. People who think that all JUCO players are trouble are narrow minded fools.

+1

[InTheZone]

In football, I would say you should never try to build your program around JUCO's and transfers. That's a disaster waiting to happen. But the dynamics of college basketball are very different. I almost believe that in order to get any truely "special" player in here, we've got to take some chances on JUCO's, transfers, and "bad character" guys. We're not going to get the superbly talented shooting guard with a 4.0 who sings in the church choir. That guy's going to Duke. While in football, there are tons and tons of guys who fall through the cracks and end up on mid-majors just because there's such a mass amount of high school football players and it's very hard to tell how well a guy will develop physically once in college, basketball talent is really cut and dry. You can tell what kind of player a kid is in high school, and the great players are going to the Duke's, UNC's, Kentucky's, Memphis's, and Kansas's of the world. The only talented players that don't are the kinds of kids we're talking about... the kids with academic struggles who end up in JUCO, or the kid who's been picked up by the cops a coulple times for sellng a few ounces. To get the kind of talent in here to be something special at our level we've got to take those risks.

[GP1]

The only talented players that don't are the kinds of kids we're talking about... the kids with academic struggles who end up in JUCO, or the kid who's been picked up by the cops a coulple times for sellng a few ounces. To get the kind of talent in here to be something special at our level we've got to take those risks.

I disagree and your opinion shows a regional bias. It is extremely common out west for kids, athletes and non-athletes to attend junior colleges. It is a cultural difference many from the east don't understand because they are not exposed to it.Probably the second best Zips football player was Vic Green. He was a jc transfer. JT is the best Zip ever and he was an at risk player coming out of high school.One jc player on the basketball team isn't going to sink the ship. A couple impact players on the football team isn't going to shink the ship either. It is too small of a percentage to make a difference.

[Dave in Green]

..... It is extremely common out west for kids, athletes and non-athletes to attend junior colleges. It is a cultural difference many from the east don't understand because they are not exposed to it. ......

Absolutely true. I lived out in California for 7 years and can vouch for that.We try to reach the best conclusions we can based on the knowledge that's available to us. But each of us has limited knowledge. So we are wiser as a group than we are as individuals. But it requires finding people we can trust for good data. It takes time to earn people's trust, and trust can easily be blown by careless actions. Trust is especially hard to build when BS is the language of the land.Another glass of California wine, waiter.

[Dr Z]

Good topic. I considered starting this topic a couple times this year, but I figured most would just point to "we are doing it right", "look at our 20 win seasons" "the program is headed in the right direction" Timing is everything, and this is perfect timing for this thread. To answer you question, YES. Get me a POINT GUARD for next year. THAT is what this team is missing. It couldn't have been more evident than it was Friday night. I refuse to look at any silly stats that say otherwise. Ken+ is more athletic than us, period. I want to beat a good team, not just 20 crappy ones.

[akronzips71]

I may be wrong about this, but I recall that Larry Quarles was a JC transfer who had a huge impact for us back in the Len Paul days.

[ZIPCODE]

I may be wrong about this, but I recall that Larry Quarles was a JC transfer who had a huge impact for us back in the Len Paul days.

+ Brian Westover