Smaller, Leaner athletic program...

[DannyHoke]

15 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

throwing business guys or gals into a athletic or university bureaucracy without any experience can easily turn into a disaster.  I highly doubt Miller would go that way IF he wanted to make a change at the AD position.

 

Look at UA President Gary Millers' last 18 years as a leader in Higher Ed... Can anyone share what all of these schools have in common?

 

University of Wisconsin-Green Bay (2014-2019)

University of North Carolina Wilmington (2011-2014)

Wichita State University (2006-2011)

University of the Pacific (2002-2006).

 

"What's past is prologue"

William Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

 

[DannyHoke]

14 hours ago, Lee Adams said:

What about DII?

 

D2 makes geographical sense.  From 85 to 36 scholarships and salaries across the board are reduced.

 

Cannot think of the current D2 as what a new D2 would resemble, as the landscape is changing.

 

The Big $$$ buy games are going bye bye bye as these were predicated on BIG CROWDS at the games.  No crowd, no guarantee. This is not rocket science folks.  It is funny how many of you think that the MAC is making big $$$ on television rights and sponsorships.  Just ain't so.  ESPN owned Bowl games and ESPN MACtion TV dates all are tied into getting basketball slots on ESPN in the winter along with the championship game is a nice slot.  Very little is any cash flows back to the schools.  That's a fact. 

 

Most of college athletics could well be headed towards CLUB SPORTS status... smarter play as you keep the opportunity to play but reduce varsity mandates.  Unfortunately like GP1s Title IX dream this too is not going to happen quickly.

 

 

 

[GP1]

34 minutes ago, DannyHoke said:

 

Look at UA President Gary Millers' last 18 years as a leader in Higher Ed... Can anyone share what all of these schools have in common?

 

University of Wisconsin-Green Bay (2014-2019)

University of North Carolina Wilmington (2011-2014)

Wichita State University (2006-2011)

University of the Pacific (2002-2006).

 

"What's past is prologue"

William Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

Scott Scarborough came from Texas A&M and he flamed out spectacularly during a period of prosperity in the USA.

 

Miller's ham handed approach to this issue was bad form. My guess is a lot more university presidents are going to be in the same position in the near future.

[UA1987]

3 hours ago, DannyHoke said:

 

The Big $$$ buy games are going bye bye bye as these were predicated on BIG CROWDS at the games.  No crowd, no guarantee. This is not rocket science folks.  It is funny how many of you think that the MAC is making big $$$ on television rights and sponsorships.  Just ain't so.  ESPN owned Bowl games and ESPN MACtion TV dates all are tied into getting basketball slots on ESPN in the winter along with the championship game is a nice slot.  Very little is any cash flows back to the schools.  That's a fact. 

 

 

You may be right that OOC contracts might be more difficult to negotiate, but I think NCAA football will return with huge pent up demand. People want to get out and have a good time and a college football game is a top draw (just a little rosier view).  College football on TV will continue to be a super draw too. OOC contracts going forward (out a few years) will be distant from this pandemic so I believe they will still be intact, for the most part, for the forseeable future. The varsity sports lineup changes being discussed now will most likely be permanent (as far out as you can forecast) however. As part of these changes, I would allocate a few more bucks for football and get some assistant coaches in here that can recruit and help to prepare this team. We could pay for it and help balance the budget with 3 to 4 big pay OOC contest per year (instead of 2 - the new reality). All these OOC games don't have to be Clemson types and a Y-town could be scheduled from time to time like this year (no more Morgan State's). All southern OOC games should be scheduled late in the season, if possible, and northern OOC games early. Western contests anytime (except for AZ - preferably late in season). Goal every year - win the MAC.             

Edited April 28, 2020 by UA1987

[kreed5120]

People are acting as though this pandemic is going to last indefinitely. We already have 2 buy games scheduled between the years 2021-2023 and 1 scheduled in 2024 and 2025. Our 2024 and 2025 schedules still has room for more games. 4-5 years from now this coronavirus thing is going to be a distant memory. Schools like OSU will be having 100k people packing their stadiums and the SEC & B1G will be looking for filler content for their networks. The reason programs like Clemson, OSU, Alabama, etc. pay $1.3 million is because between ticket sales, concessions, parking, tv rights, etc. they're making several times that amount for each home game. They could instead agree to a home and home with another P5 school, but then they'd have to split the revenue ~50/50 instead of keeping the vast majority of it for themselves. The general admission price for an OSU - Akron game is the same as an OSU - Missouri game. It's the scalpers who profit on the secondary market for those higher profile games, not the schools. 

 

2021

at Auburn

at Ohio State

 

2022

at Michigan State

at Liberty

 

2023

at Temple

at Indiana

 

2024

at South Carolina

 

2025

at Nebraska

Edited April 28, 2020 by kreed5120

[ZippyRulz]

1 hour ago, GP1 said:

 

Miller's ham handed approach to this issue was bad form. 

 

How so?

 

[GP1]

32 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

Schools like OSU will be having 100k people packing their stadiums and the SEC & B1G will be looking for filler content for their networks. The reason programs like Clemson, OSU, Alabama, etc. pay $1.3 million is because between ticket sales, concessions, parking, tv rights, etc. they're making several times that amount for each home game. They could instead agree to a home and home with another P5 school, but then they'd have to split the revenue ~50/50 instead of keeping the vast majority of it for themselves.

Only OSU isn't selling out their stadium for these games. Norte Dame isn't selling out games. Wake Forest doesn't sell out games. South Carolina doesn't sell out these G5 games.

 

The face value of my Wake Forest vs. Clemson/Notre Dame/UNC tickets are much higher than for Utah State. They can charge more for ooc games against other P5 teams. The tickets are chump change anyhow. The real money is in television rights. Selling television is the key.

[GP1]

4 minutes ago, ZippyRulz said:

 

How so?

 

He could have quietly requested the AD to do this then discussed the findings once he had more information. There are employees who make their living at UofA who are more uncertain about their futures and have no idea what's going on.  Also, imagine how other schools can use this to recruit against us. 

[NWAkron]

3 minutes ago, GP1 said:

He could have quietly requested the AD to do this then discussed the findings once he had more information. There are employees who make their living at UofA who are more uncertain about their futures and have no idea what's going on.  Also, imagine how other schools can use this to recruit against us. 

I'm certain the university staff knew this well before Miller made the announcement to the community.  Further, all schools at Akron's recruitment level are in the same boat.  

[Captain Kangaroo]

Football attendance article.

 

I'd think Ohio State could still find a way to pay the Zips $1.3 million despite selling 101k tickets instead of 102k.

[UA1987]

23 minutes ago, Captain Kangaroo said:

Football attendance article.

 

I'd think Ohio State could still find a way to pay the Zips $1.3 million despite selling 101k tickets instead of 102k.

Your're on the money (intended) - Ticket prices range from $250 to about $35 at OSU so let's average at $100 per ticket. 100,000 X $100 = $10,000,000 per game and $1,000,000 in concessions. Yep, they can afford it and that's just ticket sales and concessions. I think even mid-level FBS programs like the Cyclones make out pretty good at the ticket office (chain rattle).       

Edited April 28, 2020 by UA1987

[DannyHoke]

Some thoughts from above....

 

The goal every year should be to win the MAC... Ya think?  Do you feel this is not the goal now.  Gimme a break.

 

Just playing a few buy games every year is not going to solve this riddle sportsfans.  Akron is cutting 20% of the athletics budget on top of an earlier announced cut, which may or may not be, wholly or in part of this 20%.  Even then, Akron is in for change.  

 

This is not solely based on COVID 19... It's the fact that Akron Athletics is irrelevant to the current students, and the alumni do not support the athletics program through attendance or donations at a level commensurate with the current spending.

 

Akron wants to be D1, and if you think that being able to play a buy game and get destroyed by Clemson this fall is going to help increase the value of our Akron diploma, you are high.  Getting beat by 50+ points makes you a joke.  Clemson is paying you to come get beat.  It's called a GUARANTEE GAME because 99% of the time these are WINS.  Smart people do not base their business plans on the hope of the 1% occurrence.

 

Ohio has too many schools in the higher ed system and would be best served by unloading 1/2 of the schools into the private sector.  Akron, Kent, Cleveland State and Youngstown State, all in one geographical quadrant of NE OHIO is overkill.  Fewer people are going to 4-year colleges and  Cuyahoga Community College is $70 per credit hour and has as good, if not better job placement than Akron.  That's a fact.  Akron's campus has exploded with a lot of unneeded stuff that jacks costs up and thus the enrollment is down. Non athletes are not coming to Akron because of some pole vaulter on the track team was in the olympics or because a decade ago we won a NCAA title in men's soccer.  

 

The only people that care about Zips athletics are those of us who played, and even then, along with the die hard fans, there are not 2,000 season ticket holders for football and we do not average more than 3,000 fans per game for men's basketball. (2703 announced).

 

Akron would be best served by selling/trading off Infocision Stadium to the City of Akron, allowing that venue to be operated by the City, and getting the debt off the books.  Pay rent to play football games in the stadium and be done with the overhead.

 

Move to D2 and call it a day.  No way that  this program is worth what is put into it and taking away from the educational mission of the institution.

 

 

 

[kreed5120]

The city isn't going to buy Infocision or take over the debt payments. The city taxpayers balked at building a downtown arena and that would have been much more versatile and easier to get events for than Infocision would be. Who would even rent it out besides Akron and the occasional high school game? At $100k per rental the city would need to rent out the stadium 50 times per year just to break even. That's not even factoring in annual maintenance or paying staff to manage the property.

 

There is next to no demand for renting it. If there was Akron would be doing it to reduce its burden. Perhaps if Blossom didn't exist it would be useful for outdoor concerts, but Blossom does exist.

[clarkwgriswold]

44 minutes ago, DannyHoke said:

 

Akron would be best served by selling/trading off Infocision Stadium to the City of Akron, allowing that venue to be operated by the City, and getting the debt off the books.  Pay rent to play football games in the stadium and be done with the overhead.

 

 

 

Who would want a decaying, depreciating, unmarketable white elephant?  If I live in Akron there's no way in hell I'd ever support the city or school district taking that on.

[GP1]

2 hours ago, Captain Kangaroo said:

Football attendance article.

 

I'd think Ohio State could still find a way to pay the Zips $1.3 million despite selling 101k tickets instead of 102k.

I wrote a great post about this and lost it. In summary:

OSU could afford to pay out $5 million.

 

P5 schools not as flush as OSU are getting more creative and it doesn't include G5.

 

Wake and UNC play football in ooc games and fans love it. This was the best part.  It's about creating a great experience for fans and alumni of both schools so the contract between them makes sense. The game last year was freaking awesome.

 

We should figure out ways to create a great experience for our fans and another school's fans similar to Wake vs. UNC.  Hint:  Toledo is two hours away. Why are we not scheduling them in years we are not scheduled to play them in the MAC on a nice late summer afternoon or evening? 

 

Fans need to stop counting ticket revenue. It's never going to add up. 

 

YSU is not a good replacement for Toledo in my scenario.

 

Such a good post lost to the internet.....

[UA1987]

2 hours ago, DannyHoke said:

Some thoughts from above....

 

The goal every year should be to win the MAC... Ya think?  Do you feel this is not the goal now.  Gimme a break.

 

Just playing a few buy games every year is not going to solve this riddle sportsfans.  Akron is cutting 20% of the athletics budget on top of an earlier announced cut, which may or may not be, wholly or in part of this 20%.  Even then, Akron is in for change.  

 

This is not solely based on COVID 19... It's the fact that Akron Athletics is irrelevant to the current students, and the alumni do not support the athletics program through attendance or donations at a level commensurate with the current spending.

 

Akron wants to be D1, and if you think that being able to play a buy game and get destroyed by Clemson this fall is going to help increase the value of our Akron diploma, you are high.  Getting beat by 50+ points makes you a joke.  Clemson is paying you to come get beat.  It's called a GUARANTEE GAME because 99% of the time these are WINS.  Smart people do not base their business plans on the hope of the 1% occurrence.

 

Ohio has too many schools in the higher ed system and would be best served by unloading 1/2 of the schools into the private sector.  Akron, Kent, Cleveland State and Youngstown State, all in one geographical quadrant of NE OHIO is overkill.  Fewer people are going to 4-year colleges and  Cuyahoga Community College is $70 per credit hour and has as good, if not better job placement than Akron.  That's a fact.  Akron's campus has exploded with a lot of unneeded stuff that jacks costs up and thus the enrollment is down. Non athletes are not coming to Akron because of some pole vaulter on the track team was in the olympics or because a decade ago we won a NCAA title in men's soccer.  

 

The only people that care about Zips athletics are those of us who played, and even then, along with the die hard fans, there are not 2,000 season ticket holders for football and we do not average more than 3,000 fans per game for men's basketball. (2703 announced).

 

Akron would be best served by selling/trading off Infocision Stadium to the City of Akron, allowing that venue to be operated by the City, and getting the debt off the books.  Pay rent to play football games in the stadium and be done with the overhead.

 

Move to D2 and call it a day.  No way that  this program is worth what is put into it and taking away from the educational mission of the institution.

 

 

 

I wouldn't mind giving you a break, but you sound so angry and aggrieved that I suspect you may have gotten screwed by the University or someone somehow (border line sociopath). Anyhow, I mention the goal of winning the MAC at the end of my post as the win total of a fully brought back Akron team playing so many road money games is going to be 6 or 7 most probably, which is not something that would draw much of a gate in Akron. At this point, we have the diehards in Akron and that's it - move on to generating OOC revenue for now. By dropping men's and women's track and field Akron would save $5,650,000 (226 your chart number X $25,000 ave in and out of state tuiton and room and board) of the $6,500,000 or so needed. Starve certain other non-revenue sports and you'd have the savings required for fiscal year 2021. Then develop a plan to sign 3 or 4 OOC games a year for football going forward and you arguably would have a damn good reason for saving football, and the athletic budget, at the Division I FBS level. Note that the most exciting football game I've ever been at was the Akron victory against Northwestern in Evanston in 2018.                   

Edited April 28, 2020 by UA1987

[94zipgrad]

35 minutes ago, UA1987 said:

I wouldn't mind giving you a break, but you sound so angry and aggrieved that I suspect may have gotten screwed by the University or someone somehow (border line sociopath). Anyhow, I mention the goal of winning the MAC at the end of my post as the win total of a fully brought back Akron team playing so many road money games is going to be 6 or 7 most probably, which is not something that would draw much of a gate in Akron. At this point, we have the diehards in Akron and that's it - move on to generating OOC revenue for now. By dropping men's and women's track and field and Akron would save $5,650,000 (226 your chart number X 25,000 ave in and out of state tuiton and room and board) of the $6,500,000 or so needed. Starve certain other non-revenue sports and you'd have the savings required for fiscal year 2021. Then develop a plan to sign 3 or 4 OOC games a year for football going forward and you arguably would have a damn good reason for saving football, and the athletic budget, at the Division I FBS level. Note that the most exciting football game I've ever been at was the Akron victory against Northwestern in Evanston in 2018.                   

That was a great game, we played such a bad 1st half with so many false starts.  We finely made a play & the momentum started changing until they knew they had a chance & then played at a very high level.  The bonehead call to roam around & throw the ball as far as you can to kill the clock almost backfired.

Edited April 28, 2020 by 94zipgrad

[NWAkron]

Yeah, the like the City of Akron can afford to buy a stadium.  There are some who linger in the shadows of Zipsnation and ONLY appear during the "bad times" so they can troll and stir the pot.  I block them, but can see when others quote them and try and use logic with them.

[Zipmeister]

9 hours ago, GP1 said:

http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-are/membership/divisional-differences-and-history-multidivision-classification

 

No, it's really the other way.

 

Whatever took place before that was something schools did on their own, which shows how schools can get together without the NCAA and organize themselves.

 

Interesting link (especially the last 9 lines):

https://www.ncaa.com/history/swimming-men/d2

Edited April 28, 2020 by Zipmeister
.

[LZIp]

I've seen nearly every assistant coach post a recruiting graphic on twitter today. The optimist in me makes me think we might be 'okay' on the football side. The timing of these posts seems too coincidental. 

[kreed5120]

2 hours ago, UA1987 said:

By dropping men's and women's track and field Akron would save $5,650,000 (226 your chart number X $25,000 ave in and out of state tuiton and room and board) of the $6,500,000 or so needed. Starve certain other non-revenue sports and you'd have the savings required for fiscal year 2021.                 

That's not how the math works. Men's T&F is allowed 12.6 scholarships. Women's T&F is allowed 18. Everyone else is paying their way. That means nearly 200 of them are paying their way and the vast majority of them probably wouldn't have picked Akron if we didn't have the program.

 

I really don't know the numbers, but giving away 30.6 scholarships to boost enrollment 226 may make keeping T&F worth it. Then again that may run up quite the bill busing them around the country. Someone who is better in the know can run the numbers. I just didn't want bad information spreading.

[NWAkron]

4 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

That's not how the math works. Men's T&F is allowed 12.6 scholarships. Women's T&F is allowed 18. Everyone else is paying their way. That means nearly 200 of them are paying their way and the vast majority of them probably wouldn't have picked Akron if we didn't have the program.

 

I really don't know the numbers, but giving away 30.6 scholarships to boost enrollment 226 may make keeping T&F worth it. Then again that may run up quite the bill busing them around the country. Someone who is better in the know can run the numbers. I just didn't want bad information spreading.

thank you.  it's never easy 

[UA1987]

20 hours ago, kreed5120 said:

That's not how the math works. Men's T&F is allowed 12.6 scholarships. Women's T&F is allowed 18. Everyone else is paying their way. That means nearly 200 of them are paying their way and the vast majority of them probably wouldn't have picked Akron if we didn't have the program.

 

I really don't know the numbers, but giving away 30.6 scholarships to boost enrollment 226 may make keeping T&F worth it. Then again that may run up quite the bill busing them around the country. Someone who is better in the know can run the numbers. I just didn't want bad information spreading.

Yes - thanks for the correction - I thought 226 scholarships was high (Danny's earlier chart post on this topic was participants not necessarily scholarships by sport). Makes it even more important that football secures the money games and as 94zipsgrad said in a previous post - its under consideration that multiple programs are going to be cut, but as has also been alluded to - gettting to 20% in cuts or additional revenue for fiscal year 2021 is going to require some creative accounting. Can the Zips wear masks and gloves and get on the Browns practice schedule for a huge fee to be paid back later (kidding). I'm sure it has been, or is being looked into by UA Finance, but what could help (if allowable by the Boards and fund accounting principles) is if the stadium property could be refinanced (by a reputable bank or savings and loan - currently very low rates even if UA would have to pay a premium) into off balance sheet debt (temporarily owned by a financial institution) with very low UA rental payments for several years and then several balloon payments later from some (partial) big payday games dollars swept into a reserve account until UA retakes full ownership at a later date. Could something like this save the millions in debt service currently in the Athletic Department budget during this crisis? Could we get there (20% reduction) with this refinancing and the unfortunate program cut here and there?            

Edited April 29, 2020 by UA1987

[Lee Adams]

18 hours ago, DannyHoke said:

Some thoughts from above....

 

The goal every year should be to win the MAC... Ya think?  Do you feel this is not the goal now.  Gimme a break.

 

Just playing a few buy games every year is not going to solve this riddle sportsfans.  Akron is cutting 20% of the athletics budget on top of an earlier announced cut, which may or may not be, wholly or in part of this 20%.  Even then, Akron is in for change.  

 

This is not solely based on COVID 19... It's the fact that Akron Athletics is irrelevant to the current students, and the alumni do not support the athletics program through attendance or donations at a level commensurate with the current spending.

 

Akron wants to be D1, and if you think that being able to play a buy game and get destroyed by Clemson this fall is going to help increase the value of our Akron diploma, you are high.  Getting beat by 50+ points makes you a joke.  Clemson is paying you to come get beat.  It's called a GUARANTEE GAME because 99% of the time these are WINS.  Smart people do not base their business plans on the hope of the 1% occurrence.

 

Ohio has too many schools in the higher ed system and would be best served by unloading 1/2 of the schools into the private sector.  Akron, Kent, Cleveland State and Youngstown State, all in one geographical quadrant of NE OHIO is overkill.  Fewer people are going to 4-year colleges and  Cuyahoga Community College is $70 per credit hour and has as good, if not better job placement than Akron.  That's a fact.  Akron's campus has exploded with a lot of unneeded stuff that jacks costs up and thus the enrollment is down. Non athletes are not coming to Akron because of some pole vaulter on the track team was in the olympics or because a decade ago we won a NCAA title in men's soccer.  

 

The only people that care about Zips athletics are those of us who played, and even then, along with the die hard fans, there are not 2,000 season ticket holders for football and we do not average more than 3,000 fans per game for men's basketball. (2703 announced).

 

Akron would be best served by selling/trading off Infocision Stadium to the City of Akron, allowing that venue to be operated by the City, and getting the debt off the books.  Pay rent to play football games in the stadium and be done with the overhead.

 

Move to D2 and call it a day.  No way that  this program is worth what is put into it and taking away from the educational mission of the institution.

 

 

 

A number of posters on this site keep talking about the 'sacrifice games, the 'payday' games, 'guarantee' games as if they have been or will be the life preserver for football here. Akron and schools like Akron have been playing those games for years. Even all that money has never gotten football out of the deep hole its in. We are here because DI sports at Akron and schools like Akron have historically not attracted sufficient interest or money to stay afloat without huge inputs of 'institutional support'. Ah, thats fees from people who have little to no interest in athletics. DannyHoke unfortunately is correct in that regard. As far as Infocision,the elephant in the room, who wants it other than the University? Don't know. Again, this situation has not occurred just because of COVID 19. COVID 19 simply further exposed the flaws that have existed for years.

Even if the University administration decides Akron must go elsewhere to have a viable athletic program I will purchase my football season tickets as I have done for decades. If the decision is made to conduct business as usual, I'm not so sure.

[GP1]

4 minutes ago, Lee Adams said:

 Again, this situation has not occurred just because of COVID 19. COVID 19 simply further exposed the flaws that have existed for years.

"You only find out who is swimming naked when the tide goes out." - Warren Buffett