Duquesne Basketball Coach Keith Dambrot

[Zip_ME87]

39 minutes ago, RowdyZip said:

The second part isn't exactly true.  Tim O'Shea had some pretty good teams his last few years before leaving to coach at Bryant (still weird), so it really wasn't Groce himself that turned them around.  They've had pretty good sustained success the last 15 years through 3 coaching staffs.

 

I think you misread the 2nd sentence. As I read it, i believe kreed was referring to Dambrot/Akron not Groce/Ohio. That Dambrot "turned a below average to bad MAC program into the class of the MAC..."

[Blue & Gold]

42 minutes ago, RowdyZip said:

I wish Coach Dambrot and his staff all the best success they can attain...  I will be following Duquesne on the periphery of my basketball consciousness and rooting for them unless they happen to cross paths with the Zips. 

 

Not me... Pittsburgh's too close for comfort.  I'm also happy to see the Pitt Panthers in such disarray.  

[kreed5120]

56 minutes ago, RowdyZip said:

 

The first part is correct.  Groce has said it, or at least implied it, himself.  There's no way we land him if it wasn't for the reputation/prestige that the previous staff created over the last decade-plus. 

 

The second part isn't exactly true.  Tim O'Shea had some pretty good teams his last few years before leaving to coach at Bryant (still weird), so it really wasn't Groce himself that turned them around.  They've had pretty good sustained success the last 15 years through 3 coaching staffs.

 

I hope the 3rd part is correct.  I could certainly see it happen.  The number one knock I've read around the internet is that Coach Groce isn't a great game coach.  Fantastic recruiter, but could struggle time to time putting the pieces together.  That can be improved, if it's an issue.  I certainly like the recruiting situation thus far.  Also, there were some good adjustments in the 2nd half vs. CSU.

 

I wish Coach Dambrot and his staff all the best success they can attain.  I, like others, have heard of some rumblings that some behind the scenes events helped make the decision to move on for Coach.  I will be following Duquesne on the periphery of my basketball consciousness and rooting for them unless they happen to cross paths with the Zips. 

I was referring to Dambrot turning Akron from a below average/bad program to the class of the MAC

[RowdyZip]

48 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

I was referring to Dambrot turning Akron from a below average/bad program to the class of the MAC

Ahhh.  I see it now.  Makes more sense.  I started following the Zips about 4 years before Dambrot took over and a lot of those Hipsher teams were REAAAALLLLY hard to watch.  Especially getting crushed by Kent twice a year.

[skip-zip]

1 hour ago, Blue & Gold said:

Not me... Pittsburgh's too close for comfort.  I'm also happy to see the Pitt Panthers in such disarray.  

 

I think you've hit on something I preach about all the time. 

 

We shouldn't really want any program within our state or region to do well.  On some level, it affects us.  In some cases it might be in recruiting.  In other instances, for the schools that are closer to us, it's in lack of media coverage.  

 

And that's all tough for me to say in this case.  Because I know the situation with Keith, and I like him, and I would otherwise want him to set the world on fire at Duquesne, after making a move that he really was never wanting to make.   

[LZIp]

Oh please, enough with the coded BS. "A move he never really wanted to make." If you know something different than what the general population knows (which if there is, I highly doubt it to be as big of an issue as some are making it out to be), then spill the beans. It isn't confidential information unless a NDA was signed by Keith for whatever reason...which I HIGHLY doubt.

Edited November 16, 2017 by LZIp

[GJGood]

2 hours ago, RowdyZip said:

Ahhh.  I see it now.  Makes more sense.  I started following the Zips about 4 years before Dambrot took over and a lot of those Hipsher teams were REAAAALLLLY hard to watch.  Especially getting crushed by Kent twice a year.

I started following the Zips about two years before Hipsher was hired and if you thought watching Hipsher's teams was difficult be thankful you weren't around to watch the Coleman Crawford years.

[NWAkron]

8 hours ago, RowdyZip said:

 

  The number one knock I've read around the internet is that Coach Groce isn't a great game coach.  Fantastic recruiter, but could struggle time to time putting the pieces together.  That can be improved, if it's an issue.  

 

 

What does this mean?  Can you give an example of a bad "in game" decision he made or didn't make?  A cite to an article?  If you recruit well, the in game decisions get a lot easier.  

[LZIp]

8 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

What does this mean?  Can you give an example of a bad "in game" decision he made or didn't make?  A cite to an article?  If you recruit well, the in game decisions get a lot easier.  

Whether true or not, I would imagine those thoughts come from Illinois fans, where maybe that would get "exposed" when you are playing in a top 2 conference in the country, but we're talkin' about the MAC here!

 

Will be interesting to see how Groce's replacement at IL does this season.

Edited November 16, 2017 by LZIp

[skip-zip]

7 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

If you recruit well, the in game decisions get a lot easier.  

 

Which might be exactly the reason why in-game decision making is being criticized when a coach seems to recruit well, but has a 71-83 conference record.  

[skip-zip]

10 minutes ago, LZIp said:

Will be interesting to see how Groce's replacement at IL does this season.

 

Remember, I think several of their players left too.  Unfortunately we couldn't lure any of them here.  

[NWAkron]

13 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

Which might be exactly the reason why in-game decision making is being criticized when a coach seems to recruit well, but has a 71-83 conference record.  

Right, of course, no flaws in that logic.

[kreed5120]

41 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

Which might be exactly the reason why in-game decision making is being criticized when a coach seems to recruit well, but has a 71-83 conference record.  

IDK if he recruited well enough by B1G standards. It was kind of a running joke on college basketball reddit, which I frequent, that when it came to recruiting he was always the bridesmaid, never the bride. He finished runner-up in quite a few recruiting battles involving 4* and 5* players.

[akronzips71]

6 hours ago, skip-zip said:

 

Which might be exactly the reason why in-game decision making is being criticized when a coach seems to recruit well, but has a 71-83 conference record.  

How many of those 83 were to us?

[RowdyZip]

9 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

How many of those 83 were to us?

These are facts: 

Though highly subjective, according to 247, Akron never had the top recruiting class in the MAC.  In fact, they never ranked higher than 3rd, and that was just once in 12 years.  Contrast that with the results on the court in the conference.  Dambrot and his staff are excellent game coaches and pros at maximizing the talent on the court.  They recruited well for the MAC, and the guys they put on the court fit together well.  And it's been beaten down, yes we lacked the big wins in the post season.  Given.

 

In the 4 recruiting classes attributable to Groce and his staff at Illinois, two are ranked in the top 20 nationally and 2nd in the conference.  2014 was 8th in conference but still 56th overall.  2016 had one player and they were still in the top half of D1.  Contrast that with the on the court results: 

2016/17:  9th in Big Ten

2015/16: 12th in Big Ten

2014/15:  8th in Big Ten

2013/14:  8th in Big Ten

 

I'm not here to knock the new staff.  I like the hire and, like I said, in-game adjustments to maximize the output for your roster can be learned and improved.  The fact is, the previous staff blows away what was done by Groce and company in Illinois.  Right now, some highly rated guys are flowing in for 2018.  Time will tell how the court performance shows up.

[kreed5120]

25 minutes ago, RowdyZip said:

These are facts: 

Though highly subjective, according to 247, Akron never had the top recruiting class in the MAC.  In fact, they never ranked higher than 3rd, and that was just once in 12 years.  Contrast that with the results on the court in the conference.  Dambrot and his staff are excellent game coaches and pros at maximizing the talent on the court.  They recruited well for the MAC, and the guys they put on the court fit together well.  And it's been beaten down, yes we lacked the big wins in the post season.  Given.

 

In the 4 recruiting classes attributable to Groce and his staff at Illinois, two are ranked in the top 20 nationally and 2nd in the conference.  2014 was 8th in conference but still 56th overall.  2016 had one player and they were still in the top half of D1.  Contrast that with the on the court results: 

2016/17:  9th in Big Ten

2015/16: 12th in Big Ten

2014/15:  8th in Big Ten

2013/14:  8th in Big Ten

 

I'm not here to knock the new staff.  I like the hire and, like I said, in-game adjustments to maximize the output for your roster can be learned and improved.  The fact is, the previous staff blows away what was done by Groce and company in Illinois.  Right now, some highly rated guys are flowing in for 2018.  Time will tell how the court performance shows up.

 

It's an apples to oranges comparison. In the B1G Groce was competing against some of the best basketball minds in all of college basketball. Clearly he bit off more than he can chew. I don't feel it has any indication whether he will succeed or fail in the MAC.

[RowdyZip]

4 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

It's an apples to oranges comparison. In the B1G Groce was competing against some of the best basketball minds in all of college basketball. Clearly he bit off more than he can chew. I don't feel it has any indication whether he will succeed or fail in the MAC.

I guess we have differing opinions and that only time will answer that.  All that my above post proves is talent doesn't cure all ills.  Coaching is a prominent aspect of college basketball team performance and we'll see how much by examining Dambrot's move up to the A10 and Groce's move back down to the MAC.  I'm confident we'll continue to win.  This season may be rocky, but luckily for us timing-wise, the MAC as a whole is down.  We could still near .500 in conference.  I think Buffalo/Kent/OU/EMU will be the top 4, but after that it is a crapshoot.

[Dr Z]

If one wanted to compare Groce and KD, I think the 2012 season would be a good start. If you were concerned with results instead of stats. 

[kreed5120]

17 minutes ago, RowdyZip said:

I guess we have differing opinions and that only time will answer that.  All that my above post proves is talent doesn't cure all ills.  Coaching is a prominent aspect of college basketball team performance and we'll see how much by examining Dambrot's move up to the A10 and Groce's move back down to the MAC.  I'm confident we'll continue to win.  This season may be rocky, but luckily for us timing-wise, the MAC as a whole is down.  We could still near .500 in conference.  I think Buffalo/Kent/OU/EMU will be the top 4, but after that it is a crapshoot.

I just think your margin of error is smaller in a conference like the B1G where you are competing against the best of the best. Those guys got those jobs by being excellent recruiters and good in game coaches. Most MAC basketball coaches aren't even worthy enough to hold Tom Izzo's jockstrap.

 

I'm appreciative of what Dambrot achieved and Groce will have an uphill battle to just meet what Dambrot achieved. A better comparison who be comparing what Groce achieved at OU vs. what Dambrot achieved at Akron. Dambrot will also have an uphill battle at Duquesne as he'll be competing against higher caliber coaches.

[skip-zip]

I think Rowdy Zip makes a great point about Akron being at the top of the league all of those years, despite never having the high grade of talent.

 

But regardless, as Dr. Z suggests, there's some very interesting things you will find if you look at the 4 years that Groce was at OU, and Keith was at Akron at the same time. 

 

Here's a few:

 

1) In 2012, we split with OU in the two games during conference play, and lost by 1 in the MAC title game.  I call that the "hanging on the rim with no technical being called when Abreu missed the free throw" game.   Interestingly, this was OU's highest seed (#3) in the MAC tournament in those 4 years.  

 

2) In 2011, we actually lost to OU TWICE that year during conference play (the only time it happened), but OU never made it past the Quarterfinals, and we won the MAC tournament.   This was also the year between OU's two MAC tournament titles, and strangely, they barely managed to reach the .500 mark that year.   Apparently, their 2 wins over Akron were probably the highlight of their season.  

 

3) In 2010, we beat OU TWICE during conference play, and lost to them in OT in the MAC tournament title game.  This was the strange "come out of nowhere" year where OU won the MAC tournament despite having a 7-9 record, and the #9 seed. 

 

4) In 2009, we split the two games with OU, and they never made it past the Quarterfinals, and we won the tournament over Buffalo in the finals.  

 

 

[Dr Z]

1) I think you "skipped" over Groce's biggest achievements in 2012. 

[skip-zip]

3 minutes ago, Dr Z said:

1) I think you "skipped" over Groce's biggest achievements in 2012. 

 

  

 

I was "skipping" a lot of things that didn't pertain to Groce vs. Dambrot.   That could have been a very long post.  

[Let'sGoZips94]

41 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

  

 

I was "skipping" a lot of things that didn't pertain to Groce vs. Dambrot.   That could have been a very long post.  

 

Or as short as...

 

"Groce had 3 NCAA tournament wins in his time at OU, including a trip to the Sweet Sixteen, in his 4 years at OU. Compare that to Dambrot's 0 NCAA Tournament wins in 12(?) years at Akron." 

Edited November 17, 2017 by lilroodude

[skip-zip]

Oh geez. 

 

A poster asked about how many of Groce's 83 conference losses were at the hands of the Zips.  I highlighted the games between the Zips and OU during those 4 years, and the 4 MAC tournaments that they competed in against each other during those 4 years.   

 

I get where this is going.  This will seem like a broken record for the next several years. 

 

1) Dambrot supporters will continue to highlight his entire body of work.

2) Groce supporters will continue to insist that you ignore the conference records, ignore the two early Quarterfinal losses, and only focus on 2 MAC finals and NCAA games.    

 

I think that's anyone's choice what side of the fence they are on, or where they stand in between.  But, I just find it odd that a few people continue to come to the Keith Dambrot / Duquesne Coach thread to comment defensively about anything that's posted that might look unfavorable to Groce.

 

I think there's plenty of other threads to choose from to comment on the new coach.    

 

[ZachTheZip]

Does nobody remember how OU hit circus shot after circus shot in 2012? Groce got supremely lucky to get those tournament wins. We're banking the future of Akron Zips basketball on luck, and ignoring the fact that we're just as likely to have bad seasons and early conference tournament exits as we are to win. And this is after the shine has worn off of Groce's coaching and recruiting reputations after failing hardcore at Illinois.