John Groce Officially Hired

[kreed5120]

3 minutes ago, lilroodude said:

 

1. I don't think we lost a whole lot in those two. Unlike others, I don't put a whole lot of stock into the awards like the MAC POY and All-MAC teams. The MAC was GARBAGE this year, and the only reason Big Dog was POY was because of Dambrot's system, which more or less hindered our ability to succeed at times throughout the year.

 

2. We were head and shoulders above the MAC talent wise. Aside from Kwan and Big Dog, we lost a bench player in Hughes (who knows what he turns out to be, but he wasn't a contributing factor last year), an undersized backup PG in TDM, Josh Williams who many said was/is too slow for this level, and Noah who hasn't been the same since his injury. Antino isn't a confirmed loss. We maintained Ivey, Utomi, Eubanks, Jackson, and Poke so far. Plus, our incoming recruiting class is largely in tact I believe. 

 

3. I am also one of those people who believes Dambrot's ceiling was reached, and I don't believe he was THAT great of a coach. I am appreciative of the foundation he laid here at Akron, but too many times we were out-coached, and I think Groce will win games that Dambrot lost simply due to coaching. 

 

4. We are still in the MAC. People need to stop treating the MAC like it's the ACC. Mid-level MAC schools smack around the Radfords of the world, but a drop from a top MAC school to a low/mid-level MAC school is greater than losing what we did. What prevented us from Dancing wasn't talent - it was a better game plan, effort, desire, and heart, AKA coaching.  

 

I quit reading after the bolded print.

[kreed5120]

9 minutes ago, zippy5 said:

This is where I quit reading

+1,000

 

I didn't see your post, but looks like we had the same idea.

[UAZippers]

14 minutes ago, lilroodude said:

 

2. We were head and shoulders above the MAC talent wise. 

 

You completely contradict this point with everything else that you said. I don't know how we have so much talent when you claim that 4/5 starters and our top 2 bench players were below par. 

 

I would argue that Akron has been below the top teams in the MAC in terms of talent recently. I believe that Buffalo, Kent, EMU, and maybe OU all had more talent than the Zips last season. We won because we have a system that our players bought into and they all knew their role to help the team succeed. With 6 of our top 8 leaving, I'm not sure how the team is going to be able to react. I hope that JG can give us a winner next season, but won't be because the current team is just loaded with talent.

[akronzips71]

36 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

I think it is very safe to assume the Zips are in for a down year.  They lost the 3 players with MAC honors, the starting point guard,  their 6th man, three reserves expected to contribute substantially and 4 starters.  I  hope for big things from Groce, but being a miracle worker is not one of them.

 

I hate to ruin your depressed state of mind, but one thing remains true:

There are just so many D1 scholarships out there. Way more potential players than slots.

He will recruit some good players.

[Let'sGoZips94]

4 minutes ago, UAZippers said:

You completely contradict this point with everything else that you said. I don't know how we have so much talent when you claim that 4/5 starters and our top 2 bench players were below par. 

 

I would argue that Akron has been below the top teams in the MAC in terms of talent recently. I believe that Buffalo, Kent, EMU, and maybe OU all had more talent than the Zips last season. We won because we have a system that our players bought into and they all knew their role to help the team succeed. With 6 of our top 8 leaving, I'm not sure how the team is going to be able to react. I hope that JG can give us a winner next season, but won't be because the current team is just loaded with talent.

 

I disagree. I think Antino, Utomi, and Ivey were the 3 best players on the team, and consistently the 3 best. The other players may have thrived statistically more, but that's largely due to the system. Again, I don't think it was a great system. Now, if we do indeed lose Antino, that hurts. 

 

Again, I disagree. Buffalo had 1 or 2 players that we did not match up well against, and that was again, due to the system - specifically the part that didn't stop dribble penetration. Kent out-efforted us. EMU, no. OU, Hell no. 

 

I think some of you need to go back through some of the game threads. You'll find LOTS of quotes along the lines of...

 

"Josh Williams is too slow for this level..."

 

"Noah seems lost and absent..."

 

"Where is Kwan?"

 

"Ivey is our best player..."

 

"Utomi needs to be in there more..."

[Hilltopper]

10 minutes ago, zippy5 said:

This is where I quit reading

Me too. This place has turned into some kind of an alternate universe lately.

 

[K92]

lilroodude

 

This is where I stopped reading.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just messing with you LRD.

[mes102]

I was going to stay out of it, but I just couldn't keep my fingers off the reply button.

There is no way you can say Kwan and Big Dog graduating isn't us losing a lot. You may be looking at it from an offensive standpoint at times, but Kwan's defense for majority of this year was what we'll miss the most next year. There were portions of the season where he let his lack of offensive efficiency effect his defense, but for the most part, he was our best defender. There was actually times that I wished KD would have put Kwan on Jimmy Hall instead of Big Dog, just because of Kwan's defense.

Big Dog was the focal point and the cornerstone of everything this team did offensively. I think you are extremely overlooking his passing ability and vision of the court. By your basis, if we take Kwan and Big Dog out of the lineup last year and gave the reigns to Jackson, Utomi, and Ivey that we would have been better?!?!?!?!?!?!?!  No way.

Personally, I don't think Williams, Noah, Hughes, and TDM will be major losses other than depth issues potentially, but Kwan and Big Dog will be huge losses for us no matter who our coach would have been/will be and the players we would have had/will have next season.

As for Ivey and Utomi, I think they've shown signs of being solid players but you have to be more consistent than they were last season to be considered a cornerstone of the program. Hope they work on that this off season. As for Jackson, if he comes back, great. If not, next man up(whoever that may be).

 

[UAZippers]

1 hour ago, lilroodude said:

 

I disagree. I think Antino, Utomi, and Ivey were the 3 best players on the team, and consistently the 3 best. The other players may have thrived statistically more, but that's largely due to the system. Again, I don't think it was a great system. Now, if we do indeed lose Antino, that hurts. 

 

Again, I disagree. Buffalo had 1 or 2 players that we did not match up well against, and that was again, due to the system - specifically the part that didn't stop dribble penetration. Kent out-efforted us. EMU, no. OU, Hell no. 

 

I think some of you need to go back through some of the game threads. You'll find LOTS of quotes along the lines of...

 

"Josh Williams is too slow for this level..."

 

"Noah seems lost and absent..."

 

"Where is Kwan?"

 

"Ivey is our best player..."

 

"Utomi needs to be in there more..."

 

I agree that Ivey and Antino are very good players. I think the best player on the team last season was far and away Big Dog, but I am excited to see what Ivey can do next year with a team that I would guess will be more structured towards his skill set. I am at the point where I am assuming Antino is gone. I will be happily surprised if he returns.

 

Utomi showed promise, but that is it. There is not enough sample size to know how he will turn out. His problem is that it looks like he might have to play out of his natural position his whole career. 

 

I by no means am saying that there is not talented Zips, but I do not understand how anyone could think that we are far more talented than the other upper-level members of the MAC. EMU is pure talent, they just have a coach that I wouldn't trust with a junior high women's squad and you can tell just by watching that they have no chemistry. Buffalo and Kent both showed what can be done when you just let athletic freaks do what they want on the court. 

 

As far as the quotes, I agree that I was disappointed in the play of the some of the Zips last season, but there is a reason that certain player played over others. To say that we won't miss every guard we had on the team (If we call Ivey a 3 since that is what he played last season) is laughable and I have 0 faith that Aaron Jackson will be a productive player next year. I hope I am wrong.

Edited April 20, 2017 by UAZippers

[72 Roo]

I think we lost more than you state. But I'm pretty much on board with the rest of your post. If we keep Antino and find some rebounding help we can have a decent, not great, year. Grace will not lose the game KD lost because the team wasn't prepared or able to play with discipline. 

[clarkwgriswold]

1 hour ago, akronzips71 said:

 

I hate to ruin your depressed state of mind, but one thing remains true:

There are just so many D1 scholarships out there. Way more potential players than slots.

He will recruit some good players.

It's not depression, it's REALITY.  I'll still show up and root for the Zips and I am confident he'll get decent players, but this is clearly a year of rebuilding and transition.

[clarkwgriswold]

Yep, losing the MAC PLAYER OF THE YEAR and a SECOND TEAM ALL- MAC PLAYER are inconsequential losses.   

[skip-zip]

1 hour ago, clarkwgriswold said:

It's not depression, it's REALITY.  I'll still show up and root for the Zips and I am confident he'll get decent players, but this is clearly a year of rebuilding and transition.

 

I'll agree with you.  But gosh, I hate hearing that word "rebuild", as I stated earlier.  It's tough to think about our program possibly falling back to that condition so quickly.  

 

Uncertainty is just not a state that we're used be being in as Zips basketball fans.  

[akronzips71]

Somewhere out there are two or three REALLY good players who would jump at the chance to play D1 ball.

Just like the football coach found us when we had that job open.

 

JG just has to find them.

 

 

[skip-zip]

13 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Somewhere out there are two or three REALLY good players who would jump at the chance to play D1 ball.

 

Maybe ONE would seem somewhat realistic?

 

The "REALLY good" crop isn't lingering in obscurity in late April of their Sr. year.  Even if it was much earlier in the recruiting season, I think you're fortunate at our level to maybe find 1 instant contributor who fell through the cracks.  We're still Akron, folks.  We have to find guys who have potential and look for the qualities/attributes that might make them good players in the future.   But this time, we also face the challenge of not being able to prove to these kids what direction we are likely going.  That part was easy for many, many years. 

 

Hope for the best.  I just think you're wishing for a Dream outcome at this point.  

[akronzips71]

I am going to drop back to what I said previously.

KD always recruited role players.

JG is going after ATHLETES.

 

lets see what happens. All is not lost. Yet.

[72 Roo]

31 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

31 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

lets see what happens. All is not lost.

All would be lost if we got the wrong coach. That is not the case. JG will get the job done and have a higher ceiling than KD. The road there will not be smooth and perhaps the rockiest phase is what we are going thru now. But we will emerge as a better progrum and we will reach higher levels. He needs time. Support him and let him do his job.

 

[skip-zip]

9 hours ago, akronzips71 said:

KD always recruited role players.

JG is going after ATHLETES.

 

lets see what happens. All is not lost. Yet.

 

I'm with you on the last statement.  Lets see what we "get", rather than getting too excited about what we might be "going after".

 

But lets be fair here about categorizing recruiting objectives, no matter what side of the equation you are on concerning the coaching change.  When we were going at it with OU for a few years under Groce, I think it would be ridiculous to think that it was role players vs. athletes when we had some guys like Tree, Harney, Chauncey, and Zeke matching up against guys like Ivo Baltic, Von Kempen and Keely.  In fact, I would contend that by the end of that short era between the two teams, Akron probably even surpassed them in better overall athletic talent.  

 

There's MAC teams over the years that I would categorize as Very Athletic.   The 2010-2013 Bobcats are not one of them.  

 

Every MAC team is going to have plenty of role player.  I'll take the best basketball players we can get right now.  Our previous coach did the same thing.  

 

 

[Blackburn]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, kreed5120 said:

 

So you expect no drop off despite losing our MAC POY and a 2nd team All-MAC player in Kwan? Groce might recruit some good players, but I highly doubt day 1 they walk into the building and be as good as what Big Dog was his junior and senior year.

 

I don't agree with the first part of your statement... If you take this team last season and allow Groce to coach, Im not so sure we don't have another POY candidate.  Don't underestimate the STYLE difference between Dambrot and Groce... or any other coach.  Big Dog hit the jackpot to play for Dambrot's post-first offense.  

[kreed5120]

11 hours ago, Blackburn said:

 

I don't agree with the first part of your statement... If you take this team last season and allow Groce to coach, Im not so sure we don't have another POY candidate.  Don't underestimate the STYLE difference between Dambrot and Groce... or any other coach.  Big Dog hit the jackpot to play for Dambrot's post-first offense.  

 

He WAS MAC POY and that is fact so I don't know what you are disputing? If you want to argue Big Dog wouldn't have won MAC POY under a different coach, I'm not going to argue hypotheticals. It still doesn't change the fact he was a damn fine basketball player who could both score at a highly efficient level and had the court vision and basketball IQ to make the right passes. Losing him is a huge loss no matter how you try sugarcoating it.

[clarkwgriswold]

8 hours ago, kreed5120 said:

 

He WAS MAC POY and that is fact so I don't know what you are disputing? If you want to argue Big Dog wouldn't have won MAC POY under a different coach, I'm not going to argue hypotheticals. It still doesn't change the fact he was a damn fine basketball player who could both score at a highly efficient level and had the court vision and basketball IQ to make the right passes. Losing him is a huge loss no matter how you try sugarcoating it.

 

He only averaged roughly 17 points and 8 rebounds a game.  The coaches of the MAC voted him to the preseason All -MAC team and he was then named MAC player of the year.  I guess he really was a 'BIG DOG."   In the long line of Zips MAC players of the year, he was one of the 5 or 10 worse.

[akronzips71]

He was a top player on a team that was built to win the MAC. And therein lies the rub.

[kreed5120]

In a 1 bid league the goal should always be to win the conference as that's your only chance to make the tourney. The Zips came up short, but it was no fault of Big Dog as him and Ivey were the only ones who performed. Antino and Kwan combining for 5 points on 2/12 shooting is what sunk the Zips vs Kent.

[akronzips71]

17 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

In a 1 bid league the goal should always be to win the conference as that's your only chance to make the tourney. The Zips came up short, but it was no fault of Big Dog as him and Ivey were the only ones who performed. Antino and Kwan combining for 5 points on 2/12 shooting is what sunk the Zips vs Kent.

 

And as always we are back to this. KD's teams were able to win the MAC and get to the Conference finals, but not do much of anything else. No NCAA win, never won that "big" game against a ranked team.

 

Time for a change.

[kreed5120]

10 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

 

And as always we are back to this. KD's teams were able to win the MAC and get to the Conference finals, but not do much of anything else. No NCAA win, never won that "big" game against a ranked team.

 

Time for a change.

 

You're the one who brought this discussion full circle as I didn't even bring mention to if a coaching change was or wasn't needed. All I stated was Big Dog wasn't the problem. We just didn't have enough around him. It could be seen by how pathetic our team looked everytime he went to the bench.