Game 14- Toledo

[NWAkron]

18 minutes ago, The Hip Zip said:

 

We have more depth 1-12 but Todd K does indeed have a better all around starting 5 in my opinion.

Yes.  And they certainly have the advantage of playing a lot more games.  And frankly all those years of cheating may finally pay off for them this season.

[Bigzip1]

20+ shots is unacceptable. I don’t care who you are there’s a thin line between volume and gunning. That’s not when this team has been at its  best. Getting in transition, pull up 3’s, attacking the rim getting lay ups or fouled when defenders run him off the 3 pt line.. that’s when he’s effective not this dribble dribble dribble I gotta get the points or the assist every possession ball dominate mentality he’s developing will not continue to go over well with his teammates you can sense the frustration at times

[Bigzip1]

@NWAkron I actually know these guys so I’m not just a random guy trolling in a message board I haven’t taken anything away from him as a player he’s very talented, however everything about how he’s playing this year is telling me he wants to repeat as player of the year not go dancing. He has to bring these guys along with him teams are completely fine with him getting 30 playing the way he’s playing and that’s the problem. 

[NWAkron]

7 minutes ago, Bigzip1 said:

@NWAkron I actually know these guys so I’m not just a random guy trolling in a message board I haven’t taken anything away from him as a player he’s very talented, however everything about how he’s playing this year is telling me he wants to repeat as player of the year not go dancing. He has to bring these guys along with him teams are completely fine with him getting 30 playing the way he’s playing and that’s the problem. 

Against EMU last year, he gave the assist to X for the game winner.  The last game against Toledo he gave the assist to Maishe for the game winner.

That's nice you know the guys.

[zipsrule]

Looking at the box score:

 

LCJ:  11-24 (.458) with 4 assists and 3 steals and 8-10 from the free throw line.

Rest of the Team:  16-39 (.410) with 7 assists and 1 steal and 6-13 from the free throw line.

 

LCJ was not the problem this evening.  He made the most happen on the court.  In an ideal game, LCJ wouldn't have to take that many shots.  However, that would mean the rest of the team is making them.

Edited February 3, 2021 by zipsrule

[Bigzip1]

Getting pretty obvious I’m not talking to former players or coaches in this thread so I’ll make this my last post on the matter. More touches and shots confuse casual fans and create a false narrative. You run everything thru one guy it’s going to look like he’s doing all the work or his teammates didn’t step up when in reality he’s not giving his teammates a fair shot to contribute equally. Most of the time they get the ball late in the shot clock and have to rush a move or a shot attempt. I’ve seen this a lot in college basketball, player falls into right situation with coach that trusts him and gives him the green light, he puts up big numbers.. fans end up thinking he’s better than what he is. Happens a lot 

[NWAkron]

That is so patronizing and condescending.   We are NOT casual fans and the basketball knowledge on here is high and those who don't know the Xs and Os like myself don't pretend like we do.  

[akronzips71]

Don't feed the troll

[NWAkron]

3 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Don't feed the troll

I know...but I can't sleep.  Hes not as bad as the guys who join the football threads.

[RoyalBlu]

23 minutes ago, Bigzip1 said:

Getting pretty obvious I’m not talking to former players or coaches in this thread so I’ll make this my last post on the matter. More touches and shots confuse casual fans and create a false narrative. You run everything thru one guy it’s going to look like he’s doing all the work or his teammates didn’t step up when in reality he’s not giving his teammates a fair shot to contribute equally. Most of the time they get the ball late in the shot clock and have to rush a move or a shot attempt. I’ve seen this a lot in college basketball, player falls into right situation with coach that trusts him and gives him the green light, he puts up big numbers.. fans end up thinking he’s better than what he is. Happens a lot 

 

Listen ... most nights Akron's defense is more than good enough to keep the Zips in the game, if not winning, while LCJ tries to figure out if he has help or has to do it all alone. Unlike the rest of the MAC, Toledo has too much firepower in its starting five to shut them all down. Other than Akron, the only team to come close to beating them is Kent, and now that Nuga (ACL) is done it will be interesting to see if they have enough to stay with with Rockets should they meet (MAC Tournament) again.

 

As for the Zips, the gameplan with LCJ has been good enough last season and this season to be as good or better than every team in the league. It would not be unrealistic to see No. 1 Toledo have to play No. 4 Kent in the semis, then play No.2 Akron for the MAC Tournament title. On a neutral court ... would you bet against the Zips.

[clarkwgriswold]

As I have stated on here previously, I think the Zips too often get caught with 4 guys on the floor standing still watching LCJ on offense.  However, that is now part of the game in the college shot clock era.  I heard an interview of Bob Huggins a while back where he was lamenting the evolution of college basketball offense.  To paraphrase Huggins, college basketball has become 15 to 20 seconds of teams running their offense, which doesn't work because every opponent has watched hours of tape of that same offense, followed by a pick and roll or isolation with your best athlete trying to make a play.  If you watch the Zips, that's what often happens.  They come down, you have motion through the offense, no progress is made and the ball ends up back in LCJ's hands to make a play.  To our good fortune, he has he ability to do so most of the time.

 

LCJ is actually much more of a facilitator this year than last, on a team that arguably has fewer playmakers.  The approach of most teams this year has been to body him up, try to keep the ball out of his hands, focus primarily on him on defense and run him off of the three point line.  That tells me that the coaches in the MAC do not believe too much of LCJ is a good thing for them.  As for last night, they gave up 91 points so I'd place the loss more at the feet of the defense than the offense. 

 

At the end of the day, it was one loss against a very good Toledo team, a team that might well be 2-0 against the Zips if Toledo's coach didn't have a brain fart in the first game.  Time to focus on playing Brimfield on Friday. 

[kreed5120]

You guys are looking at the wrong end of the court. We scored enough points to win. We lost because Toledo shot 50% from the field, 44% from 3, and 89% from the line. Add in they outrebounded by 9 and did a good job of not turning it over then it's easy to see why we lost. This was a team loss. You aren't going to win too many games when you need your team to score 92+ points in regulation to win

 

 

[Captain Kangaroo]

We lost Cheese, Banks, Williams and Riak. We replaced them with Trimble, Wynn, Daily and Freeman. In only one instance did we upgrade. Yet here we are in the top 25% of the MAC again. 
 

Wynn has only been with the team for 6 weeks. He seems to get a little better ever game. Trimble can light it up in spurts, but doesn’t impact the game on defense like Cheese or Banks. Daily? Still too hesitant. He drives the lane, and hesitates. He’s unsure at the 3-point line. I think he drained the 3 to beat Toledo because he didn’t have time to think. The clock is ticking on things slowing down for him. Dunno if it will happen. 
 

Groce is doing a great job. LCJ rules. If a couple other guys can step up over the next month, we can beat Toledo in the basketball version of Rocky III.

[1981 grad]

Thanks for posting Huggins comments because that is the Akron offense.  However, when I watched Toledo I thought they ran their offense better than the Zips.  If you watch a replay of the game see how close they run off their screens and quickly they move off the ball.  Their offense did create more space for their shooters because of their better off the ball motion.  I disagree with BigZip that LCJ is a ball hog.  He does dribble a lot and took twice as many shots as anyone else but he is the only one that could penetrate the Toledo defense.  Dailey had a couple great slashing moves to the basket but could not finish.  Trimble is a one dimentional 3 point shooter.  Ali has some nice moves but is not a great scorer.  Freeman's offense is limited to the pick and roll.  Reese has some great post moves and really contributed last night.  Tribble and Dawson wer not a factor last night.  Groce's offense is to have the ball in the hands of his best playmaker and we are second in the MAC. 

 

Looking at the box score we lost this game because Toledo shot the ball better from field 50%, from the 3 point line, 45% and from the foul line, 89%.  Also, they outrebounded us by 10 whereas we outrebounded them by 10 at the Jar.  I saw at least one or 2 occasions where Wynn did not box out his man.  That has to change.  Rebounding is about boxing out and hustling and we lost that battle.  I also would have tried to have their Jackson pick up that last foul by isolating him on defense.  He really makes their team go. 

[MDZip]

12 hours ago, RoyalBlu said:

 

Zips at least catch a break as Kent's Nuga - who has been a strong Robin to Pippen's Batman - is apparently out for the season with an injury. That's 18 points a game gone. DNP vs. Miami as Kent had several 4-5 minute stretches without scoring. Don't think any other guard at Kent is averaging more than 8-pts a game.

This is going to sound weird but I'm disappointed by this. First for the kid, sucks to miss a season but also for the Zips it's much more fun to beat Kent when they are at full strength. ? Nuga is a good player. Heck of a rebounding guard too.

[NWAkron]

 

5 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

Thanks for posting Huggins comments because that is the Akron offense.  However, when I watched Toledo I thought they ran their offense better than the Zips.  If you watch a replay of the game see how close they run off their screens and quickly they move off the ball.  Their offense did create more space for their shooters because of their better off the ball motion.  I disagree with BigZip that LCJ is a ball hog.  He does dribble a lot and took twice as many shots as anyone else but he is the only one that could penetrate the Toledo defense.  Dailey had a couple great slashing moves to the basket but could not finish.  Trimble is a one dimentional 3 point shooter.  Ali has some nice moves but is not a great scorer.  Freeman's offense is limited to the pick and roll.  Reese has some great post moves and really contributed last night.  Tribble and Dawson wer not a factor last night.  Groce's offense is to have the ball in the hands of his best playmaker and we are second in the MAC. 

 

Looking at the box score we lost this game because Toledo shot the ball better from field 50%, from the 3 point line, 45% and from the foul line, 89%.  Also, they outrebounded us by 10 whereas we outrebounded them by 10 at the Jar.  I saw at least one or 2 occasions where Wynn did not box out his man.  That has to change.  Rebounding is about boxing out and hustling and we lost that battle.  I also would have tried to have their Jackson pick up that last foul by isolating him on defense.  He really makes their team go. 

an exact replay of last year's game at the JAR.  Toledo was lights out and also was red hot from the foul line which was always the Zips big advantage.   

8 non-conference games would have really helped the Zips.  None of the guys have the fire of Cheese and Banks.

[kreed5120]

14 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

Thanks for posting Huggins comments because that is the Akron offense.  However, when I watched Toledo I thought they ran their offense better than the Zips.  If you watch a replay of the game see how close they run off their screens and quickly they move off the ball.  Their offense did create more space for their shooters because of their better off the ball motion.  I disagree with BigZip that LCJ is a ball hog.  He does dribble a lot and took twice as many shots as anyone else but he is the only one that could penetrate the Toledo defense.  Dailey had a couple great slashing moves to the basket but could not finish.  Trimble is a one dimentional 3 point shooter.  Ali has some nice moves but is not a great scorer.  Freeman's offense is limited to the pick and roll.  Reese has some great post moves and really contributed last night.  Tribble and Dawson wer not a factor last night.  Groce's offense is to have the ball in the hands of his best playmaker and we are second in the MAC. 

 

Looking at the box score we lost this game because Toledo shot the ball better from field 50%, from the 3 point line, 45% and from the foul line, 89%.  Also, they outrebounded us by 10 whereas we outrebounded them by 10 at the Jar.  I saw at least one or 2 occasions where Wynn did not box out his man.  That has to change.  Rebounding is about boxing out and hustling and we lost that battle.  I also would have tried to have their Jackson pick up that last foul by isolating him on defense.  He really makes their team go. 

 

Yes, I was confused by this as well. Littleson also picked up his 4th foul with about 6 minutes left. He's one of, if not the best, 3 & D guy in the MAC this year. Getting him or Jackson out of the game could have really changed the complexion of the game.

[1981 grad]

6 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

 

Yes, I was confused by this as well. Littleson also picked up his 4th foul with about 6 minutes left. He's one of, if not the best, 3 & D guy in the MAC this year. Getting him or Jackson out of the game could have really changed the complexion of the game.

Basically, their 7 guys outplayed our 10 guys.  So much for wearing them down with our depth.  Groce has to get these guys to play better defense and rebound better against talented team.  No doubt about it, Toledo has 7 talented guys.

[Hilltopper]

11 hours ago, Bigzip1 said:

@zippy5 I don’t feel like looking up his usage rate right now but I’m pretty sure it’s higher than 95% of division 1 guards. You pound the rock for 15-20 seconds, finally dish to a semi open shooter for a catch n shoot attempt late in the shot clock you will get some assists lol our shooters aren’t bad they’re just off and on like most shooters, not to mention the assists he gets off teams overplaying ball screens. Our other guards have no chance to get any rhythm going they’re being forced to stand in the corner watch and hope he kicks the ball. 
 

actually that wasn’t a dig at all I’m just trying to put things in perspective for you. I think most of the guys on our roster could have went for 30 on the same amount of shots he took tonight.

After we clawed our way back to tie the game at 61, we had 3 empty possessions on offense in a row. LCJ dished to Ali who missed a wide open 6 footer, to Dailey who missed a wide open 3 and to Trimble who missed a wide open 3. On the other end of the court man bun guy made 2 3's and Jackson drove it to the hoop for 2 layups. Game over. Unless some of the other guys step up we will continue to see LCJ be forced to carry the load. BTW, M Jackson dod most of his damage in ISO situations with Wynn guarding him during UT's run to put the game away.

[monrowe]

This year is unique.Some teams have played only 7 games and it’s February, already.It’s hard to gauge a team’s chemistry or psychology in a pandemic.With all things considered if the Zips players and coaches remain COVID free and healthy then it’s always a win.I wouldn’t worry too much about this year, everyone is granted a extra year anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1981 grad]

4 hours ago, Hilltopper said:

After we clawed our way back to tie the game at 61, we had 3 empty possessions on offense in a row. LCJ dished to Ali who missed a wide open 6 footer, to Dailey who missed a wide open 3 and to Trimble who missed a wide open 3. On the other end of the court man bun guy made 2 3's and Jackson drove it to the hoop for 2 layups. Game over. Unless some of the other guys step up we will continue to see LCJ be forced to carry the load. BTW, M Jackson dod most of his damage in ISO situations with Wynn guarding him during UT's run to put the game away.

Wynn had a great dunk but defense, rebounding, and boxing out keeps you on the floor.  He needs to work on those areas of the game.

[akronzips71]

Sorry, but they are better than us.

[Captain Kangaroo]

16 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

Sorry, but they are better than us.

Luckily the most talented team doesn’t always win. 

[clarkwgriswold]

1 hour ago, akronzips71 said:

Sorry, but they are better than us.

On a night where Toledo shoots their normal 45-46% FG and 39% on three pointers instead of 50% and 44% and the Zips shoot their normal 46% and 33% instead of 42% and 32% and the Zips make 76% of their free throws instead of 61% , I don't think there's a significant difference between the two.  Toledo was sure the better of the two last night but I am not willing to concede they are the clear favorite yet.  I think on a neutral floor at the Fieldhouse, I could see the spread at 3, maybe 4, but the teams are pretty close if they both bring their regular games.  The first game was more indicative of the talent differential that last night.

[AkronAlumnus]

I don't think Toledo is necessarily better than us. We'll see them again and I like our chances.