Search For The Next Head Coach

[LZIp]

My long-winded thoughts regarding John Groce if he is our coach:

 

There were two "high profile" names brought up on this thread in the early hours of our coaching search. Tom Crean and John Groce. The fact that we are coming away with one of them, to me, is a home run! We could have hired Anthony Stewart, Jamion Christian, or even the McDevitt guy Mes has been gushing over, but all of those guys have never been a head coach in the MAC and cannot be looked at as anything else other than high risk and high reward candidates. There is no guarantee they would have had any success here and they do not have names to generate buzz for instate players.

 

I do not know all of the intricacies as to why Groce was fired at Illiniois. I did look at his record and he had one losing season, one season with 19 wins, and then had 20 or more wins in the other 3 seasons, including this season. I know how much this board likes our 20+ win season streak! The only difference is that Groce was doing this against the 1st or second best conference in the country in any given year. Now it isn't great, it just apparently wasn't up to a program like Illinois' standards, which is fine. It is certainly not bad I would argue his results were average to slightly above average for a P5 coach. What I do know is that there is quite a bit more politicking at large programs than there are at mid-majors. Some coaches can handle the change, others can't. Exhibit A - Charlie Strong. Charlie Strong was a failure at Texas even though he was a great coach at Louisville and put them on the map. Most probably thought it was a no-brainer that he would succeed at Texas, but the outside influences were apparently a change he had trouble managing. Does that make him a trash coach? Hell no. I would take him in a heartbeat over Bowden and most probably agree considering he was hired immediately at South Florida and I bet he does great things there.

 

Speaking of Texas, our beloved Shaka Smart is down there for basketball and isn't doing too hot. As a matter of fact, he is coming off of a worse season than Groce ever had at Illinois. Now I will call bullshit to any of you and nothing you can say will make me think otherwise if Texas fired Shaka and you said you didn't want him here because he failed at Texas.

 

I've seen Indiana fans want him on their staff. I've seen OU fans pissed about us probably getting him. They now think we will dominate the MAC for another decade. Do the fans on here who are unhappy think we know better than everyone else? Well you probably are smarter than the hillbillies down in Athens, but you all are going against the grain so much that it just looks questionable. I think the irrational dislike, whether some want to admit it or not, is because of the success he had at OU. Point out his regular season all you want. He still had a winning record (6-4) against the regular season king in Dambrot in his 4 years.

 

Groce has great connections all throughout Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Groce is a low risk and high reward hire. We know what he did at Ohio. Its hard for me to hold anything against whatever happens next season as the cupboard was already pretty bare and KD poaching players and other player leaving only makes it worse, but besides from that, AT WORST,  I cannot see how we are just a step lower than KD's consistent regular season success. Meaning most seasons you get your 20+ wins, maybe a 19er here or there, but the upside is so much more. He has a history of NCAA tourney success while coaching in our conference and is the only coach to achieve that success in the past 15 years! Better yet, he has done it multiple times! The powerhouse he was on the verge of creating down in Athens before he bolted has been well noted on here. That can be us!

 

What I additionally like is that he has already jumped to the big school and failed. 1) There is plenty for him to learn from that and make himself a better coach and person. 2) Him failing there will make him less likely to jump up again at first chance if given the opportunity. I'm sure he will want to make a calculated move up, if any, to best ensure success. 3) Him failing there will make bigger schools LESS likely to target him if he has similar success here as he had at OU. They have a sample size and it may make them hesitant to pull the trigger on him. All of this means more Groce for a longer period of time, which is a good thing if its all going good. A young up and comer like the names mentioned above could be here for only even a year or two and then gone and then we are back at this point. Now that wouldn't be a bad thing, but if I had to choose I would take the continuity over risking a new hire every few years.

 

While I like the hire, I don't root for coaches, I don't root for players. I root for the name on the front of the jersey no matter who is playing or coaching. I hope you all do the same. Put your personal vendetta that exists because he owned our best coach in history aside. We were all concerned about being able to at minimum maintain the status quo and that is very reasonable with him, and his known upside is obviously a huge plus.

 

Go Zips!!

 

 

 

 

 

(hopefully this negotiations don't fall apart and I typed and thought of all of this for nothing).

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by LZIp

[wadszip]

3 minutes ago, ZachTheZip said:

 

Being a good assistant and being a good head coach are two very different things. Groce would make a great recruiting coordinator for a bigger program. Doesn't mean he can develop players or out-scheme the better MAC coaches.

Yeah, because it takes John Wooden to out scheme the juggernaut that is the MAC. 

 

In all seriousness, my biggest beef with Groce (when he was at OU) was that he was an average Xs and Os coach. Still, he put together two MAC tourney title teams in four years and advanced beyond the first round in both appearances. Who knows, the Illinois experience may have humbled him and he may focus more on actual coaching. Or maybe he is what he is (and will simply out recruit the rest of the MAC schools and get away with talent).

 

Either way, hard to be against this hire.

[Valpo Zip]

2 hours ago, Zip_ME87 said:

Don't know what to think about hiring Groce, but here's some food for thought while we're posting tweets...

 

That's a ridiculous statement to make. If anything, it makes more sense to assume that if Brian Walsh makes that shot, Groce stays at OU for another year and brings in Caris Levert and OU makes the Elite 8 the following year. 

If Ifs and buts were bolts and nuts!   

[wadszip]

8 minutes ago, akronzips71 said:

The BIGGGGG question is not whether he can coach, it is going to be the roster. He needs to replace Big Dog, Kwan, Antino and maybe some others.

 

That question is the same for any coach. It's not like if somebody else was hired, those guys were coming back ... plus, maybe Antino reconsiders after this. Probably not if his hometown Houston offers him a scholarship. But you have to think Groce at least makes him think twice (same with Noah). And I bet Utomi and Jimond have to be excited.

[wadszip]

3 minutes ago, Valpo Zip said:

That's a ridiculous statement to make. If anything, it makes more sense to assume that if Brian Walsh makes that shot, Groce stays at OU for another year and brings in Caris Levert and OU makes the Elite 8 the following year. 

If Ifs and buts were bolts and nuts!   

 

Lol, that's a great point. Out of likes so +2.

[NWAkron]

Valpo Zip and LZip ... Well done.  

 

Good night.  Go Zips.  

[mes102]

LZip, wadszip, and ValpoZip, +1(I'm out of likes)

The year they made it to the Sweet 16, they had to face #1 seed North Carolina. Even though Kendall Marshall was out, UNC had a ton of talent on that team. You can argue and say they had more talent on that team than the team that won the national title this year.

John Groce and his kittens took the Tar Heels to overtime.

- Beating Georgetown in NCAA Tourney
- Beating Michigan and USF to make it to Sweet 16
- Taking North Carolina to overtime in the Sweet 16
- Beating #1 Indiana on an out of bounds play(while at Illinois)

And a lot of other magical games for him. He finds himself in those games on a consistent basis, and majority of the time, he finds his way to be in them and pull out a win. I much rather have that than have our 20+ wins per season streak continue and lose in the MAC Championship game(or get blown out in the NCAA tourney).
 

Edited April 5, 2017 by mes102

[wadszip]

9 minutes ago, LZIp said:

My long-winded thoughts regarding John Groce if he is our coach:

 

There were two "high profile" names brought up on this thread in the early hours of our coaching search. Tom Crean and John Groce. The fact that we are coming away with one of them, to me, is a home run! We could have hired Anthony Stewart, Jamion Christian, or even the McDevitt guy Mes has been gushing over, but all of those guys have never been a head coach in the MAC and cannot be looked at as anything else other than high risk and high reward candidates. There is no guarantee they would have had any success here and they do not have names to generate buzz for instate players.

 

I do not know all of the intricacies as to why Groce was fired at Illiniois. I did look at his record and he had one losing season, one season with 19 wins, and then had 20 or more wins in the other 3 seasons, including this season. I know how much this board likes our 20+ win season streak! The only difference is that Groce was doing this against the 1st or second best conference in the country in any given year. Now it isn't great, it just apparently wasn't up to a program like Illinois' standards, which is fine. It is certainly not bad I would argue his results were average to slightly above average for a P5 coach. What I do know is that there is quite a bit more politicking at large programs than there are at mid-majors. Some coaches can handle the change, others can't. Exhibit A - Charlie Strong. Charlie Strong was a failure at Texas even though he was a great coach at Louisville and put them on the map. Most probably thought it was a no-brainer that he would succeed at Texas, but the outside influences were apparently a change he had trouble managing. Does that make him a trash coach? Hell no. I would take him in a heartbeat over Bowden and most probably agree considering he was hired immediately at South Florida and I bet he does great things there.

 

Speaking of Texas, our beloved Shaka Smart is down there for basketball and isn't doing too hot. As a matter of fact, he is coming off of a worse season than Groce ever had at Illinois. Now I will call bullshit to any of you and nothing you can say will make me think otherwise if Texas fired Shaka and you said you didn't want him here because he failed at Texas.

 

I've seen Indiana fans want him on their staff. I've seen OU fans pissed about us probably getting him. They now think we will dominate the MAC for another decade. Do the fans on here who are unhappy think we know better than everyone else? Well you probably are smarter than the hillbillies down in Athens, but you all are going against the grain so much that it just looks questionable. I think the irrational dislike, whether some want to admit it or not, is because of the success he had at OU. Point out his regular season all you want. He still had a winning record (6-4) against the regular season king in Dambrot in his 4 years.

 

Groce has great connections all throughout Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois. Groce is a low risk and high reward hire. We know what he did at Ohio. Its hard for me to hold anything against whatever happens next season as the cupboard was already pretty bare and KD poaching players and other player leaving only makes it worse, but besides from that, AT WORST,  I cannot see how we are just a step lower than KD's consistent regular season success. Meaning most seasons you get your 20+ wins, maybe a 19er here or there, but the upside is so much more. He has a history of NCAA tourney success while coaching in our conference and is the only coach to have to do so in the past 15 years! Better yet, he has done it multiple times! The powerhouse he was on the verge of creating down in Athens before he bolted has been well noted on here. That can be us!

 

What I additionally like is that he has already jumped to the big school and failed. 1) There is plenty for him to learn from that and make himself a better coach and person. 2) Him failing there will make him less likely to jump up again at first chance if given the opportunity. I'm sure he will want to make a calculated move up, if any, to best ensure success. 3) Him failing there will make bigger schools LESS likely to target him if he has similar success here as he had at OU. They have a sample size and it may make them hesitant to pull the trigger on him. All of this means more Groce for a longer period of time, which is a good thing if its all going good. A young up and comer like the names mentioned above could be here for only even a year or two and then gone and then we are back at this point. Now that wouldn't be a bad thing, but if I had to choose I would take the continuity over risking a new hire every few years.

 

While I like the hire, I don't root for coaches, I don't root for players. I root for the name on the front of the jersey no matter who is playing or coaching. I hope you all do the same. Put your personal vendetta that exists because he owned our best coach in history aside. We were all concerned about being able to at minimum maintain the status quo and that is very reasonable with him, and his known upside is obviously a huge plus.

 

Go Zips!!

 

 

 

 

 

(hopefully this negotiations don't fall apart and I typed and thought of all of this for nothing).

 

LZ, 

 

Again, out of likes. But this is a great post. Tip my cap. This is almost to the tee, exactly how I feel about this hire.

[zippy5]

Let's hope we seal the deal. I'm excited. I'm going to check out his OOC scheduling at OU tomorrow to see what kind of schedule we can expect going forward.

Edited April 5, 2017 by zippy5

[Zip_ME87]

Let the self-righteous, pat-each-other-on-the-buttocks love fest continue....

 

Never said I didn't like the hire. Although I'm not from Missouri, I need any coach to show me that he can do it at Akron before I claim that he is JC of Akron MBB.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Zip_ME87

[mes102]

What Illinois thinks of Groce to Akron
(post 641 for those that want to skip the Georgetown/Ewing discussion)

http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=23769&page=26

Edited April 5, 2017 by mes102

[skip-zip]

8 hours ago, wadszip said:

how do you know he didn't get approached by other schools and he flat out said, I'm not interested? It's been widely reported by Indiana people he had a spot on Archie Miller's staff if he wanted it. That should tell you that he is still well thought of.

 

Correct.  And how do you know that did happen either?  

 

I like the "widely reported" reference.  And that's for an Asst. job.  

[Dr Z]

6 hours ago, mes102 said:

What Illinois thinks of Groce to Akron 

 

Peoria Illini writes "Good for Groce! I'm assuming Dustin Ford and possibly Parnham may follow him there. We'll see him in the dance in a few years."

 

Dustin Ford

Dustin Ford is in his fifth season as an assistant coach for the Fighting Illini. He was hired in April 2012 to coach John Groce's first staff at Illinois.

Prior to coming to Illinois, Ford served on Groce's Ohio University staff for four seasons from 2009-12, helping guide the Bobcats to an 85-56 overall record. Ford specialized in working with the frontcourt, aiding in the improvement of players such as Jerome Tillman (first-team All-MAC in 2009), DeVaughn Washington (honorable mention All-MAC in 2011) and Ivo Baltic (honorable mention All-MAC in 2012). Prior to his stint in Athens, Ford served three years as an assistant coach and recruiting coordinator on Larry Hunter's staff at Western Carolina from 2006-08 and was promoted to associate head coach in the spring of 2008. During his tenure at Western Carolina, he was responsible for recruiting two eventual Southern Conference Defensive Players of the Year in Brigham Waginger (2010) and Richie Gordon (2011) and a SoCon Freshman of the Year in Harouna Mutombo (2009).

Ford began his coaching career as the head varsity coach at Jackson High School in Jackson, Ohio, for four seasons from 2002-05.

 

Paris Parnham

Paris Parham is in his fifth season as an assistant coach on John Groce's Fighting Illini staff. The Chicago native is an 18-year veteran of the coaching profession.

Parham came to Illinois after five years as an assistant at Illinois State. ISU won 104 games during Parham's tenure on former head coach Tim Jankovich's staff. The Redbirds recorded four 20-plus win seasons in five years, advancing to the NIT four times and the Missouri Valley Tournament championship game three times.

Parham spent the previous three years in Chicago, serving one season as head coach at Morgan Park (2007) and two seasons as head coach at Phillips Academy (2005-06). He was the Chicago Public League's Red-Central Coach of the Year in 2005 after leading Phillips to an undefeated conference record. During this time, Parham also coached with the AAU program Full Package and assisted at the Chicago Bulls Training Academy.

 

 

10 hours ago, mes102 said:

Here's Groce press conference AFTER he already was let go at Illinois:
 

 

 

Impressive. 

[kreed5120]

He didn't have to take the Akron job. He has offsetting language in his Illinois contract so every dollar we pay him, that is 1 less dollar Illinois has to. There is no doubt in my mind that had he taken the Indiana assistant gig this season, he would have had offers next year.

[zippyfan34]

45 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

He didn't have to take the Akron job. He has offsetting language in his Illinois contract so every dollar we pay him, that is 1 less dollar Illinois has to. There is no doubt in my mind that had he taken the Indiana assistant gig this season, he would have had offers next year.

So the contract should be for $100,000 the first 2 years and then a big jump after that?

[LZIp]

45 minutes ago, zippyfan34 said:

So the contract should be for $100,000 the first 2 years and then a big jump after that?

One can only hope...lol. I'd guess he will be getting something closer to his fair market value, though,

[Gallucci]

I hope Groce is very successful at UA, but as I noted in a post earlier postseason success is about catching lightning in a bottle (especially at the mid to low major level) so don't expect that because he won three NCAA tournament games while at OU that he will be able to do the same here. He was also only able to go 34-30 against the MAC, and while at Illinois he was only 37-53 against his league. Again, there is no debating that he has accomplished some great things, but league record is also very telling for a coach because it shows how you do against programs with similar facilities, budget, location etc..

[blueandgold]

14 hours ago, LZIp said:

He just pulled in a consensus top 10 class this year.

What are the chances Groce can convince 1 or more of these top recruits to follow him to Akron? That is something to keep an eye on.

[Let'sGoZips94]

2 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

What are the chances Groce can convince 1 or more of these top recruits to follow him to Akron? That is something to keep an eye on.

 

At least one recruit has already said they will honor their initial commitment to Illinois. I hope he doesn't try to pull the players to Akron. I admired in that press conference video that he said to the recruits to continue to go to Illinois. Now, if they make the decision to follow him on their own, I won't complain. 

[Captain Kangaroo]

19 minutes ago, Gallucci said:

I hope Groce is very successful at UA, but as I noted in a post earlier postseason success is about catching lightning in a bottle (especially at the mid to low major level) so don't expect that because he won three NCAA tournament games while at OU that he will be able to do the same here. He was also only able to go 34-30 against the MAC, and while at Illinois he was only 37-53 against his league. Again, there is no debating that he has accomplished some great things, but league record is also very telling for a coach because it shows how you do against programs with similar facilities, budget, location etc..

Someone posted a comparison of Groce and Dambrot's  2009-10 thru 2011-12 records. Dambrot had a slight edge in overall wins. Groce had a "blow-Dambrot-out-of-the-water," landslide edge in post season success. It was also surmised that Dambrot's overall win total advantage may have been bolstered by a comparatively weak OOC schedule.

 

Someone once called Dan Hipsher "Bobby Knight, without the wins."

 

Groce could be "Keith Dambrot, WITH the wins"? Only those pesky post-season wins of course.

[LZIp]

18 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

What are the chances Groce can convince 1 or more of these top recruits to follow him to Akron? That is something to keep an eye on.

Probably none. But I would settle for Toles/Patton/Frankie Hughes. Especially Hughes.

Edited April 5, 2017 by LZIp

[morris buttermaker]

26 minutes ago, blueandgold said:

What are the chances Groce can convince 1 or more of these top recruits to follow him to Akron? That is something to keep an eye on.

Has less than 0% been taken yet?

Edit LZip has picked none.

Edited April 5, 2017 by morris buttermaker

[MDZip]

11 hours ago, Zip_ME87 said:

Although I'm not from Missouri, I need any coach to show me that he can do it at Akron before I claim that he is JC of Akron MBB.

Jim Christian (or Jamion)?  Well even if it was only done to annoy Bobcat fans I'm OK with it. I hope it's simply analogous to another situation about ten years ago when another respected and successful coach bolted Akron soccer because of frustration of being "unable to win in Akron". And then ...

[Let'sGoZips94]

5 minutes ago, MDZip said:

Jim Christian (or Jamion)?  Well even if it was only done to annoy Bobcat fans I'm OK with it. I hope it's simply analogous to another situation about ten years ago when another respected and successful coach bolted Akron soccer because of frustration of being "unable to win in Akron". And then ...

 

 

 

[Gallucci]

1 hour ago, Captain Kangaroo said:

Someone posted a comparison of the comparative records of Groce and Dambrot while Groce was in the MAC (2009-10 thru 2011-12). Dambrot had a slight edge in overall wins. Groce had a "blow-Dambrot-out-of-the-water," landslide edge in post season success. It was also surmised that Dambrot's overall win total advantage may have been bolstered by a comparatively weak OOC schedule.

 

Someone once called Dan Hipsher "Bobby Knight, without the wins."

 

Groce could be "Keith Dambrot, WITH the wins"? Only those pesky post-season wins of course.

 

I am not sure I would say slight edge... MAC record: Groce 34-30, Dambrot 44-20