2024 Post Mortem and Looking Ahead to 2025.

[clarkwgriswold]

Lots of MAC talent in the portal, but if I was Groce I'd be contacting the Swedish Embassy and imploring them to help bring Konan Niederhauser from Northern Illinois to Akron!

[Zip JD]

4 hours ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

I agree on Prather. The question is does he want to play at this level for the Zips? I hope so, but his lack of usage when we needed scoring was puzzling. 

Prather like Tavari had trouble on the defensive end.  He appeared to never really grasp the rotations and gave up a lot of back door cuts.  Shooting 50-60% does not cover up giving up lay ups and dunks.  That is what got him back on the bench (at least judging by the looks on Groce's face when it would happen).  Prather looks like he will figure it out.  TJ, on the other hand?

 

I did like when Prather went to the line in a close game and nailed 2 foul shots.  I believe it was against NIU, but it was the game where Thorton was at the line earlier and put the first one WIDE left and then barely hit the rim on the second one.  The shots were so bad Groce had to pull him for the last minutes to avoid him going back to the line.

[GoZips88]

We need a #3 like Oakland has. Two would be even better. Gotta score ...

[Zip JD]

5 hours ago, mrelegazna said:

Going into the season, the book on the Zips was that their deep frontcourt would carry the team offensively; with the backcourt being thinner, and our best guard being both ineffective and uninterested in shooting behind the arc, this would be a team that bullies teams inside.

 

Instead, this team finished in the uppermost quartile in 3-pointers taken as a percentage of total field goal attempts (41.5%) despite ending up 274th in the country in 3PT%.

 

 

I didn't view this team as deep in the front court.  You had Freeman as the only real banger, granted a MAC POY big but he was it.  Hunter was the tallest, but he preferred to roam outside, and Lyles barely saw the floor.  Nobody besides Freeman regularly boxed out (See EMU game).  Aziz would have been a key piece to still have.  Hell, even Deng Riak would have helped us.

 

Your second line holds the true demise of the Zips.  Thorn and Scott were ice cold all year and both eventually got benched.  By the end of the season Thorn's defense was weak and he was terrible with the ball.  The poor kid looked shell shocked and was nothing near the 9 pts a game, best MAC assist/TO PG he was before coming to us.  I thought Hankerson was the most unimpressive one and done for us, but he would have been a godsend for this team.  The Nate injury hurt but he was averaging about 8 pts before he was sidelined.  I have NO IDEA what happened to Dawson or TJ's shots nor do they.  It was amazing Groce got the Zips to the dance when the bench bunch seemed to shoot a combined 10-20% down the stretch.  Next Halloween, skip the haunted houses, just read the box scores.  They were terrifying.  

[Blue & Gold]

2020>2022>2023>2024

 

Yeah, we won the MAC but we're on an overall downward trend.

 

Let's go Groce & Co. Don't let winning the MAC be deodorant.

[Zippy87]

To me, getting over the hump is going to have to be a department-wide mission. Remember "think bigger" from years ago? It needs to become a reality.

 

Get the improvements to the JAR mentioned here done. Work to actively assist players to get NIL deals.  Market and promote your team effectively. Don't take Groce for granted like Larry Williams did with Dambrot. If you want to be a respected mid-major who can make noise in March, you have to act like it first.

[Let'sGoZips94]

4 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

To me, getting over the hump is going to have to be a department-wide mission. Remember "think bigger" from years ago? It needs to become a reality.

 

Get the improvements to the JAR mentioned here done. Work to actively assist players to get NIL deals.  Market and promote your team effectively. Don't take Groce for granted like Larry Williams did with Dambrot. If you want to be a respected mid-major who can make noise in March, you have to act like it first.

 

If you want to become the next Butler/Creighton and elevate yourself out of the MAC, sure. In the meantime, this is simply a coaching staff mission: find some shooters. 

[Zippy87]

11 minutes ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

If you want to become the next Butler/Creighton and elevate yourself out of the MAC, sure. In the meantime, this is simply a coaching staff mission: find some shooters. 

 

I'm more worried about keeping up with UMass in two years than I am getting out of the MAC.

[Captain Kangaroo]

48 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

I'm more worried about keeping up with UMass in two years than I am getting out of the MAC.

When Dambrot left the Zips, I and a few others said - It's easier to win the MAC than to finish in the Top 4 in the A-10.

 

Looks like UMass figured it out. They will be the MAC favorite when they arrive. The road to Pittsburgh or wherever else the NCAA Round 1's are held in the future just got a lot more difficult for the legacy MAC schools. If Western Kentucky comes next, look out.

 

Who will come to a Rocket Mortgage Field House MAC final to watch UMass vs. the Hilloppers? I bet even Hilltopper wouldn't go.

[tolbob]

1 hour ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

If you want to become the next Butler/Creighton and elevate yourself out of the MAC, sure. In the meantime, this is simply a coaching staff mission: find some shooters. 

 

 

Oakland's Jack Gohlke went 10 for 20 3's and beat Kentucky. They had what we lacked.  Gohlke came from Hillsdale Collège, just an hour north of Toledo.  Was he on our radar?  Probably not a great defender that Groce wants, but at some point we need shooters to stretch the field.

[Reslife4Life]

2 hours ago, tolbob said:

 

 

Oakland's Jack Gohlke went 10 for 20 3's and beat Kentucky. They had what we lacked.  Gohlke came from Hillsdale Collège, just an hour north of Toledo.  Was he on our radar?  Probably not a great defender that Groce wants, but at some point we need shooters to stretch the field.

Gohlke has taken EIGHT two pointers all year. I feel like that would be tough to recruit a guy from D2 that is so reliant on the three

[kreed5120]

3 hours ago, Zippy87 said:

 

I'm more worried about keeping up with UMass in two years than I am getting out of the MAC.

Yes, someone shared an article from one of the Massachusetts publications interviewing the UMass athletic director. Apparently UMass has a collective specifically for basketball. The athletic director mentioned few to no other MAC programs have one and that it should give them a competitive edge. Apparently the collective pays out $500k/yr. I can easily see them becoming the MAC team that poaches players like Cochran from other MAC teams.

Edited March 22 by kreed5120

[ZippyRulz]

sounds like the catalyst we need to make MAC basketball relevant again, looking forward to it. If I had a word of advice for them it would be to do the same for football. 

[Illini Zip]

On 3/21/2024 at 3:16 PM, Zippy87 said:

Our frontcourt next year is currently Amani Lyles, two redshirt freshmen in Baker and MMK, and a true freshman in Rich Brisco. I have to imagine we'll want to add at least one player to that mix (and Lyles may even be a portal candidate IMO).

I support adding a big from the portal if Rich Brisco is likely to redshirt. I expect the other 3 will be playing plenty. I doubt Lyles is going anywhere. We haven't seen much of him at all and we have seen even less of him in a guard oriented offense. Meaning don't compare him to Freeman. I don't think he is a pure post up type player. I expect him to move around a lot and stretch the floor with his shot. I hope so anyway.

 

I also believe that losing Aziz Bandaogo set us back. 

 

 

On 3/21/2024 at 3:16 PM, Zippy87 said:

I also think they pretty clearly need a guard who can create and score. 

I agree. Coit or someone similar for a season would be awesome. I see Tavari being a serious contributor next season, but not THE man. He has a chance to be the man his Senior year if he applies himself.

 

I too hope Sharron Young is the next best thing since sliced bread. He definitely won't red-shirt. Point guards rarely do. But he will be a back up at least early on. 

 

 

On 3/21/2024 at 3:16 PM, Zippy87 said:

The staff swung and missed on the two guards we added last year and can't afford to do that again this summer.

We very much needed a dynamic point guard this year who could create and score. In that way, I agree we failed. But I still see growth potential in Scott and he is likely going to take on Tribble's defensive duties.

 

 

Edited March 22 by Illini Zip

[Illini Zip]

19 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

Groce will bring in some help.  They're already probing the portal.  Also, that help will be in the form of unselfish kids who can be good teammates and play Groce ball, not merely kids with nice stats.  At Akron, it's about fit, not strictly numbers.

 

Shammah was very good in the last 3 weeks.  I don't at all consider him a waste and Groce clearly doesn't either with the way he used him in the last month. 

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[clarkwgriswold]

Whoever Groce brings in, I will be confident that they are good kids.  As pointed out in the Pluto article today (which has since been paywalled, grrrrrrrr), a player at Akron has to be unselfish and not have their own agenda.  That's what made this team so special, they were not only talented but seemed to just be good kids.  We all like to look at kids who can score or jump out of the gym but I want no piece of them if they're going to come in here and not put the team first.  PCCC can have the Reggie Basses of the portal  who change teams like underwear and are more concerned with their stats than the team.  For the Zips, I'll take the Greg Tribbles of the basketball world that will put their body on the line for their teammates.

[Illini Zip]

18 hours ago, Zip JD said:

Prather like Tavari had trouble on the defensive end.  He appeared to never really grasp the rotations and gave up a lot of back door cuts.  Shooting 50-60% does not cover up giving up lay ups and dunks.  That is what got him back on the bench (at least judging by the looks on Groce's face when it would happen).  Prather looks like he will figure it out.  TJ, on the other hand?

 

I did like when Prather went to the line in a close game and nailed 2 foul shots.  I believe it was against NIU, but it was the game where Thorton was at the line earlier and put the first one WIDE left and then barely hit the rim on the second one.  The shots were so bad Groce had to pull him for the last minutes to avoid him going back to the line.

Did Prather show enough promise to avoid being recruited over? I do believe so. And he seems to have a high care-factor. For him, just like with Dawson it comes down to defensive match up. He can't guard faster players, but he has the size to hold his ground in conference play. And the verdict is still out, but I think he can shoot.

[Illini Zip]

On 3/21/2024 at 2:51 PM, mrelegazna said:

Instead, this team finished in the uppermost quartile in 3-pointers taken as a percentage of total field goal attempts (41.5%) despite ending up 274th in the country in 3PT%.

This is one of the great mysteries to this season. As a team, we were just awful. Were we pressing or something? Was it the different offensive scheme? But we had so many open looks and even the guys who have proven themselves in the past were missing. The water never found its level. On the other hand, Tribble and Freeman showed much improvement from deep.

[clarkwgriswold]

Two kids I'd like to find a clone for on the portal are Tyler Cheese and Xeryius Williams.  Cheese could play the point or off guard, facilitate or go get a bucket.  X could play inside and work as a backup 5 and go out on the floor and hit the outside shot.  That kind of flexibility goes a long way.

[Zippy87]

It will be interesting to watch college coaches - especially at mid-majors - and how they adapt to the changes the transfer portal and NIL have brought to the game.

 

For instance, if Akron recruits a high school player, they redshirt, play their freshman year, then transfer, is it even worth it? Having them take one of 13 scholarships for two seasons to only get their sophomore year? 

[1981 grad]

I am a long time Zip fan and and about halfway through the season when we were undefeated in MAC play and I heard Freeman and Tribble indicate that this team had another gear that they had not played their best basketball.  I believed them and thought we were going to have a special season going undefeated in the MAC or at most 1 or 2 losses because the MAC was having a down year.  I thought we would would win the MAC tourney and finally have a good shot at winning our first NCAA game.

 

 Then we played a tier one team, James Madison, and our bench scored a total of 4 points.  I thought that this team lacks the bench talent to beat a tier one team in the NCAA tournament.  And then we started losing to some really bad MAC teams.  And there was one consistent weakness the entire season, we did not have a player who could knock down 3 points shooter and as a team we were really bad at hitting outside shots.  We ranked 262 in the country in 3 point percentage and had the 2nd worst 3 point shooting Akron team in the past 10 year.  

 

And Groce knew going into the season he had a stud inside player, Freeman, who could dominate the middle.  He had 3 players, Ali, Tribble, and Hunter who could score in different ways.  He had 3 guys that had showed potential, Tavari, Nate, and Dawson.   All he had to do was to bring in 2 guards that could knock down the 3 so that teams could not double and triple team Freeman.  In football terms, if you have a stud quarterback, you search the portal for offensive lineman to protect your stud.  In basketball terms, you bring in a shooter that if they double and triple team Freeman he can play inside out and have a shooter make the 3 ball.  Instead,  he brought in Thornton and Scott who could not shoot the 3 ball and could not create their own shot.  Groce, who brought us X and LCJ, picked the worst year to strike out when using the transfer pool to bring in 2 guards.  In the latter part of the season teams just double and triple teamed Freeman and we struggled to shoot the 3 ball.

 

I think Groce is a great coach and brings in quality student athletes.  I know we won in Cleveland and got to the tourney and should be happy with that achievement.  However, I would ask everyone on this board one question, did this team meet or exceed your expectations when we started this season. 

Edited March 23 by 1981 grad

[clarkwgriswold]

40 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

I think Groce is a great coach and brings in quality student athletes.  I know we won in Cleveland and got to the tourney and should be happy with that achievement.  However, I would ask everyone on this board one question, did this team meet or exceed your expectations when we started this season. 

 

They had some losses I didn't like or expect and didn't win the regular season MAC title as I expected, but the final result was what I expected- winning the MAC tournament and going to the NCAA tournament where they would likely be a low seed underdog and lose.

[mrelegazna]

4 hours ago, Illini Zip said:

This is one of the great mysteries to this season. As a team, we were just awful. Were we pressing or something? Was it the different offensive scheme? But we had so many open looks and even the guys who have proven themselves in the past were missing. The water never found its level. On the other hand, Tribble and Freeman showed much improvement from deep.

 

It's hard for me not to get into the weeds here with abstract basketball philosophy with this sort of stuff.  Outside shooting, I believe, is VERY much a mental game once you've achieved a certain level of shooting competence (for which I would describe pretty much all D1 guards and most frontcourt players as it pertains to outside shooting).

You have to have confidence in your stroke.  And, I believe, the most difficult time to manifest that confidence is when the other team is on a big run and has all the momentum.  So difficult, in fact, I don't think you should be doin' it! 

 

So many times this year I've begged the Zips on my TV to stop shooting 3's and jumpers, get it inside by either feeding Enrique or penetrating.  I know these guys think they can hit that knockdown three that will stop the bleeding, shut up the other team, and get back on track, just by doing the same thing they do thousands of times in practice and dozens of times in games, but it's not that simple.  You have to have some sort of understanding of how momentum swings work, and how to break momentum when it's in the other team's favor.

I don't pretend to know how to do that, exactly.  I think it has something to do with staying in the moment - there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow, there is no 2 minutes ago, there is no 2 minutes from now - there is only this shot - but not only is that easier said than done, but how the hell do you immunize yourself as much as possible from the other team's runs while taking advantage of the confidence boosts to your shot that having momentum in your team's favor gets you?  

 

Again, I don't know how to solve that puzzle, but a) if the Zips don't have one already, I would implore Groce, and indeed every Zips coach from now to the end of time to hire a sports psychologist, full time, to work on just this type of thing.

 

b), Groce needs to stop giving the green light to everyone at all times, which I kind of suspect he gives players.  A lot of posters have made great points about how Groce brings in unselfish, good people as players, and the transfer portal so far has hit us far, far less than most programs.  This means Groce is earning players' trust, and this is probably one way he is doing it: I believe in you (and therefore, your shot) in all circumstances.

That's obviously well-intentioned, but if I'm coaching a basketball team I am absolutely putting the kibbosh on all jumpers, from anybody, at certain points of the game (namely, as described above, when the other team is on a run). 

 

I would try to instill in my players that such prohibitions have absolutely nothing to do with my faith or belief in them or their game and everything to do with knowing the best way to get ourselves out of hairy game situations.  It's an easy and frequent lesson that there's no player bigger than the team.  But there's also no player bigger than the GAME.  The game works a certain way, and if it's going a way you don't like, you might have to check your ego in order to correct it.

 

12 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

I am a long time Zip fan and and about halfway through the season when we were undefeated in MAC play and I heard Freeman and Tribble indicate that this team had another gear that they had not played their best basketball.  I believed them and thought we were going to have a special season going undefeated in the MAC or at most 1 or 2 losses because the MAC was having a down year.  I thought we would would win the MAC tourney and finally have a good shot at winning our first NCAA game.

 

 Then we played a tier one team, James Madison, and our bench scored a total of 4 points.  I thought that this team lacks the bench talent to beat a tier one team in the NCAA tournament.  And then we started losing to some really bad MAC teams.  And there was one consistent weakness the entire season, we did not have a player who could knock down 3 points shooter and as a team we were really bad at hitting outside shots.  We ranked 262 in the country in 3 point percentage and had the 2nd worst 3 point shooting Akron team in the past 10 year.  

 

And Groce knew going into the season he had a stud inside player, Freeman, who could dominate the middle.  He had 3 players, Ali, Tribble, and Hunter who could score in different ways.  He had 3 guys that had showed potential, Tavari, Nate, and Dawson.   All he had to do was to bring in 2 guards that could knock down the 3 so that teams could not double and triple team Freeman.  In football terms, if you have a stud quarterback, the search the portal for offensive lineman to protect your stud.  In basketball terms, you bring in a shooter that if they double and triple team Freeman he can play inside out and have a shooter make the 3 ball.  Instead,  he brought in Thornton and Scott who could not shoot the 3 ball and could not create their own shot.  Groce, who brought us X and LCJ, picked the worst year to strike out when using the transfer pool to bring in 2 guards.  In the latter part of the season teams just double and triple teamed Freeman and we struggled to shoot the 3 ball.

 

I think Groce is a great coach and brings in quality student athletes.  I know we won in Cleveland and got to the tourney and should be happy with that achievement.  However, I would ask everyone on this board one question, did this team meet or exceed your expectations when we started this season. 

Great post.  I think something happened - who knows what, maybe nothing concrete - around the James Madison game that took the venom out of their stingers pretty much permanently.  They got their groove back in spurts in the MAC tourney and the first half against Creighton, but this team just stopped playing as well as they can,  and definitely not out of a lack of effort.  So again, I think a sports psychologist is in order.

To answer your question, the team met my preseason expectations, and fell short of my midway-through-the-season expectations.

[MDZip]

On 3/21/2024 at 4:04 PM, zipsrule said:

Not even close.  In 2013, we lost to VCU 88-42.

And even without that one it's kind of splitting hairs. 

 

2024 lost by 17, 60-77 to Creighton 

2022 lost to UCLA by 4, closest loss ever 53-57

2013 lost by 46! 🤮 to VCU 42-88

2011 lost to Notre Dame by 13, 56-69

2009 lost by 13 to Gonzaga 64-77

1986 lost by 6 to Michigan 64-70

 

So 17 isn't great but isn't that out of line. 

 

BTW our seeds in those games starting with the most recent were 14, 13, 12, 15, 13 and 15. 

Edited March 23 by MDZip

[Reslife4Life]

I think the team hit their second gear in the second half of the OU game in Cleveland. Going from scoring 16 in a half, to scoring 49 and winning (and covering!) That took something special, we saw it out of this team. It was going to either take a down night by Creighton or a third gear to win yesterday by the way they were playing. In no way do I think this team underachieved. Yes we lost a couple games we shouldn’t have, but no team is undefeated this year. We didn’t underachieve because of: an amazing putback dunk (EMU), crazy fadeaway jumper near the buzzer (St. Bonn, Miami), stupid TO after a steal (Utah St), that stuff just happens over the course of 35 games.