Game 14- Central Michigan

[blueandgold]

15 minutes ago, Zips Win! said:

So, who likes the new offense hoisting 41 three pointers up?  Are all of these attempts considered good 

shots?  What defines a good shot in the flow of the offense?  

 

I'm up for a good discussion on this...

Personally I don't like it. I watched the game against Bowling Green and it just seemed so chaotic and frustrating. I really didn't enjoy watching it. 

[clarkwgriswold]

I'm more of a fan of it when the ball is going in the basket!  LOL.

 

In reality, I am not a fan of the fast pace and the heavy reliance of 3 pointers but I think it is essentially the type of offense they're forced to play if they wish to be successful given the composition of the team.

[LZIp]

Just win baby. Seems like the teams that are dangerous from 3 are the ones who make some noise in March.

[Let'sGoZips94]

4 hours ago, Zips Win! said:

So, who likes the new offense hoisting 41 three pointers up?  Are all of these attempts considered good 

shots?  What defines a good shot in the flow of the offense?  

 

I'm up for a good discussion on this...

3 hours ago, blueandgold said:

Personally I don't like it. I watched the game against Bowling Green and it just seemed so chaotic and frustrating. I really didn't enjoy watching it. 

 

I love it. @blueandgold is correct in that it is chaotic and frustrating, but that's by design. It's frustrating for fans when the ball doesn't go in at a great clip, but it's even more frustrating for opponents. Here's why.

 

Most teams do not have the quantity of shooters that the Zips have. There are 2 players that regularly play in an Akron uniform who do not shoot 3s - Okonkwo and MMK. This means the majority of Akron's shooting attempts are going to be from beyond the arc. For every 2 3's Akron makes, the opponent will have to make 3 2's. For simplicity, Akron's opponents will then have to score way more efficiently to keep up with Akron, assuming Akron is not having an all-time poor shooting performance. The pace of play is by design to maximize Akron's opportunities to shoot 3s and with the way Akron rebounds the ball, we are able to limit second chance opportunities for the opponent which cripples their equalizer. In the losses we have had so far, we have either shot poorly from 3 (30% or less; Ark St, Princeton) or have been heavily out-rebounded (SMC, Milwaukee, Yale). Those are the only two ways Akron is losing, and only one of them is out of our control. When you think about the game of basketball and all the variables, it's tough to find a system that limits the opponents' ability to affect the outcome. Akron controls the outcome most games and with the shooting personnel we possess, the outcome is going to favor Akron more often than not. 

 

For comparison, I took a look at Groce's 2009-10 and 2011-12 Ohio squads and their national rankings in specific stats. 

 

2009-10
Points Per Game: 57th (73.9)

FGA Per Game: 98th (57.5)

3P%: 71st (36.5%)

3PA Per Game: 67th (20.5)

Possessions Per Game: 70th (71.8)

Rebounds Per Game: 107th (36.3)

Offensive Rebounds Per Game: 201st (9.5)

 

2011-12

Points Per Game: 110th (69.7)

FGA Per Game: 90th (56.7)

3P%: 176th (34.0%)

3PA Per Game: 47th (21.8)

Possessions Per Game: 148th (68.3)

Rebounds Per Game: 191st (33.7)

Offensive Rebounds Per Game: 79th (10.6)

 

Akron 2024-25

Points Per Game: 75th (78.1)

FGA Per Game: 4th (65.8)

3P%: 91st (35.2%)

3PA Per Game: 3rd (32.2)

Possessions Per Game: 30th (75.0)

Rebounds Per Game: 58th (38)

Offensive Rebounds Per Game: 46th (10.9)

 

 

Yes, the game has changed and the numbers are heavily inflated in today's game, but the patterns remain the same. Groce's OU squads were top 100 typically in these metrics. Akron is currently top 100 in all of these metrics. We know the success Groce has had with this type of team - 3 NCAA tourney wins including a near trip to the Elite Eight in 2011-12. The postseason success didn't match their regular season success, as both of Groce's Ohio squads struggled at times during their respective regular seasons. The current Zips aren't perfect by any means, but they are built to make noise in March. Only a couple months away from seeing if that happens.

Edited Thursday at 06:35 PM by Let'sGoZips94

[zippy5]

This offense is the best chance for this roster to succeed

[1981 grad]

Has anyone noticed that Nate has hit only 1 of his last 10 threes.  The answer to that is no.  Why, because other players have been hitting their outside shots.  All we need on this offense is for a few of our three point shooters to get hot during the game so we are shooting around 40% from three.  When you watch the flow of the offense you keep having players pop out to shoot the 3 ball.  It works as long as somebody is hitting.  More importantly, Tavari is the leading scorer and assist leader on this team and he might not be the best point guard on our team.  Everyone on this board know you need a great point guard on the team to be successful.  We got 2 great point guards and one is a true frosh.  This team can be frustrating with their lack of size, defense and rebounding but they can be successful as long as they hit their 3 shot and our point guards play with control and can lead this team.

[Zippy87]

4 hours ago, LZIp said:

Just win baby. Seems like the teams that are dangerous from 3 are the ones who make some noise in March.

 

The issue is we're not that good of a 3-point shooting team. The stat keeps getting thrown out that we're 5th nationally in Made 3's, but we're 120th in 3-Point Percentage. 

[Captain Kangaroo]

6 hours ago, Zips Win! said:

So, who likes the new offense hoisting 41 three pointers up?  Are all of these attempts considered good 

shots?  What defines a good shot in the flow of the offense?  

 

I'm up for a good discussion on this...

41 total is actually pretty good. At halftime we were on a pace for 54!😐

 

It's the Boston Celtics offense. In a few years, any team shooting less than 40 three's in a game will be considered having a "stone age" offense. It's the way of the future.

 

Personally, I don't like it. When the shots aren't falling, which is typically at least 65% of the time, it is completely unfun to watch.

 

Tavari pulled at my heart strings with a few nice mid-range jumpers on Tuesday. God bless him. 😢

[Let'sGoZips94]

28 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

 

The issue is we're not that good of a 3-point shooting team. The stat keeps getting thrown out that we're 5th nationally in Made 3's, but we're 120th in 3-Point Percentage. 

 

91st, and we're 3rd in the country in 3P Made per Game. We're a pretty good 3P shooting team. 

[LZIp]

2 hours ago, Zippy87 said:

 

The issue is we're not that good of a 3-point shooting team. The stat keeps getting thrown out that we're 5th nationally in Made 3's, but we're 120th in 3-Point Percentage. 

Still plenty of time for that to change. We are seeing players improve as the season goes on.

[Zippy87]

2 hours ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

 

91st, and we're 3rd in the country in 3P Made per Game. We're a pretty good 3P shooting team. 

 

ESPN lists 120th. Either way, 91st isn't what I'd call good either. Makes per game doesn't mean much to me if your percentage isn't impressive. It's just chucking. 

 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/stats/team/_/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

 

43 minutes ago, LZIp said:

Still plenty of time for that to change. We are seeing players improve as the season goes on.

 

Absolutely! But to this point, we haven't been a good 3-Point shooting team, and haven't really trended in the right direction, either. 

 

Team 3-point percentage over the last month:

 

Milwaukee - 40%

Yale - 33.3%

Jackson State - 23.1%

Princeton - 30.4%

BGSU - 28.6%

CMU - 43.9%

 

Seth Wilson could make a big difference here, as he did vs CMU, but I need to see it for more than one game first. 

 

[Zips1991]

7 hours ago, LZIp said:

Just win baby. Seems like the teams that are dangerous from 3 are the ones who make some noise in March.

I came here to say this (LOL). I think 3 point heavy mid major teams have a higher chance to pull an upset in March but also a higher chance of getting blown out.

[Illini Zip]

I followed Groce here because I love his offense in its purest form. I know opinions differ and I have friends who think it’s nothing more than rec-ball. But it’s not. Granted it’s not a traditional set offense. Players are making split-second decisions while constantly on the move and depending on what the defense presents. It’s not predictable, but it’s also not random. And it’s a bitch to defend when it’s humming.
 

Is it heavy on the 3 pointer, yes. For many of the reasons @Let'sGoZips94 has already mentioned. But it’s a lot more than that. Ideally, every player in a Zips uniform should be able to drive the ball and score at all three levels. They should be able to pass effectively on the move and post-up their defender. Even Tavari. The constant motion is that of a wash-machine or even better a hand-mixer with 5 beaters. Constant movement, drive and kick. Drive and kick. Driving can lead to lay ups, dunks, floaters, mid-range jumpers, fade-aways or passes back out to an open shooter on the perimeter. You will see some players, especially the point guards given the green light to bomb threes from near the logo. Castaneda and LCJ certainly hit some crazy threes. That pulls the defense out and opens up the driving lanes. You will also see plenty of wrinkles worked in; pick and pop, give and go, inside out, but the drive and kick is the straw that stirs the drink. And what makes all of that driving possible? A deep bench and a commitment to shooting the 3 ball well and often.

 

 

Edited Friday at 11:22 AM by Illini Zip

[Zippy87]

I decided to look back at Groce's teams that won Tournament games at OU, and I don't think they really shot an excessive amount of threes. Obviously the game has changed a ton since then, but I don't think that was the OU formula. 

 

2009-2010

Season: .366%, 20.5 3PA Per Game

 

56.5% (13-23) vs Georgetown (W)

38.5% (10-26) vs Tennessee (L)

 

2011-12

Season: .344%, 31.9 3PA Per Game

 

37.5% (6-16) vs Michigan (W)

50.0% (9-18) vs USF (W)

37.5% (12-35) vs UNC (OTL)

 

 

 

 

 

[Let'sGoZips94]

1 hour ago, Zippy87 said:

 

ESPN lists 120th. Either way, 91st isn't what I'd call good either. Makes per game doesn't mean much to me if your percentage isn't impressive. It's just chucking. 

 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/stats/team/_/table/offensive/sort/threePointFieldGoalPct/dir/desc

 

 

Absolutely! But to this point, we haven't been a good 3-Point shooting team, and haven't really trended in the right direction, either. 

 

Team 3-point percentage over the last month:

 

Milwaukee - 40%

Yale - 33.3%

Jackson State - 23.1%

Princeton - 30.4%

BGSU - 28.6%

CMU - 43.9%

 

Seth Wilson could make a big difference here, as he did vs CMU, but I need to see it for more than one game first. 

 

 

Regardless of which rankings you're looking at, we're in the top 3rd of teams in the country in 3P shooting, and we take nearly the most in the country. That's pretty good. There's room for improvement and we shall see if that improvement happens. I also wonder how much of the shooting struggles is due to the wack schedule. Most of those games had irregular breaks in between and all but one wee on the road. Shooting is often a rhythm-based ability, and the regular MAC schedule might yield more successful numbers. 

 

4 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

I decided to look back at Groce's teams that won Tournament games at OU, and I don't think they really shot an excessive amount of threes. Obviously the game has changed a ton since then, but I don't think that was the OU formula. 

 

2009-2010

Season: .366%, 20.5 3PA Per Game

 

56.5% (13-23) vs Georgetown (W)

38.5% (10-26) vs Tennessee (L)

 

2011-12

Season: .344%, 31.9 3PA Per Game

 

37.5% (6-16) vs Michigan (W)

50.0% (9-18) vs USF (W)

37.5% (12-35) vs UNC (OTL)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm convinced you didn't read a single word of my long post. 😂 OU was top 75 both season in 3PA per game. They didn't shoot it the best during the regular season, although they were still around the 35% mark which is pretty good. The 2009-10 team struggled to win during the regular season as a result, and didn't cross the 20 win threshold until the MAC tournament. The 2011-12 team was full of juniors and experienced guys, which is what led to more regular season success (knew how to overcome poor shooting nights). The key for both teams was they were capable of making the 3 ball, which is why they had so much postseason success. 

 

The volume of 3s was different over a decade ago, that's why those numbers look so different. But the 3 ball was ABSOLUTELY the OU formula. Nearly every player on that team could shoot which is why they had so much success against Zeke Marshall's era of Zips. 

[ZipsFan31]

Shooting 3s has always been the great equalizer.  Shooting 33% from 3 is the same as shooting 50% from 2 

 

I am okay with all 3s you just have go with the flow and hope we shoot 35% to 40% and not 25%

 

in today’s basketball kids grow up wanting to be Steph curry and shooting is now the “cool” thing to do 

[Zippy87]

21 hours ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

Regardless of which rankings you're looking at, we're in the top 3rd of teams in the country in 3P shooting, and we take nearly the most in the country. That's pretty good. There's room for improvement and we shall see if that improvement happens. I also wonder how much of the shooting struggles is due to the wack schedule. Most of those games had irregular breaks in between and all but one wee on the road. Shooting is often a rhythm-based ability, and the regular MAC schedule might yield more successful numbers. 

 

 

They are in the top 3rd of 3-pointers made and attempted, but percentage. That's why I wouldn't call us a good three-point shooting team. I think this is the basis of our disagreement. 

[Zippy87]

21 hours ago, Let'sGoZips94 said:

I'm convinced you didn't read a single word of my long post. 😂 OU was top 75 both season in 3PA per game. They didn't shoot it the best during the regular season, although they were still around the 35% mark which is pretty good. The 2009-10 team struggled to win during the regular season as a result, and didn't cross the 20 win threshold until the MAC tournament. The 2011-12 team was full of juniors and experienced guys, which is what led to more regular season success (knew how to overcome poor shooting nights). The key for both teams was they were capable of making the 3 ball, which is why they had so much postseason success. 

 

The volume of 3s was different over a decade ago, that's why those numbers look so different. But the 3 ball was ABSOLUTELY the OU formula. Nearly every player on that team could shoot which is why they had so much success against Zeke Marshall's era of Zips. 

 

I read your post. Top 75 is very different than Top 5 when we're talking national rankings for 3-Point attempts. 

[Zippy87]

21 hours ago, ZipsFan31 said:

Shooting 3s has always been the great equalizer.  Shooting 33% from 3 is the same as shooting 50% from 2 

 

I am okay with all 3s you just have go with the flow and hope we shoot 35% to 40% and not 25%

 

in today’s basketball kids grow up wanting to be Steph curry and shooting is now the “cool” thing to do 

 

The added issue with chucking 3's is more long rebounds, less second chance points, and easier transition offense for your opponent. 

[RoyalBlu]

If you look around the MAC, pretty much nobody is making even an average (33.3%) about of 3-points as a team, game in and game out. Miami seems decent, but that's about it. Volume shooting is good, I guess, if that's your game. But you have to live and die by it. The fact there are so few even decent post players in the league anymore ... even the 6-7 types ...  means every MAC team is pretty much about the same.

 

You'll look good on a good shooting night, and look awful on a bad shooting night.

 

 

 

[Illini Zip]

I am just thinking about the players Groce has had at Akron. And what hurts the most about losing Harris is I’m afraid we are going to be just too small. I long for a complete team without glaring holes. Last year it was our shooting. Can you imagine this roster?

 

LCJ

Castaneda

Cheese

Young

Tribble

Banks

Dawson (healthy)

Ivey

Ali

Xerius

Freeman

Riak

Aziz

 

Walk ons: Reese, Marshall, Harris, Nate and Tavari.

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 03:12 PM by Illini Zip

[ZipsFan31]

19 hours ago, Zippy87 said:

 

The added issue with chucking 3's is more long rebounds, less second chance points, and easier transition offense for your opponent. 

I would argue long rebounds give you a better chance to get offensive rebounds. 
 

As the defense is normally on the interior boxing out so a long rebound gives a higher chance for the offensive player to secure it giving you more opportunities for second chance points. 
 

for the season Akron is currently shooting 35% from 3. That is efficient. And currently in 14 games we have 188 offensive rebounds. That’s over 13 a game 

last year we had 35 games and 354 offensive rebounds. Which was 10 offensive rebounds a game. 

[kreed5120]

4 minutes ago, ZipsFan31 said:

I would argue long rebounds give you a better chance to get offensive rebounds. 
 

As the defense is normally on the interior boxing out so a long rebound gives a higher chance for the offensive player to secure it giving you more opportunities for second chance points. 
 

for the season Akron is currently shooting 35% from 3. That is efficient. And currently in 14 games we have 188 offensive rebounds. That’s over 13 a game 

last year we had 35 games and 354 offensive rebounds. Which was 10 offensive rebounds a game. 

 

Looking at volume stats and not adjusting them for pace I think is flawed. I don't know how it would translate, but I do agree with you philosophy that long rebounds do create opportunities for second chance points. Namely, open 3s when the defense is scrambling to get reset.