Assessing the Zips Entering MAC Play

[Zippy87]

The Zips enter conference play this week and have two months to come together before the MAC Tournament. There are some pretty glaring issues that will need to be resolved if they want any chance at a March to remember. 

 

1) Point Guard

 

Every Zips team that has won the MAC has had at least decent point guard play. This team doesn't right now. Tribble gives you excellent defense and has become the defacto point guard our of necessity, but he's probably better suited to be the first guard off the bench and playing off ball on a really good team. Scott/Thornton haven't done much against good competition and Tavari isn't trusted to be out there at all. We struggle against on-ball pressure and, at times, to even initiate the offense. Akron may be able to win the MAC in a down year for the conference, but they won't beat anyone good unless at least one of Thornton/Scott/T. Johnson step up and play much better.

 

2) Bench Production

 

Aside from Dawson (who got hurt tonight and hasn't played well in December, there hasn't been much. The guard play mentioned above along with Prather and Lyles not being trusted to play at all has really made the depth of this team pretty thin. Moments like tonight (losing Dawson for most of the game) shine light on that weakness. 

 

3) Controlling the Paint

 

Aside from Freeman (obviously), this team lacks frontcourt talent. Hunter is allergic to the paint, Lyles isn't playing, Baker is redshirting. There just isn't much if opposing teams successfully pull Freeman away from the hoop. SBU outscored us 32-18 in the paint tonight and doubled us up in offensive rebounding. 

 

The team in its current state is probably good enough to grind out a MAC Tournament win because the league is so bad, but they're nowhere close to good enough to upset a higher seed in the NCAA Tournament. I look forward to watching them progress and hope we can become a much better team by the time we go back to Cleveland.

[Illini Zip]

9 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

The Zips enter conference play this week and have two months to come together before the MAC Tournament. There are some pretty glaring issues that will need to be resolved if they want any chance at a March to remember. 

 

1) Point Guard

 

Every Zips team that has won the MAC has had at least decent point guard play. This team doesn't right now. Tribble gives you excellent defense and has become the defacto point guard our of necessity, but he's probably better suited to be the first guard off the bench and playing off ball on a really good team. Scott/Thornton haven't done much against good competition and Tavari isn't trusted to be out there at all. We struggle against on-ball pressure and, at times, to even initiate the offense. Akron may be able to win the MAC in a down year for the conference, but they won't beat anyone good unless at least one of Thornton/Scott/T. Johnson step up and play much better.

 

2) Bench Production

 

Aside from Dawson (who got hurt tonight and hasn't played well in December, there hasn't been much. The guard play mentioned above along with Prather and Lyles not being trusted to play at all has really made the depth of this team pretty thin. Moments like tonight (losing Dawson for most of the game) shine light on that weakness. 

 

3) Controlling the Paint

 

Aside from Freeman (obviously), this team lacks frontcourt talent. Hunter is allergic to the paint, Lyles isn't playing, Baker is redshirting. There just isn't much if opposing teams successfully pull Freeman away from the hoop. SBU outscored us 32-18 in the paint tonight and doubled us up in offensive rebounding. 

 

The team in its current state is probably good enough to grind out a MAC Tournament win because the league is so bad, but they're nowhere close to good enough to upset a higher seed in the NCAA Tournament. I look forward to watching them progress and hope we can become a much better team by the time we go back to Cleveland.

I agree. 

[Reslife4Life]

I feel like Scott and Thornton have played well so far. They are much better than what we had in sammy and Hank at this time last year. They do make some mistakes but I think they have been playing hard and contributing in smaller roles (which is okay when you have a team of Enrique, Ali, Sammy, and Greg already)

[Zippy87]

Take away the Heidelberg and Miami-Hamilton games and these are their numbers:

 

Scott

4.1 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 1.3 APG, 0.8 TOPG

 

Thornton

 

3.3 PPG, 1.5 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.3 TOPG

[LoyalZIP]

Good, not great. Lots of room to grow. Much further along than the last 2 seasons going into MAC play. Real tough trip for the opener. 

[Reslife4Life]

7 minutes ago, Zippy87 said:

Take away the Heidelberg and Miami-Hamilton games and these are their numbers:

 

Scott

4.1 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 1.3 APG, 0.8 TOPG

 

Thornton

 

3.3 PPG, 1.5 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.3 TOPG

I think they just play above their numbers. They just aren’t going to score a lot when you have Ali and Enrique on the floor doing a lot of the scoring

[Zippy87]

15 minutes ago, Reslife4Life said:

I think they just play above their numbers. They just aren’t going to score a lot when you have Ali and Enrique on the floor doing a lot of the scoring

 

Maybe I'm spoiled by two decades of really good guard play, but I don't see it. I expected more from both.

[csims0917]

Very tough non conference as planned by Groce. I think it definitely challenged the team as well as Groce himself. Nobody in the MAC had that many battles like we did. We will see how the guards perform and check back in February. 

[clarkwgriswold]

I think the following is a very important quote from Groce in the St. B article-

 “Obviously, getting Ali after eight games has been helpful at both ends of the floor. Trying to figure out our combinations and all that is maybe a little bit more delayed than normal just because he didn't play the first eight. But I think we're headed in the right direction.”

 

Translation- they are a work in progress.  I have every confidence they'll get there.

 

Quote two that I liked from Groce-

"“I've got to do a better job putting Ali in a little bit better position there. I put him in a tough spot. We didn't execute the down screen great. They pushed the catch out. The ball got deflected. Now it's in the back court. The timing of the action's off a little bit, but that's not on Ali. I've got to help Ali a little bit more there.”

 

I can't imagine there's a better way to teach accountability to a group of young men than by taking accountability yourself.  This guy has a future in motivational speaking and team building if he ever gives up coaching.

[Let'sGoZips94]

11 hours ago, Reslife4Life said:

I think they just play above their numbers. They just aren’t going to score a lot when you have Ali and Enrique on the floor doing a lot of the scoring

 

We scored 61 pts yesterday, with Scott & Thornton going a combined 2-6 from the field and 0-4 from 3. I know Ali Ali went 7-17 from the field and 4-9 from 3, but there's still plenty of room for scoring from the guards. Scott misses way too many 3s with his line drive shot. They're both solid defensively, so it's a bit easier to live with the lack of offensive contributions, but I can't give them anything better than a C+/B- grade. HUGE swing and a miss by Groce to not have a scorer in here to replace X2.0. 

 

We have 1 Q1 loss and 3 Q2 losses. All but 1 of those losses are single possession defeats, all 4 are road/neutral site losses, and all 4 came without Ali Ali. Eye test says we're the best team in the MAC. We now enter MAC play with a chance to prove the eye test is accurate. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Let'sGoZips94

[clarkwgriswold]

They still need another guy to play as a big.  At his height, Sammy needs to be more than a 3 or 4 rebound guy or someone like Nate or Dawson needs 'play bigger" to be the guy.

 

I had high hopes for Shammah but it looks like he's just going to be an 18 to 20 minute guy.  We may not see all of his talent until Tribble graduates.

 

Nate always seems to be on the cusp of breaking out but never seems to quite get there.  Maybe being on the floor so much with the vets will prepare him to do that next year when he becomes the "vet."

 

I'm a little surprised that with this team's depth we haven't seen more pressure defense.  They've been good in the half court defense but I thought we might see them jump into a press occasionally.

 

We all want someone to step into X's shoes and seem to want to judge Thornton and Scott in X's shadow.  I think we all forget that X's start with the Zips wasn't great.  It was pretty damn average or worse as he settled in (and many were judging him against LCJ!).  As such, maybe we need to give Thornton and Scott a little more time.

Edited December 31, 2023 by clarkwgriswold

[Blue & Gold]

23 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

They still need another guy to play as a big.  At his height, Sammy needs to be more than a 3 or 4 rebound guy or someone like Nate or Dawson needs 'play bigger" to be the guy.

Wouldn't Aziz Bandaogo and Jermaine Marshall be looking awfully good in blue & gold right now? 😩

 

23 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

I had high hopes for Shammah but it looks like he's just going to be an 18 to 20 minute guy.  We may not see all of his talent until Tribble graduates.

I like Shammah more than Garvin Clarke... but barely.  I've been rather disappointed in him honestly.  Love his defense (I liked Clarke's defense).  I do think Shammah finishes better at the rim than Garvin, is more athletic and a better ball handler. 

 

23 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

Nate always seems to be on the cusp of breaking out but never seems to quite get there.  Maybe being on the floor so much with the vets will prepare him to do that next year when he becomes the "vet."

You stole my words in regards to Nate.  He's playing with veterans & it just doesn't doesn't look like he feels like a team leader.  Hopefully next season he'll take a big jump when he's the locker room veteran.

 

23 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

I'm a little surprised that with this team's depth we haven't seen more pressure defense.  They've been good in the half court defense but I thought we might see them jump into a press occasionally.

But I don't know if we're a deep team, or not.  It's been quite the disappointment that none of Tavari, Lyles, or Prather appear to be at all serviceable at this level.  I had relatively high hopes for Tavari coming into the year but he's yet to duplicate last year's early season game vs. Nevada.  That was a long time ago now.  And that Nevada team was as good & athletic as any team we've faced since. Weird.

 

[Zippy87]

2 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

They still need another guy to play as a big.  At his height, Sammy needs to be more than a 3 or 4 rebound guy or someone like Nate or Dawson needs 'play bigger" to be the guy.

 

I had high hopes for Shammah but it looks like he's just going to be an 18 to 20 minute guy.  We may not see all of his talent until Tribble graduates.

 

Nate always seems to be on the cusp of breaking out but never seems to quite get there.  Maybe being on the floor so much with the vets will prepare him to do that next year when he becomes the "vet."

 

I'm a little surprised that with this team's depth we haven't seen more pressure defense.  They've been good in the half court defense but I thought we might see them jump into a press occasionally.

 

We all want someone to step into X's shoes and seem to want to judge Thornton and Scott in X's shadow.  I think we all forget that X's start with the Zips wasn't great.  It was pretty damn average or worse as he settled in (and many were judging him against LCJ!).  As such, maybe we need to give Thornton and Scott a little more time.

 

I was very surprised we didn't add a big this off-season. I thought it was an issue last year. Nothing special, either, just a guy with size who can defend and rebound. I wonder if they expected Baker to play?

[clarkwgriswold]

2 hours ago, Zippy87 said:

 

I was very surprised we didn't add a big this off-season. I thought it was an issue last year. Nothing special, either, just a guy with size who can defend and rebound. I wonder if they expected Baker to play?

I think he could be a decent big man.  Groce must have thought he wouldn't see the floor much so he gave him the choice to take the red shirt.  I guess the lack of spare bigs won't be quite as much of an issue in MAC play.

[Illini Zip]

I think everyone has successfully assessed where we are heading into league play. And we have seen Groce reinvent the Zips multiple times between now and March so I’m not concerned yet. 
 

For me, I liked seeing Hunter get into the fray and grab 5 rebounds yesterday. He needs to keep on improving his rebounding and midrange offense.

 

Neither Nate or Dawson are playing to their own standards. We need them to be consistent contributors. We can’t afford for them to disappear for whole games like they have.

 

Finally, we need one of the point guards to rise to the challenge. These guys need to be in the gym shooting 3’s every chance they get and earn that right to shoot more during a game. Having a point guard that can’t be left alone because he’ll kill you with haymakers is a staple to this offense. This can still happen between now and March.

Go Zips!!!

[Hilltopper]

Mike Dawson has not been able to get into the flow following his first few games. He is shooting 32% from the field and from 3pt. If you take away those first few games it's even worse. Thornton and T Johnson have not show any kind of consistency. Neither has shown the ability to take the ball to the basket and shoot or dish to the open man. They are too prone to turnovers and defensive lapses.  We lack a ball handler who can break the press or get open on inbounds plays without drama. Teams with big athletic front courts have given us trouble. We have size but not strength. I like our odds of winning the MAC but it won't be pretty. Lots of close games grinding out wins.

[RoyalBlu]

 

All the above issues are true .....

 

INCLUDING AKRON IS STILL THE NO. 1 FAVORITE

 

After that

 

2. Toledo

 

3. Bowling Green

 

4. NIU

 

5. Kent (too many injuries)

 

6. Ohio

 

Everybody else.

[zipsrule]

20 minutes ago, RoyalBlu said:

 

All the above issues are true .....

 

INCLUDING AKRON IS STILL THE NO. 1 FAVORITE

 

After that

 

2. Toledo

 

3. Bowling Green

 

4. NIU

 

5. Kent (too many injuries)

 

6. Ohio

 

Everybody else.

I'm not sure I'm ready to put BG at #3.  They have 9 wins, but look at their schedule.  Until I see them win some conference games, I'd be more worried about Kent and Ohio.

 

[clarkwgriswold]

12 minutes ago, zipsrule said:

I'm not sure I'm ready to put BG at #3.  They have 9 wins, but look at their schedule.  Until I see them win some conference games, I'd be more worried about Kent and Ohio.

 

 

 

As much as I hate Mr. Pinky he always seems to have the Flushes in the mix.  As for NIU and BG I'll have to see it to believe it.  NIU has played a less than stellar schedule and has dropped 5 or their last six, beating only Calumet College, an NAIA program.  BG just never seems to get there.  Maybe a change at the helm helps, but their schedule has been pretty damn weak.

[RoyalBlu]

They got some dudes ... Hill, Agee and Spurgin would start on every team in the MAC ... outside of Akron .... and Hill would start at Akron, too.

[Zip JD]

21 hours ago, Zippy87 said:

Take away the Heidelberg and Miami-Hamilton games and these are their numbers:

 

Scott

4.1 PPG, 2.0 RPG, 1.3 APG, 0.8 TOPG

 

Thornton

 

3.3 PPG, 1.5 RPG, 2.1 APG, 1.3 TOPG

They play hard and appear to be giving their best effort, but neither provides any threat of offense.  Other teams lay off of them and neither has shown they can regularly hit an outside shot consistently.  We got spoiled watching X and LCJ these past years, but as of this post there is not PG on this team even close to being a regular offensive contributor.  

[Zip JD]

3 minutes ago, Zip JD said:

They play hard and appear to be giving their best effort, but neither provides any threat of offense.  Other teams lay off of them and neither has shown they can regularly hit an outside shot consistently.  We got spoiled watching X and LCJ these past years, but as of this post there is not PG on this team even close to being a regular offensive contributor.  

I should have mentioned that with the attempts to get him minutes at the point last year behind X, I really thought Tavari would be a factor.  I wasn't expecting huge stats, but I thought he would be someone that could come in an make some open 3's when called upon.  That ship appears to have sailed.  

[1981 grad]

I hate to be pessimistic but without a true point guard I still think we will struggle at times as we did on the last play with St. Bony.   Scott & Thornton have been ok at best.  If Groce had any faith in them they would have been handling the ball on the last play.  Tribble is not a true point guard and does not have a great outside shot.  Tavari went from being a starting point guard to playing just a couple of minutes a game.  His confidence must be shot and of all the guards is probably the worst defender because of his size.  Ali is a small forward playing guard.  Groce is putting his 5 best players on the floor because they play good defense but at times there is no flow because we do not have a true point guard that can handle the ball, distribute, and shoot.  We know what X did for this team the last few years and that piece is sorely missing from this team.  

Edited January 1 by 1981 grad

[clarkwgriswold]

Thornton and Scott have been less that expected.  They're also not getting many minutes, each averaging less that 20 minutes a game.  It takes a while to build Groce's trust and become an important part.  Right now, he's going with the guys he trusts and that's why Tribble is playing the point (he's always going to be on the floor whether or not he's the point).

 

When LCJ left, we lamented our point guard play until X hit his stride.  When Big Dog graduated, we lamented the drop off in post play.   When McLaughlin left, we missed the great point guard play.  When Joe Jakubick left, we missed high scoring guard play.  I suspect when Len Paul graduated, we probably missed top notch small forward play.  Now we're missing X's play.  You always miss the play and contribution of legends.

 

Scott and Thornton have career three point percentages that are nearly identical to the Zips average this year.  I'll be more worried if they haven't settled in by the end middle of February.

[Zippy87]

31 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

Thornton and Scott have been less that expected.  They're also not getting many minutes, each averaging less that 20 minutes a game.  It takes a while to build Groce's trust and become an important part.  Right now, he's going with the guys he trusts and that's why Tribble is playing the point (he's always going to be on the floor whether or not he's the point).

 

When LCJ left, we lamented our point guard play until X hit his stride.  When Big Dog graduated, we lamented the drop off in post play.   When McLaughlin left, we missed the great point guard play.  When Joe Jakubick left, we missed high scoring guard play.  I suspect when Len Paul graduated, we probably missed top notch small forward play.  Now we're missing X's play.  You always miss the play and contribution of legends.

 

Scott and Thornton have career three point percentages that are nearly identical to the Zips average this year.  I'll be more worried if they haven't settled in by the end middle of February.

 

I think what worries me is that I don't feel that I've even seen hints of either one figuring it out. X didn't take off right away, but he had a few standout games during the acclimation process where the talent was evident. Same with LCJ. Scott and Thornton haven't passed the eye test for me.

 

I'm trying to stay optimistic, because if neither step up and Tavari stays stuck to the bench, that'd be a pretty big recruiting miss for this staff. Let's hope one can take the job and run with it.